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  • monaco712

    Coors field slates can drive DFS players crazy.. 46 runs in 4 games for the Nationals. I do not like
    it at all that half the season revolves around one stadium. It is more of a problem for cash games
    you almost have no choice but to stack the field or lose. It just gets boring and takes away
    from the strategy.
    My suggestion is for the industry is to give us a choice. Similar to the way FD gives you the option
    of late swap or no late swap, they should give us the option of including or excluding Coors field.
    For example If it is a 15 game slate just give the option of a 14 game slate minus Coors.
    No matter how high the salaries go there will be a majority of Coors stacks every time the Rockies
    are at home.
    Any thoughts?

  • Roma315

    I’ve actually faired well this year playing the Coors pitchers (Col not opposing). Typically if Cargo, Arenado, Blackmon, DJ, Story (depending on his place in the order) are healthy I’ll play them in a few lineups depending on the matchup.

  • Roma315

    @monaco712 said...

    Coors field slates can drive DFS players crazy.. 46 runs in 4 games for the Nationals. I do not like
    it at all that half the season revolves around one stadium. It is more of a problem for cash games
    you almost have no choice but to stack the field or lose. It just gets boring and takes away
    from the strategy.
    My suggestion is for the industry is to give us a choice. Similar to the way FD gives you the option
    of late swap or no late swap, they should give us the option of including or excluding Coors field.
    For example If it is a 15 game slate just give the option of a 14 game slate minus Coors.
    No matter how high the salaries go there will be a majority of Coors stacks every time the Rockies
    are at home.
    Any thoughts?

    The late swap/no late swap is a horrible position. The prize pools aren’t in the same stratosphere.

  • monaco712

    @Roma315 said...

    The late swap/no late swap is a horrible position. The prize pools aren’t in the same stratosphere.

    It was not a position I just brought it up that you had a choice if you don’t like
    it don’t play it.

  • TnRiddles

    • Blogger of the Month

    @monaco712 said...

    It was not a position I just brought it up that you had a choice if you don’t like
    it don’t play it.

    oh , you still have a choice to play or not to play any slate……but , I would venture to say that Coors stacks have won very few slates this year

  • Njsum1

    Nothing has changed since monaco712’s original post. I don’t care that Bettis and Tehran pitched a gem last night, or scoring has been down at the field. @dds2190 made a good point that you generally don’t want to stack against a pitcher in Coors unless you would target them outside of Coors as well. If you followed that line of thinking it probably served you well this season.

    However, the reason why nothing has changed is that the oddsmakers won’t drop the game totals. And most sharp and non sharp players alike believe that Vegas generally knows what they’re doing and generally won’t ignore Vegas lines. So even if we don’t want to, we still have to account for a ballpark just because it’s a ballpark, simply because the oddsmakers still give credence to Coors being the best environment for runs in baseball.

    No one is arguing that you have to stack Coors to win, or that’s even a good strategy, yet due to the high run totals, most players will make an extra lineup just to get some exposure regardless of how good the pitchers are as the game could always erupt for 20 runs just because it’s Coors. Unless the oddsmakers feel that Coors just isn’t Coors anymore and start lowering the totals when there is either good pitching on the mound or bad hitting teams playing, Coors will always be a factor one has to consider even when in another environment such consideration would be unwarranted. And that was the premise of the original argument, is that games and Coors have to be considered and accounted for, even when they shouldn’t be, due to the high totals.

  • monaco712

    You are probably right which is ironic since they are a playoff contender but I
    would imagine the down seasons by Cargo and Story are big factors.
    As a cash player who automatically fades Coors sometimes it works out
    and sometimes it does not. But it is generally the first decisions a DFSer will
    make when Coors is on the slate whether to pay up or fade.
    All of the RG analyst shows and articles today will begin with what to do with Coors
    because as always it will have the highest implied total.
    Not because of the teams but because of the field.

  • TnRiddles

    • Blogger of the Month

    ppl get blinded by the game total….look more at the totals for each team instead…..there are plenty of teams right there with Coors as far as implied run total. And the chances of both teams just going off in Coors is low these days and the prices are just dumb. I mean who in their right mind will pay 5100 for Parra tonight while Bellinger is just a few hundred more? Especially on a large slate , there are optons that are better and cheaper than Coors

  • monaco712

    @Njsum1 said...

    However, the reason why nothing has changed is that the oddsmakers won’t drop the game totals. And most sharp and non sharp players alike believe that Vegas generally knows what they’re doing and generally won’t ignore Vegas lines. So even if we don’t want to, we still have to account for a ballpark just because it’s a ballpark, simply because the oddsmakers still give credence to Coors being the best environment for runs in baseball

    Just saw your post you are absolutely correct.

  • Roma315

    It still takes strategy which is to play Coors stacks or not. I typically enter 20 lineups with different stacks and some with almost no stack of players. When Coors is in play I will always toss a Coors stack just in case. Either way it’s a fun discussion but imo making a slate without Coors starts down a slippery slope.
    I mean last year Coors stacks worked. I had them stacked in the game I think they had 6-8 homers. It helped me win over $1k because I had them stacked different ways and my flyer pitchers did well. If I would have swapped Bautista 0-4 with Betts 3 homers it would have been a 5 figure pay day. I would have placed 1st, 2nd, 5th and 6th.

  • TnRiddles

    • Blogger of the Month

    We all know Coors has potential , but we should all also know that their prices are inflated and there are multiple options with the lack of pitching in the league and major offenses everywhere….thats why I believe that having non Coors slates just for the sake of it is just going too far

  • Njsum1

    TnRiddles…I completely agree with what you wrote, I’d take Bellinger every time over Parra or a lesser player hitting in Coors (regardless of the outcome) and that other games offer the same potential as far as implied run total. I also don’t think they should make slates with no Coors, my argument was that accounting for a ballpark just because it’s a ballpark is annoying. And the reason you have to account for it is because the oddsmakers always put a high total on the game regardless the quality of the hitting or pitching.

    Roma315 wrote, he’ll always throw one Coors lineup in there just in case, even if he doesn’t believe it to be optimal, just because it’s Coors and can go off. And that’s the basis for the argument, is that many DFSers feel compelled to make at least 1 Coors lineup (myself included) yet generally don’t feel that way about any other ballparks that are also good hitting environments. And as I stated before the reason for this is that the oddsmakers keep the total at Coors high regardless, and most sharp and non sharp DFS players alike understand that Vegas is generally a good guideline and it’s not often wise to ignore Vegas’ research.

  • superstars92

    @Njsum1 said...

    Roma315 wrote, he’ll always throw one Coors lineup in there just in case, even if he doesn’t believe it to be optimal, just because it’s Coors and can go off. And that’s the basis for the argument, is that many DFSers feel compelled to make at least 1 Coors lineup (myself included) yet generally don’t feel that way about any other ballparks that are also good hitting environments

    Except there’s at least 1 ballpark that’s been better than Coors this season =).

  • Paymelate

    Just fade coors (Always)! Look at it like this if the stack goes off (it will be high own anyways) therefore you won’t cash as high anyways. If the stack fails you’ll just be in a better spot. The worst feeling in the world is stacking coors and they don’t go off for 10+ runs because all of their bats is price $5,000+. In my opinion :)

  • yisman

    @depalma13 said...

    That depends if you hit your stack. Winning $300 – $400 once can cover a lot of $4 stacks.

    I don’t think it matters how you play it.

    Based on how Coors has played this season, if you’ve stacked it every available time this year, you’re losing.

  • tprokopenko

    @Njsum1 said...

    However, the reason why nothing has changed is that the oddsmakers won’t drop the game totals. And most sharp and non sharp players alike believe that Vegas generally knows what they’re doing and generally won’t ignore Vegas lines.

    Agreed, and I don’t understand this logic. People that use Vegas lines for DFS seem to think that Vegas is ‘predicting’ an outcome, and clearly don’t understand how lines and odds work.

  • EadesScience

    Howdy There,

    I guess that I am confused on the Coors Field Dilemma. Are we approaching this argument from the standpoint of only entering one lineup? If not, then what is the big deal? Invest a share or two in Coors and move on to the less popular stacks I am thinking. Or maybe it is like tonight in the Record Breaker at 762 bucks an entry and the haunting of Coors is gut wrenching because your bankroll is not deep enough (like mine would be) to take a chance or two. This is why I play low entry with 20 max entry GPPs. I enter every single night expecting to lose my 5 bucks and consequently the going off or not going off of Coors is of no worry to me. Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose and life is good.

    Ricky

    Ricky

  • monaco712

    @TnRiddles said...

    thats why I believe that having non Coors slates just for the sake of it is just going too far

    After reading all the opinions I would tend to agree. As long as the salaries stay elevated as somewhat of a deterrent. Remember my biggest issue was that it takes away from the
    strategy when such a large majority of players just stack Coors
    but as the season has unfolded it has not been as prevalent
    as in past.

  • bigez952

    @monaco712 said...

    It was not a position I just brought it up that you had a choice if you don’t like
    it don’t play it.

    You have that option every day to play or not play the slate. The main slate should always include all the games in that general timeframe and if you want to avoid a certain game play a smaller slate that doesn’t have it or don’t play at all and wait until the Rockies go on a road trip. Making more slates and more options will just divide the player pool further resulting in smaller contests for everyone which in my opinion would not be a good thing.

  • Heterodox

    @superstars92 said...

    Except there’s at least 1 ballpark that’s been better than Coors this season =).

    It just doesn’t matter. The fundamentals of Coors don’t change. The air is thin, and the outfield is huge. Results can be fluky. It’s still a place where bad teams can explode, and elite batters are near must-play status. Not exactly must-play, of course, but close to it. There was a site that used to use a weather metric called air density index, which I thought was a standard metric, but turned out to be proprietary, and the site I got it on stopped showing it. But it combined all the details relevant to hitting, air pressure, humidity, etc. On a hot day in Texas, Arlington might have had an ADI in the low 60s, and that’s about as low as I ever saw any park. On a normal day it might have been high 60s/low 70s. Coors is always in the 50s, whether it’s hot and humid or cold or raining or whatever. It was often in the low 50s. fully 10 points lower than the next best environment. Not that that’s everything, but it demonstrates how different that environment is than literally everywhere else.

    I mostly faded Coors for two years because I followed the conventional wisdom of going against the high-ownership/high-priced plays in gpps. What leverage you can get when a 40% owned $5500 Nolan Arenado puts up a 0! I got crushed to the extent that I just stopped playing Coors slates for the most part, because I couldn’t find a good way to play players in those games, and I couldn’t safely fade.

    Last year it seemed like using pitchers in Coors became a popular gpp strategy. I guess mostly because Jon Gray turned out to be pretty good, but I vaguely recall a number of pitchers having good games there, and people winning gpps with them. One way to differentiate your Coors stacks was to use their pitcher. At least until the public caught on. Now it’s not uncommon to see 20% owned pitchers in Coors, which I think is an edge the other way, yesterday notwithstanding. And in general batters seem to be less highly owned than in the past. People are much less willing to stack teams like the Phillies or Padres, which makes them tempting for me. I can’t tell you how many low-owned Coors stacks I’ve had this year, which have done absolutely nothing. It’s infuriating, honestly, because they fucking killed me when they were highly owned.

    Like I said, two years ago I couldn’t bring myself to stack Coors, and I got crushed regularly. Last year I started trying to pick my spots, warm myself up to using high-owned stacks in great situations, and differentiate in other ways, and did better. This year I’ve been full-on all about Coors, and the public seems nowhere near as in love with it as in the past, I routinely get stacks in that park that average under 10% owned, or at least only the best players are higher, and I am getting crushed again. So, sure, maybe it’s just that I suck at picking my spots, but I would really just prefer to not have to decide, because I feel like the randomness element is enhanced. A team could just as easily score 15 runs as zero. I know we all like to say that this is the case for every team, that baseball is largely random, but it’s not the same in other parks. It’s just not.

  • Heterodox

    @EadesScience said...

    If not, then what is the big deal? Invest a share or two in Coors and move on to the less popular stacks I am thinking.

    I’m a believer in going with what’s good. Especially if you don’t max enter. You only hurt yourself by spreading your exposure when you’re up against tens of thousands of other lineups. Your two lineups of whatever stack/game will still be very unlikely to win when it goes off, but if you have 10 versions of it, you’re in better shape. Still at a disadvantage, but it’s mitigated a bit.

  • Heterodox

    @monaco712 said...

    but I
    would imagine the down seasons by Cargo and Story are big factors.

    Just for the record, Carlos Gonazales has an OPS of .930 at home this year, compared to .697 on the road. Story is .854/.711.

    I might throw out a guy like Pat Valaika too, who is a monster at home, and pure shit on the road (1.023 vs .644), but he doesn’t have a ton of at bats. Parra is another one, .967 to .699, with a more representative sample size.

    So, for all the people who talk about how Coors is “playing” this year, these guys are elite at home, and literally scrubs on the road.

  • yisman

    yes, dailybaseballdata used to show air density daily and took it away this year

    made it premium-only, like with Kevin Roth’s updates

  • NoLimits0

    @Heterodox said...

    Just for the record, Carlos Gonazales has an OPS of .930 at home this year, compared to .697 on the road. Story is .854/.711.

    I might throw out a guy like Pat Valaika too, who is a monster at home, and pure shit on the road (1.023 vs .644), but he doesn’t have a ton of at bats. Parra is another one, .967 to .699, with a more representative sample size.

    So, for all the people who talk about how Coors is “playing” this year, these guys are elite at home, and literally scrubs on the road.

    Why are you making up stats? This isn’t close to being true.

  • yisman

    @Heterodox said...

    Just for the record, Carlos Gonazales has an OPS of .930 at home this year, compared to .697 on the road. Story is .854/.711.

    I might throw out a guy like Pat Valaika too, who is a monster at home, and pure shit on the road (1.023 vs .644), but he doesn’t have a ton of at bats. Parra is another one, .967 to .699, with a more representative sample size.

    So, for all the people who talk about how Coors is “playing” this year, these guys are elite at home, and literally scrubs on the road.

    That’s been the case every year. Forget individual players, compare the Rockies team OPS at home to road OPS every and there’s always huge splits.

    My point was in regards to DFS.

    The Rockies have been horrible on the road, but I’d imagine they’re always low owned on the road.

    Coors in general has not played up to typical Coors standards this year, which means that the uptick in production has not made up for the increased pricetag at DK.

  • Heterodox

    I literally just copied and pasted them from their DK player cards

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