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  • repojoker

    I might get killed for this, but I have been playing DFS since early 2012 and have a huge complaint. I have a normal job and play recreationally as I think most people do. I don’t have the time (or aptitude) to do what the great DFS players can do. What the best players do in my opinion is unreal, how they develop algos that predict outcomes is unreal. I have the utmost respect for them. Where I lose respect for them is the other day when I went to play a $3 and $5 double up on DK, I saw Max (saal) and Empiremaker2 in these contests. My serious question is why? Do they do it to just pad their bankroll? To me, anything below $25 is where the newbies and beginners play. For advanced players to play in these games is a joke to me and completely unfair. They crush the competition and run them out. Then they have the gall, to try and sell them lineups (max)? Imagine walking into the Belagio and seeing Phil Ivey playing a 3-6 Limit holdem game. Never happen in a million years because his TIME is too valuable. But these guys create lineups, and enter them everywhere. In my opinion it’s just bad business…

    I was curios what others opinions are. If I am in the minority, or wrong, they I will keep my mouth shut and continue to donate to their bankroll until I decide it’s no fun anymore…

    Thx in advance….

  • EadesScience

    I wonder if any of the folks that are trying to eliminate DFS completely read any of these posts and use it as ammunition?

  • AssaniFisher

    • 163

      RG Overall Ranking

    • x2

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • x6

      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    @tgowen said...

    Do I think it is too much for sites of offer a small handful of 100 man $1 tournaments to players who enter less than $10 per day (or something similar to this idea)? I don’t

    I had a meeting with some FD guys about 8 or 9 months ago to give feedback on site rules(this was right before they implemented the 250 rule in response to RayOfHope and other people’s complaints about pros in low stakes games). One of the things I learned in that meeting is that we greatly underestimate the cost of implementing changes. There were several suggestions I had where their response was “Yea that sounds like a totally reasonable idea. But to re-write our software, beta-test it, fix any bugs, & potentially pay for the times it messes up and we need to reimburse users their entry fees….that’d cost us way way more money than you think. Its nowhere near as easy as you think, and if you want us to spend money on this then we’re going to need to save that money elsewhere(or raise the rake).”

    For the sites, they need to analyze the cost of the changes vs how much the changes will influence players to play more. The recent 250 rule is probably their most relevant data point- I’m sure they spent a ton of money to implement those changes. Do you think this was worth it for them? Did this rule change get the beginners/low stakes players to be happy and play more? If the answer is yes then they’ll probably be willing to make similar changes in the future. But if they feel as if it didn’t really gain them anything then they’ll probably be very hesitant to pay for more changes in this regard.

  • tgowen

    • Blogger of the Month

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I had a meeting with some FD guys about 8 or 9 months ago to give feedback on site rules(this was right before they implemented the 250 rule in response to RayOfHope and other people’s complaints about pros in low stakes games). One of the things I learned in that meeting is that we greatly underestimate the cost of implementing changes. There were several suggestions I had where their response was “Yea that sounds like a totally reasonable idea. But to re-write our software, beta-test it, fix any bugs, & potentially pay for the times it messes up and we need to reimburse users their entry fees….that’d cost us way way more money than you think. Its nowhere near as easy as you think, and if you want us to spend money on this then we’re going to need to save that money elsewhere(or raise the rake).”

    For the sites, they need to analyze the cost of the changes vs how much the changes will influence players to play more. The recent 250 rule is probably their most relevant data point- I’m sure they spent a ton of money to implement those changes. Do you think this was worth it for them? Did this rule change get the beginners/low stakes players to be happy and play more? If the answer is yes then they’ll probably be willing to make similar changes in the future. But if they feel as if it didn’t really gain them anything then they’ll probably be very hesitant to pay for more changes in this regard.

    If this is the case, then it is what it is and I understand.

    DFS has experienced some tremendous growth and with that, comes a great deal of praise and criticism. The reality is that 99% of players (myself included) want what is best for them and until that happens there will always be complaints or areas where players see improvement is possible.

    Until then, all we can do is make the best out of the current situation and enjoy it for as long as we can.

  • pmsimkins

    • 2014 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    • 2015 FanDuel WFBBC Finalist

    @tgowen said...

    Do I think it is too much for sites of offer a small handful of 100 man $1 tournaments to players who enter less than $10 per day (or something similar to this idea)? I don’t, but clearly others do and because of that I’m unreasonable and a crybaby who wants free money.

    It’s not unreasonable for you to want it, but step back and think through just how complicated that is to implement in the real world.

    Edit: I guess that kind of got covered above.

  • theleafnode

    While I see a lot of discussion about what’s “fair” or “unfair”, and “leveling the playing field”, the real problem is that the current economy is unsustainable. It doesn’t matter if you think it’s fair or unfair, or whether you don’t like multi-entry, or whether you want a 3-man without hoop2410. It’s really just about how to keep DFS alive for the long term, and the current structure is going to kill it.

    The reason poker lasted so long is because it costs top players to play with fish. DFS doesn’t have that problem (which was well pointed out in the original post). Since it costs top players nothing to enter contests with fish, it makes sense for them to maximize their profits by doing so. Over time, this will dry up pool of bad and casual players, thus killing the product. Since the number of people willing to play DFS is a finite number, we will see over time that all 3 types of players you need (fish, casuals, new) to keep the industry going will start to fall. T

    This issue, and this issue alone will be the demise of DFS as we know it. Whether it’s fair or unfair to casual players, it will kill the industry. I wish I knew the solution, but I’m sure the fine people at FD and DK are working on it because they have to know that they can’t keep letting the system work this way and expect to be here in 10 years. Hopefully this is the next big thing they try to fix after we get proper legislation.

  • KillaChap

    They have a choice.. spend the money to figure something like this out, if it’s really that widespread, or it’ll all end. If there are no more minnows to eat, the sharks will die.

  • yeahthisiscuddy

    @AssaniFisher said...

    So its not the system that people have a problem with; Its that they want to set the qualifications for what constitutes a beginner so that it includes them. This seems completely self-serving imo.

    You do this too. If not for rule changes and a very public spat with rayofhope im sure you’d still be happily cruising along scooping all the $1 H2Hs you could find.

    I’m not condemning you. It’s human nature to want rules that most benefit their particular situation. It’s just the sanctimony in your first point was too much to take.

  • yeahthisiscuddy

    @EadesScience said...

    I wonder if any of the folks that are trying to eliminate DFS completely read any of these posts and use it as ammunition?

    This argument is so tired. People expressing their opinion in an online forum is a bigger detriment than the sites’ willing obliviousness to the problems were talking about? Really?

  • yeahthisiscuddy

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I had a meeting with some FD guys about 8 or 9 months ago to give feedback on site rules

    This is the exact problem. The sites and the power users interests are so entwined that the casual player is getting pushed out. It’s been happening since the beginning. The big advertising blitz of last year papered over it for awhile, but I’m thinking 2015 was the high water mark for DFS. The sites brought this on themselves and I have no sympathy for them.

  • pmsimkins

    • 2014 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    • 2015 FanDuel WFBBC Finalist

    @yeahthisiscuddy said...

    This is the exact problem. The sites and the power users interests are so entwined that the casual player is getting pushed out. It’s been happening since the beginning. The big advertising blitz of last year papered over it for awhile, but I’m thinking 2015 was the high water mark for DFS. The sites brought this on themselves and I have no sympathy for them.

    From a GPP perspective we the users did it to ourselves. Huge contests, deep payouts and big top prizes are the absolute antithesis of what you want if your goal is to make a profit. Unless of course you massively multienter. Yet I still still see guys playing $10 a night cheering for that type of tourney.

  • jthayesjr

    • 616

      RG Overall Ranking

    @feekdogg said...

    I posted earlier in this thread that I was playing hoop2410 in a $2 3-man league this afternoon. When I went to look for a $5 3-way tonight, he was in every league that I looked at that already had one or two entries, so I just joined a league where I was the first entry. Well, guess who swooped in and grabbed one of the open spaces? Yep, hoop2410. I just want to play a couple other random regular guys, but that’s become very difficult.

    I like what’s happneing with some of us simply inviting others to H2H – we can do the same with leagues. I created a 10 man league last week without invites and, yep, Saahil AKA Max entered – $20 lol

  • beezchild

    I think this fits here, but what actually constitutes a player as a “shark”? Everyone complains about the sharks v. fish and how the sites aren’t doing enough to combat the “problem” but at what point are you considered a shark? Is a shark someone who competes in DFS for a living? Someone with a high win percentage? Someone who plays over a certain dollar amount a night? Or all of the above? Also, isn’t the Sharks v. fish “problem” really a cash game problem? I would venture to guess that most new people play GPPs hoping to turn $10 into 1 Million and enjoy the sweat for entertainment purposes, never knowing who the sharks are, and probably wouldn’t care even if they did. I think people commenting in the rotogrinders threads don’t represent the “common” or “casual” player. I think a causal player is a guy/girl who throws money in for entertainment purposes, hoping to hit big. Could be wrong.

  • wahoolady

    I agree somewhat with both sides of the multiple entry issue. Since I do not get high scores that often (and the scores needed to cash are becoming very difficult to achieve), I am beyond frustrated with the popular sites. On the other hand, I do not want a “participation trophy” when my choice of players stinks. I do not believe in punishing people for being successful. So a middle ground, such as using a graduated scale of entries allowed, may be a reasonable solution. Currently, tournaments are mostly unlimited or single. In addition, paying out to a larger percentage of players would surely result in fewer complaints. It seems ridiculous that a score in the top 1% may not cash. I do believe that without the many entries by “sharks” the payouts would decrease significantly. Just limit those in quarter and dollar tournaments.

  • thenatural91

    It’s bad business period. I know at least a half dozen of my buddies who quit when they realized what was going on. Not just some fun fantasy baseball leagues, but people making a living draining their accounts. I haven’t played in a month because of it and I love playing. Member here for years..If I know that many people then how many are out there? I’m in a season long league with a live draft. Not 1 person of 12 still plays more than occasionally! So to say developing a plan to allow these type to play in contests limited to how many times a person plays a day etc. Is a bad idea is crazy..Advertise it!! If you told me that there were leagues for people who enter say less then 20 times a day were available I’d jump on it ..or that leagues were out there for people who have won less than x amount per month were available! They make enough damn money to get it done..Can’t be that complicated in 2016.

  • Grizzlers

    In reality those guys make their money by turning in the max number of entries in each contest. If you ever notice the higher entry fee tourneys, $100 and up just as example, those same guys only have a couple entries and they don’t do that great, usually the winning score is well below the cheaper contests. During the NBA playoffs when contests only consisted of a couple games, it’s much easier to find the right combination of 20 to 25 relevant players when you have 200 entries. Where we’re being cheated is that we can no longer see if we’re playing a guys 2nd or 200th lineup. Those same tools they use are available to all of us and really don;t take that long to get a decent projection. All that is hype, the secret is start using a shot gun instead of a pistol.

    As far as H2H why play those anyway?? With 20% going to the house you have to win 62.5% of the time to just break even. Most nights that same score puts you in the money and generally speaking just cashing in those returns 200% where as H2H only returns 180%. Not to mention if you really get it right you max out at that 180% or double in double ups and triple in triple ups. I learned this the night I score 384 in a triple up and won $15 and that same score int the $5 GPP payed I think $10,000. But seriously those guys aren’t that much better.

  • DoubleTime

    • 2016 King of Summer: August

    @Grizzlers said...

    Where we’re being cheated is that we can no longer see if we’re playing a guys 2nd or 200th lineup.

    Not sure if you are talking about on DK or not. But on DraftKings you can still see what # line-up of your opponent you are playing against… at least on desktop. Just click on the player’s name, then up at the top next to the live scoring you will see their name with a number in ( ) that tells you what # line-up it is.

  • DoubleTime

    • 2016 King of Summer: August

    @Grizzlers said...

    With 20% going to the house you have to win 62.5% of the time to just break even.

    10% goes to the house in head-to-heads, and that is only at the lower stakes. At higher stakes they take less. You have to win 55.555% of the time to break even.

  • emac

    @DoubleTime said...

    Not sure if you are talking about on DK or not. But on DraftKings you can still see what # line-up of your opponent you are playing against… at least on desktop. Just click on the player’s name, then up at the top next to the live scoring you will see their name with a number in ( ) that tells you what # line-up it is.

    Hi DT, That feature was removed quite some time ago (during late NFL season I believe) and while we can still see the (##) for our own entries, opposing entries no longer have that designation on the desktop/full site. However, if you download the CSV file for the contest, it will give you a (# / #) for each entry that a gamer has over one.

    Prior to a game starting, on the full site when you are creating your lineup, there is a link on the upper left called “Full Contest Details” and by going into that sub-page you can see how many entries other gamers have by “hovering” over the orange “M” that designates if someone has multiple entries.

    EMac

  • CUTiger81

    I am by no means a shark and don’t really feel like a fish either but I never feel like I’m getting taken advantage of. As far as GPPs go, I have all the options I could ask for. FD has large field low dollar GPPs with huge payouts up top (those wouldn’t exist without max/ehafner/etc…buying in so many entries), they have size able single entry GPPs at the low dollar level. DK has good sized large field GPPs as well as 3-entry Max GPPs.

    As far as cash games go, just avoid the Sharks where you can. I only scoop h2h’s, don’t post any (so mine aren’t scooped by sharks), I only play 100 man 50/50’s and if the entry list is loaded with sharks I’ll just move on to another one, and my 3-man/5-man leagues I just look at the other entrants and if it’s sharks then I just pick up another one. Been playing since the end of 2014 in primarily $1-$5 games and remain profitable.

    Sharks keep DFS alive. I understand that and I’m ok with it but as a semi-knowledgeable player I just avoid them where I can. It’s pretty simple in my eyes.

  • DoubleTime

    • 2016 King of Summer: August

    @emac said...

    Hi DT, That feature was removed quite some time ago (during late NFL season I believe) and while we can still see the (##) for our own entries, opposing entries no longer have that designation on the desktop/full site. However, if you download the CSV file for the contest, it will give you a (# / #) for each entry that a gamer has over one.

    Prior to a game starting, on the full site when you are creating your lineup, there is a link on the upper left called “Full Contest Details” and by going into that sub-page you can see how many entries other gamers have by “hovering” over the orange “M” that designates if someone has multiple entries.

    EMac

    EMac,

    Not sure we are talking about the same thing, but on the desktop/full site I am still able to see what # line-up of my opponent I am looking at. Again, not sure if that is what you are talking about here.

    Just looking at a large GPP from my history. I open the contest and look at the standings on the left side of the page. In the standings you still won’t see a (##) for your opponents. However, if you click on their name and then look up at the top above their line-up (next to where it says ‘Live Scoring’), you will find their name in very small print with the old (##) next to their name telling you which # of line-up you are looking at.

  • ckamins87

    • 2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2016 FanDuel WFBBC Finalist

    @emac said...

    Hi DT, That feature was removed quite some time ago (during late NFL season I believe) and while we can still see the (##) for our own entries, opposing entries no longer have that designation on the desktop/full site.

    Not true…It’s still there, just in a different place on the screen

  • Houseman

    Bighouse……you are right on. FD and DK only exist to cater to the big gamblers. Eventually the governments of all states will shut them down.

  • Olhausen

    @Houseman said...

    Bighouse……you are right on. FD and DK only exist to cater to the big gamblers. Eventually the governments of all states will shut them down.

    Maybe you haven’t seen the news in a while but multiple states have legalized dfs including New York. Draft kings and dfs in general aren’t going away anytime soon.

  • BennyRamirez

    There is no reason for the sites to allow a lineup to ever have more than 100 entries. The GPPs are a pretty flat number and the people about whom we are speaking are registering 225 of their 250 lineups only a dozen times or so. The rest are going to cash games. The sites aren’t really gaining much in rake here, as those players will invest the same total amount, just in less contests at higher stakes, making the rake collected about the same.Lowering that 250 under $10 rule to 100 would just redistribute those entries fees up and encourage more cash play from the lower stakes players on which the eco-system is most dependent.

    The self-importance of some people for whom DFS is a profession is ignorant.

  • badlands92

    Here’s a question I’ve had from Day #1. Why does there have to be such a big gap between first and second places (and so on) in GPPs?

    The difference between first and fifth place is $2500! The difference between 236th and 2036th is $5….yep, finishing 1800 places better than an opponent wins you an extra $5. Are you freaking kidding me???

    As RyanF alluded to earlier, we’re like moths to a flame for that top prize. I think it’s easy to forget the improbability of taking that prize. For many casual players who submit one LU, that Top 5 finish is probably going to be the best of the year for them. Sure $500 is a nice chunk of change, and a bankroll I could build on (enabling me to play with a little more risk) but to be so close to $3000 is demoralizing haha

    Using shaky math, I’ve come to my own conclusion that I have about a 4% chance of winning anything sizeable ($20+) in a $3 GPP. I usually have an 82% chance to get a goose egg. Yah, I like the odds. :(

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