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  • repojoker

    I might get killed for this, but I have been playing DFS since early 2012 and have a huge complaint. I have a normal job and play recreationally as I think most people do. I don’t have the time (or aptitude) to do what the great DFS players can do. What the best players do in my opinion is unreal, how they develop algos that predict outcomes is unreal. I have the utmost respect for them. Where I lose respect for them is the other day when I went to play a $3 and $5 double up on DK, I saw Max (saal) and Empiremaker2 in these contests. My serious question is why? Do they do it to just pad their bankroll? To me, anything below $25 is where the newbies and beginners play. For advanced players to play in these games is a joke to me and completely unfair. They crush the competition and run them out. Then they have the gall, to try and sell them lineups (max)? Imagine walking into the Belagio and seeing Phil Ivey playing a 3-6 Limit holdem game. Never happen in a million years because his TIME is too valuable. But these guys create lineups, and enter them everywhere. In my opinion it’s just bad business…

    I was curios what others opinions are. If I am in the minority, or wrong, they I will keep my mouth shut and continue to donate to their bankroll until I decide it’s no fun anymore…

    Thx in advance….

  • tonytone1908

    @yeahthisiscuddy said...

    I’ve been banging the drum on this for about a year now. I usually get shouted down, so I’m glad to see that hasn’t happened here yet. The usual argument is that the mass multi-entry pros make the big $1 million tournaments possible, so we should all be grateful the sites let them scalp us in every $1 double-up.

    So they only win GPP’s because they have hundreds of LU’s so that means they’ll automatically win all their double ups with just 1 LU?

    Kinda debunks the theory they only win because they max entry. If they’re beating you in cash games too they’re obviously just good.

    I am assuming they are not entering 100 unique LU’s in double ups as that would just be dumb, you might as well put them in GPP’s. I can’t imagine they’re building 100 cash LU’s as well, especially if they only use 1 in their H2H’s.

  • yeahthisiscuddy

    @tonytone1908 said...

    So they only win GPP’s because they have hundreds of LU’s so that means they’ll automatically win all their double ups with just 1 LU?

    Kinda debunks the theory they only win because they max entry. If they’re beating you in cash games too they’re obviously just good.

    I am assuming they are not entering 100 unique LU’s in double ups as that would just be dumb, you might as well put them in GPP’s. I can’t imagine they’re building 100 cash LU’s as well, especially if they only use 1 in their H2H’s.

    I knew it was only a matter of time. And of course it comes from a familiar face. But you’re twisting what I’m saying.

    Clearly these guys are very good. They make very good lineups. I think there’s a problem they’re allowed to enter those lineups in every $1 contest on the site. They’re squeezing out the would-be marginally profitable player. I would like the option of entering a contest that doesn’t have a professional DFS player in it.

  • tonytone1908

    @yeahthisiscuddy said...

    I knew it was only a matter of time. And of course it comes from a familiar face. But you’re twisting what I’m saying.

    Clearly these guys are very good. They make very good lineups. I think there’s a problem they’re allowed to enter those lineups in every $1 contest on the site. They’re squeezing out the would-be marginally profitable player. I would like the option of entering a contest that doesn’t have a professional DFS player in it.

    Which brings me back to my old proposition of players being ranked, such as RG has done for their own purposes, and you play within your rank. If you do well, you move up and play tougher competition. Not so well, you drop down a level. The Con argument to that was that the pros would not only play other pros because they’d just be swapping rake.

    Honestly, if you’re putting in the work to make a good LU why even bother with a $1 game? That’s just dumb in the first place. If you’re shooting for the stars and making an amazing LU why wouldn’t you just play a higher dollar, lesser entry GPP? Do you want to make $3 for your 4 hours of research or $100?

    Have you seen some of the whacky punts these guys play in their 100 LU’s? There’s plenty of dead LU’s they contribute believe me.

  • tonytone1908

    @yeahthisiscuddy said...

    I would like the option of entering a contest that doesn’t have a professional DFS player in it.

    Link Quote Re

    I would point out the previously mentioned idea of playing on a smaller site but I’m sure they’re flooded with sharks as well because honestly, who else would know about the smaller sites than the sharks? Definitely not the guy who plays his 1 LU on FD or DK every night.

  • gofast36

    If you really don’t want to go head to head vs. really strong players, then why don’t you just play the larger field double ups, 50/50’s, and tournaments? There’s always going to be plenty of dead money in those games mixed in with the stronger players, and if you’re a good player, then you should have no trouble beating these games.

    Also, consider how difficult it is to implement what you’re asking for. How does DK decide which players are “too good” to play at a certain stake?

    1.)(If they’ve won a certain amount of money on the site?) But, what if they just got lucky and binked a tournament?

    2.) If they’ve made a certain amount of money playing cash, then we ban them from small stakes? How much would that amount be? Over what period of time? Which stakes would you exclude them from?

    3.)What if they made a lot of money over a long period of time playing cash, but had a very small win rate, and just made their money due to volume? What if they made a lot of money in the small stakes cash games, but couldn’t beat the higher stakes? Do we still ban them from small stakes?

  • bighop04

    It sounds like your arguement is almost that you want a casual section on the lobby, similar to how there was a beginners section, but maybe it is a section where you can play only if you are entering less than $50 per day or so. It is an interesting thought, but it would never work since then the upper end game I feel would be shark v shark only, and sharks don’t eat sharks.

  • tgowen

    • Blogger of the Month

    @gofast36 said...

    If you really don’t want to go head to head vs. really strong players, then why don’t you just play the larger field double ups, 50/50’s, and tournaments?

    Currently looking at a few DU’s and 50/50’s on DK:

    34 man $1 DU: out of the 31 slots filled, 25 are filled by people with 1,000 + Big Win badges

    57 man $1 DU: out of the 42 slots filled, 32 of are filled by people with 1,000 + Big Win badges

    100 man $1 50/50: out of the 77 slots filled, 56 are filled by people with 1,000 + Big Win badges

    I’m sure I’ll just come off as whining, but my god that is demoralizing. I’ve never realized how much of a disadvantage I’ve been at before the contest even starts. To know that in low stakes DU’s and 50/50’s about 75% of the competition are players with vastly more experience is amazing.

    There are no options for casual players. Swim with the sharks, or get out of the water.

  • Bigo1

    The issue is not new, tons of people (including noisy ppl like Ed Miller) had predicted it, the ecosystem of DFS is hardly sustainable at a 10% rake. Here is an interesting article that explains it: http://www.techinsider.io/fantasy-football-favors-the-sharks-heavily-over-the-fish-2015-9

    And suggesting to ban players from certain contests is ludicrous (and borderline legal). Having said that, people have choices. They can fade contests they do not like, organise private contests (and remove ‘sharks’ from them as they want), enter beginner contests,….Ultimately, they will need to improve to make it happen though.

    Ironically, what people have fought for forever (‘DFS is a game of skill’) might finally be proven right, but at the potential expense of killing the game completely. I hope not.

  • paulmsr

    @feekdogg said...

    I was playing hoop2410 in a $2 3-man league this afternoon. When I went to look for a $5 3-way tonight, he was in every league that I looked at that already had one or two entries,

    Hoop2410 is predominately a cash game player and he even says it when he’s on shows. When it comes to GPP’s he only throws a couple bullets in here and there so that would be why you see him all over the 3 man leagues.

  • COLLECTORTHIS

    The rake is ridiculous.

  • njsum

    I’ve thought about this problem for quite some time, and i’ve come to the conclusion that there is no long term solution only short term fixes.

    Before I get into that, I wanted to give my opinion on comparing a top poker player sitting in on $2 tables to a top dfs player playing $1 or $2 cash games and why the two scenarios are completely different, and should not be compared.

    As mentioned previously its not worth a top poker players time to to sit at a low stakes table. Yet in DFS the time spent is in the lineup creation not the playing of the game. I would think that if a top poker pro or one of the top pros could create software that would allow him/her to play 1000 different low stakes games at one time and such a practice was permissable that many (not all) would undoubtedly do so. As that would certainly be worth their time. Well thats what a top DFS player can do, even though some choose not to. For the record, im not condoning or condemning the practice, just saying I can see both sides of the argument as to why top players enter low stakes games.

    And heres why IMO that theres no long term solution to the problem and probably will never be one. Say you expand beginner contests from 50 to 1000. All that would end up happening is that the “sharky” or more talented beginners would ultimately swallow up the “fishy” or less talented beginners. Yes it would allow for beginners money to last longer yet so would playing the quarter arcades or 1 dollar 50/50s. Then the sharky beginners would eventually have to go and play the real sharks if they wanted to continue with their endeavor. So minnows are either gonna get swallowed by other minnows or by the sharks or become a shark themselves as someone had previously mentioned. Yet isnt that the nature of almost everything in life. Everyone cant win.

    Also as mentionened previously, the sites need to make money to continue operating and if the sharks are forced to only play sharks, it may become unprofitable for them to continue playing at such a high volume and in turn the sites wont have enough revenue to make it worth their time to continue operating. and my guess is that a lot of sharks derive most of their profit through lower stakes games or use money won in lower stakes to fund mass entering tournaments or playing at higher stakes. Again, im not condoning or condemning the practice just saying I dont see a long term solution.

    Yet if you’re like most, you dont mind spending 30 bucks a month and view it as a hobby or an entertainment expense,. And if you truly want to become a shark, for 25 cents or a dollar you can study the lineups of a top pro, who are unwittingly giving away their edge for mere pennies by allowing you to see their lineups for next to nothing. yet if you wanted to see what a top poker pro was holdin it would cost you a down payment on a house.

  • MVPAg08

    youdacacao, #4 ranked DFS player, just won the 235 person Quarter entry league last night. pissed me off he was in that contest with us low ballers

  • DirtysBurgers

    @tgowen said...

    Currently looking at a few DU’s and 50/50’s on DK:

    34 man $1 DU: out of the 31 slots filled, 25 are filled by people with 1,000 + Big Win badges

    57 man $1 DU: out of the 42 slots filled, 32 of are filled by people with 1,000 + Big Win badges

    100 man $1 50/50: out of the 77 slots filled, 56 are filled by people with 1,000 + Big Win badges

    I’m sure I’ll just come off as whining, but my god that is demoralizing. I’ve never realized how much of a disadvantage I’ve been at before the contest even starts. To know that in low stakes DU’s and 50/50’s about 75% of the competition are players with vastly more experience is amazing.

    There are no options for casual players. Swim with the sharks, or get out of the water.

    I completely agree with limiting sharks in $1 double-ups and 50/50 – but I don’t think these badges on DK are indicative of anything. I have the 1,000+ Big Win badge and I am far from a shark and never play more than $25 in a day.

  • DanielHaight

    • Yahoo Representative

    @BmoreClutch said...

    I love what Yahoo did with their fair play rules. Hopefully regulation will bring similar rules to every site. It’s just a shame that Yahoo basically doesn’t give a shit about their DFS product.

    thank you?

  • catmando

    these guys are not unbeatable..they enter massive variations of all lineups. much like boxing every horse in a race, most are losing money so do not get overwhelmed by trying to keep up. stick to h2h, single entry and grinding. However rake now is just to the point where no amount of skill will help you overcome it. Just plan around what your willing to spend and or lose each week or month. GL

  • ThatStunna

    • 29

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #25

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • 2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

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    @Bigo1 said...

    The issue is not new, tons of people (including noisy ppl like Ed Miller) had predicted it, the ecosystem of DFS is hardly sustainable at a 10% rake. Here is an interesting article that explains it: http://www.techinsider.io/fantasy-football-favors-the-sharks-heavily-over-the-fish-2015-9

    And suggesting to ban players from certain contests is ludicrous (and borderline legal). Having said that, people have choices. They can fade contests they do not like, organise private contests (and remove ‘sharks’ from them as they want), enter beginner contests,….Ultimately, they will need to improve to make it happen though.

    I would like to see lower-level satellites on DK and FD. Players that did not qualify for gold status (or whatever arbitrary cutoff) last month are the only ones allowed to enter. That would protect players a bit from having to deal with the double whammy of a contest that’s frequently over their head and fighting the top dogs to get there.

    DK should also cap the total # of entries below $25 like FD does (which doesn’t seem to be mentioned thus far…), but DK is much more concerned with mining the players.

  • rj3494

    I often wondered how Bernie Sanders would regulate DFS and then…………I found this thread.

  • zline34

    Large gpp’s, High stakes, single entry. That’s all I ask for.

  • ASalvaro

    all i know is DFS has givin me a ton of action without having to make $100 parlays to have fun..so its worth it

  • tonytone1908

    @zline34 said...

    Large gpp’s, High stakes, single entry. That’s all I ask for.

    Find 100k people to all be willing to play only entry and it would happen. If a $1 tourney for 10k barely fills how will they ever get 100k people to play it. Are there even 100k players on FD or DK that play MLB every night?

    You realize high stakes for a $1 game would take an incredilble amount of players right? Sorry, if I spend a few hours researching I’m putting in more than a buck on my hard work.

    People keep failing to realize that even the low dollar single entry games barely fill, there’s just not enough players to begin with. Tomorrow’s Moonshot is like 46k entries. How many of those are players with mulit entry. I’d say at most there’s 25k players in that game. I think realistically the highest single entry contest you’ll ever find is 25 g’s. Not worth anyone’s time.

    I mean seriously, who’s going to put time and effort into this wanting to hit it big and then only play for a buck or two.. It’s just mathematically impossible to find 25k individual people to play one LU every single night but no one seems to understand that.

    Also, do you still want to play against the sharks and their program and their algorithms all focused to ONE optimal LU? You got a better chance beating their other 249 that aren’t as good.

  • tgowen

    • Blogger of the Month

    @tonytone1908 said...

    People keep failing to realize that even the low dollar single entry games barely fill, there’s just not enough players to begin with. Tomorrow’s Moonshot is like 46k entries. How many of those are players with mulit entry. I’d say at most there’s 25k players in that game. I think realistically the highest single entry contest you’ll ever find is 25 g’s. Not worth anyone’s time.

    This could very well be true. As much as I’d like to see things change, if there simply are not enough DFS players around to make it happen then all of these discussions are proving to be pointless.

    I’ve stated on numerous occasions that I am an on again/off again player. It doesn’t take much to turn me off of DFS for a while. I would imagine there are a large number of DFS players who are just like me. They play when they get the urge, but have very little desire to be an everyday player. If that is the case, and there is a very small amount (relatively speaking) that sites can count on to play on a regular basis then it is more likely than not that things will continue the way they are for quite some time.

  • deactivated60279

    It’s kinda sad that hoop2410 has to bum hunt at this point. Build better line ups hoop! Not a great look for RG or Hoop2410.

  • phillydilly

    Fanduel limits you to 250 MLB contests under $10.
    Play on FD. the contest limit really helps this problem

  • Shipmymoney

    • 62

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #13

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • x3

      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2016 FanDuel MLB Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @teamcdot said...

    Just play head to head then. I beat ChiptoleAddict last time I played. Head to head, they aren’t that good as they are only using one lineup.

    Lol try this every day for a year. They are still very good

  • dragon1952

    Most of the posts seem to agree with the OP. I guess it’s the American way….we all want something for nothing……or something for very little anyway. Life is too hard so please (Mr. Government or Mr. DK/FD) make it easier for us instead of us working harder or smarter ourselves.
    I’m not excluding myself and ragging on everyone else BTW. It’s just the way we Americans, generally speaking, have been raised. If we bitch loud enough maybe we’ll get a break, when it’s often times doubtful we deserve one. As for me, I don’t play cash games….I just enter a few large GPP’s per day and have fun. If I’m going to spend all these hours studying and making LU’s I’m not willing to settle for a $3 win in a cash game. It’s not that difficult to do that in a GPP and still have the potential for something much bigger.

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