INDUSTRY FORUM

Comments

  • Pointgiven

    • Ranked #82

      RG Tiered Ranking

    I am seeing a lot of exact line up on FD over the past couple years. Typically these line ups are typically 20 or 30 points below my score., so it has no meaning to me. What concerns me is there are a few so called RG “experts” that are associated with these line ups along with a ton of non-RG members. How is this helping the RG community??

  • tonytone1908

    building a larger prize pool for you for starters.

  • Jvanspro

    Blah, blah. Who cares

  • Roma315

    This has been going on for years. You are the first person to complain that they are under you, instead of ahead.

  • Mindofigor

    What sport? If nba, a lot of users play the optimal lineup using bbm projections… see it all the time

  • thedude404

    • 2015 FanDuel NBA Playboy Mansion Finalist

    Ran into this last night in a single entry contest. Moklovin, a highly ranked DFS player, is selling lineups (it’s on his twitter page). Looks like about 25 people got on the train last night in my single entry NBA contest. What baffles me is if you are so highly ranked and raking in the cash playing dfs, why would you want to split your winnings with 25 other people to make a couple hundred bucks? Zero chance Fanduel will do a thing about it. So I guess our only options are to quit or to deal with the fact a very good DFS player is out there selling lineups.

    What is more interesting is that a very visible and ranked rotogrinders contributor was on the train as well. Guess he didnt have time to do his own research last night…..

  • blenderhd

    • 239

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #25

      RG Tiered Ranking

    Moklovin doesn’t sell lineups. It’s an imposter Twitter account. There are many accounts like that posing as high ranked users (Awesemo, ChipotleAddict, etc.) trying to con people into thinking it’s them.

  • thedude404

    • 2015 FanDuel NBA Playboy Mansion Finalist

    Actually looking at the results, there are 3 highly recognizable names from rotogrinders that used the same lineup. This being a 2,857 single entry contest, I find it hard to believe that 25 people fell upon the same lineup as a lineup sellers lineup. Maybe it’s just a coincidence? LOL!

  • thedude404

    • 2015 FanDuel NBA Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @blenderhd said...

    Moklovin doesn’t sell lineups. It’s an imposter Twitter account. There are many accounts like that posing as high ranked users (Awesemo, ChipotleAddict, etc.) trying to con people into thinking it’s them.

    Then how does one explain Moklovin being tied with these other 24 players? And within this group of 25 people I know for a fact at least 3 of them have interacted with each other for years.

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    Thedude, last night was very easy to land on the same lineup as others. Doesn’t matter if there were 11 games, the NO/GS game was where all the value was.

    On Fanduel I landed on the same lineup that Moklovin did and I’ve never spoken or even met the guy in my life.

    Face it, people who take DFS serious all have their own projection systems but even if they are have different projections, I’m sure they are pretty close. I’m fairly certain a guy like Kenrich Williams popped in almost everyone’s ‘model’ last night. Heck, all the NO/GS guys did.

    I’m not saying there aren’t people who talk, and once again as I always try to explain to people, that is not against the sites policies (https://www.draftkings.com/community-guidelines)

    Also, as Blender said, we are constantly finding and reporting accounts posing as Rotogrinders and selling lineups, along with many top player names. You can always check by clicking their usernames on this site to find their ‘real’ twitter account.

  • blenderhd

    • 239

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #25

      RG Tiered Ranking

    To piggyback on Bill’s reply, I had the same exact cash lineup on DK last night as PapaGates, Hoop and a few others, and I have never had an interaction with them ever before anywhere. Several other “top” players, who I also have never met/talked to before ever, had a close 2v2 of my lineup.

    Yes, there are lineup sellers out there. I think it’s a poor experience for inexperienced users to see these “trains” in cash contests. I wish the sites did a better job of policing it. But they’re typically losing players, though. In the long run, you should be skilled enough to beat them.

    Yes, there are skilled players that do share cash lineups together on occasion. I think it’s a poor experience for inexperienced users and I wish the sites did a better job of policing this too. But this type of sharing is FAR FAR FAR less common than people think. When you see top players with the same cash lineup, it’s overwhelmingly likely that good DFS players are good DFS players for a reason. They can identify value and an optimal construction (especially with projections) consistently more often than most, and therefore can come up with the same exact optimal lineup on many, many slates.

    There’s something in logic called Occam’s razor. Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. The one that requires the smallest number of assumptions is usually correct. The more assumptions (conspiracy theories) you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation.

  • thedude404

    • 2015 FanDuel NBA Playboy Mansion Finalist

    Thanks for the replies….feel a bit better now and thanks for speaking up. I went back through the contest up to the cash line of 645th place (2,857 person single entry) and counted the number of tied scores (note I did not check each lineup to see if they were matching, except for the 25 person tie) as I knew 25 ties would really be quite the outlier. So I dont think you can blame me for being a little suspicious. Twenty five person tie was the outlier, with the next closest being a 14 person tie, which happened twice. There were also two 12-person ties, an 11 person tie, and a 10 person tie. Then it just increases as you would normally expect it to from there.

    EDIT: Also I might add I’m not one to normally go looking for this type of thing night in and night out. It just so happens that this 25 person tie was near the top of the leaderboard, so of course I’m going to notice it and red flags are going to start going off in my head.

  • DFSx42

    the dude, i’m with you, there are a lot of accounts that indeed work together – having said that, I’ve been accused of colluding with people I’ve never met nor communicated with before simply because over the course of a week our cash lines will match up once or twice.

    There are some accounts where it’s literally every slate, that is 100% either working together or running same projections but you also got to realize that it’s not out of this world for two strangers to wind up with very similar projections that leads to identical lines because at the end of the day, they are all starting from the same source material.

    in fact, whenever i do a high dollar single entry, i’ll be paying a lot of attention to what the other guys submitted and if i see a lot of mirroring then I’ll use late swap to pivot out of the train if it looks like I’m part of one – I’m forced to do this at least half the time

    i honestly view this as a badge of honor, when i have the same cash or single entry line as papagates or moklovin, it’s a validation of my process

    but to be clear, there are 100% people who do work together and do submit the exact same lineup each and every night – some of them even openly speak about working together with others, some have even been removed from contests for colluding together but still allowed to play and share lineups today – it’s an insult to the integrity of the game

  • cctravis

    In a fanduel single entry, the other day in NBA me and awesomo had the exact same lineup.We for sure don’t know each other and I don’t even use his projections or products.

    The point being is it is not that hard to end up with the same lineup on occasion.

  • NoLimits0

    @Mindofigor said...

    What sport? If nba, a lot of users play the optimal lineup using bbm projections… see it all the time

    Is bbm the website most pros use?

    Maybe everyone should just use bbm and everyone loses the rake

  • NoLimits0

    @thedude404 said...

    Then how does one explain Moklovin being tied with these other 24 players? And within this group of 25 people I know for a fact at least 3 of them have interacted with each other for years.

    Can you elaborate on the usernames of these guys?

    I’m just curious. Not trying to accuse anyone just wondering the names you found.

    I saw tonight papagates, bric75, moklovin, and 3rd and schlong all had the same lineup for example. Not accusing them of anything just stating the users.

    Maybe if they have the same lineups consistently it isn’t they collude but more like they just pay bbm and then get the lineups from there which is funny because if they do that and make money we all should do it until we all just lose the rake. Iterative game theory at its finest.

    Going back to your original post, moklovin does seem like the type that would pay a website for like projections and then he would just run the optimizer. Never struck me as someone who actually knew basketball or even ever picked one up. This could explain all the people having the same lineup.

  • querb

    623 way tie for first in the $2 fanduel double up last night

  • bigez952

    @querb said...

    623 way tie for first in the $2 fanduel double up last night

    As long as there are publicly available projection systems and optimizers this will never change. It is not against the rules and sites embrace this type of play so I have come to the conclusion to just stop playing double ups which are glorified H2H’s vs. the optimal lineup and just play GPP’s where I want these massive optimal trains taking up 20% of the contest so on the nights I can beat that lineup I can shoot up the leaderboard.

  • livetorace17

    Presented here without comment…

    https://twitter.com/GiantBallofOil/status/1199425979103555584?s=20

  • thedude404

    • 2015 FanDuel NBA Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @NoLimits0 said...

    Can you elaborate on the usernames of these guys?

    I’m just curious. Not trying to accuse anyone just wondering the names you found.

    I saw tonight papagates, bric75, moklovin, and 3rd and schlong all had the same lineup for example. Not accusing them of anything just stating the users.

    Maybe if they have the same lineups consistently it isn’t they collude but more like they just pay bbm and then get the lineups from there which is funny because if they do that and make money we all should do it until we all just lose the rake. Iterative game theory at its finest.

    Going back to your original post, moklovin does seem like the type that would pay a website for like projections and then he would just run the optimizer. Never struck me as someone who actually knew basketball or even ever picked one up. This could explain all the people having the same lineup.

    Going forward, I’d rather not “out” anyone without knowing what is going on. But its the usual suspects……i suspect they are using the same “optimal” lineup.

  • querb

    A 2700 way tie for the last cash spot in the big $2 double up last night. Those 2700 ish entries only returned $3.18 each. The fanduel nba product is broken trash. I’m finished with cash games for that sport on that site

  • Domigator

    Draftkings is just as bad well over 300 same lineup on a 11 game slate last night in the $10 SE double up.

  • superstars92

    • 115

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #78

      RG Tiered Ranking

    @Domigator said...

    Draftkings is just as bad well over 300 same lineup on a 11 game slate last night in the $10 SE double up.

    Do you guys read the other threads here?

    You shoulda checked out my post at like 7:30 yesterday, I knew what everyone had in their lineup before the lineups even locked yesterday because it was obvious everyone just clicked “optimize” at 6:55 and put in the same lineup with the late Brogdon news. Pretty much I just read the threads here and I was convinced on what was going on and it turned out to be true. It’s not a problem with DK or FD, they can’t do anything about it.

    It’s crazy for sure, like 40% of my double up guys had the same lineup, that’s pretty much why you shouldn’t play cash games.

  • rausch180

    @superstars92 said...

    It’s not a problem with DK or FD, they can’t do anything about it.

    They can, they set the rules as to the minimum requirements of a lineup tool as: “must require multiple, substantive, independent decisions by the users in order to generate a lineup”.

    That is interpreted as remove 2 players that aren’t playing and you’re good to go. It’s absolutely trivial rather than substantive and barely independent given so many are doing it. Change is needed by DK and FD on what is allowed, with a stricter definition of substantive. Coming up with rules that aren’t easily abused is the problem, especially when once a method to get round them is discovered there will be threads explaining exactly how for everyone to read!

  • Njsum1

    @rausch180 said...

    They can, they set the rules as to the minimum requirements of a lineup tool as: “must require multiple, substantive, independent decisions by the users in order to generate a lineup”

    They would have to have access to every optimizer on the market to enforce this. And what happens when someone who doesn’t use an optimizer lands in the same lineup as an optimizer and is disqualified from a contest erroneously? Which happens more frequently then one would think. There would be uproar.

    @superstars92 is right, there’s nothing they can do. You can either beat the optimizer or don’t play cash. People don’t need to play cash games.

  • superstars92

    • 115

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #78

      RG Tiered Ranking

    @Njsum1 said...

    They would have to have access to every optimizer on the market to enforce this. And what happens when someone who doesn’t use an optimizer lands in the same lineup as an optimizer and is disqualified from a contest erroneously? Which happens more frequently then one would think. There would be uproar.

    @superstars92 is right, there’s nothing they can do. You can either beat the optimizer or don’t play cash. People don’t need to play cash games.

    Yea I think he’s saying like instead of excluding 2 players (which is really silly, since you could just exclude two players who are out like DeAndre Ayton and Stephen Curry) and running “opitimize”, he’s saying do something where you have to lock in 2 players yourself. That could kind of work, except it wouldn’t be much different since everyone should know the obvious plays like Holiday and Ish, and the rest would be the hard part but the optimizer will fill it for you anyways. It might eliminate a few of the really no-clue players, but most would still have that lineup. It’s just impossible for DK/FD to do anything, although moving it to the 2 player lock instead of the 2 player exclude could eliminate a few of the dupes (like maybe 10-15%).

    I saw some weird propositions like NoLimits said to charge an inordinate amount for optimizers. That could work in a a strictly theoretical sense (it’s like a heavy tax), but the problem is no optimizer site would ever do that in reality because that would drive away their customers (well they technically have to find the point where supply meets demand, so I guess the price could be higher in the future, but it won’t be like the super heavy tax proposed by him). You could also have a RobinHood come along and give everyone free optimizers, etc. But the best solution is don’t play so much cash which you suggested a lot in your previous posts. I find it hard DK/FD can really do much here in reality, but there are a few suggestions (like above) which could help it a bit but nothing sigifnicant to the point where these posts don’t come up every other day.

    Personally I just lose money either way you know me njsum. When Harden has 80 FPs I choose 0% of him, when he has 60 FPs, I choose 30% of him, so I’m hopeless with or without optimizers.

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