INDUSTRY FORUM

Comments

  • 8MileAllstars

    DK just put their contests up in the Lobby.

  • ActionJunkie

    @Slah said...

    In this scoring system, we’re going to see drivers who finish in the high teens outscore drivers finishing in the top 5. That’s silly.

    Well, we see great pitchers throw gems and not get the win. We see batters go nuts and the team loses. I’m not saying the scoring system is perfect but I’m not seeing any yellow/red flags (pun intended) on the surface.

  • DFSviz

    why don’t we just let the disney lawyers worry about the legality of it and keep the talk to whether or not you’re excited OR like/dislike the scoring?

  • Slah

    • 2015 NASCAR Live Final Champion

    @ActionJunkie….

    That’s all apples to oranges.

    You’re getting rewarded if a pitcher throws a gem, regardless of whether or not they get a win. You’re getting rewarded if a batter goes nuts, regardless of whether or not their team wins.

    The closest NASCAR equivalent to any of that is finishing position. That’s the measure of performance and success in the sport.

    “Fast laps”, “pass differential”, and “start/finish differential” are all completely meaningless statistics, the first two of which are by and large unable to be handicapped.

    Another problem I foresee is with regard to lead laps. There are going to be 250 points awarded for lead laps at some short tracks (making finishing position even less important in those races), while there are only 45 points for lead laps up for grabs at Watkins Glen. The lack of continuity that the category lends itself to should be an indicator that it’s not an ideal scoring category to include in the game.

  • DFSviz

    @Slah said...

    Another problem I foresee is with regard to lead laps. There are going to be 250 points awarded for lead laps at some short tracks (making finishing position even less important in those races), while there are only 45 points for lead laps up for grabs at Watkins Glen. The lack of continuity that the category lends itself to should be an indicator that it’s not an ideal scoring category to include in the game.

    i don’t see a problem here. in fact, this makes research and information even more important. how is this any different than the coors effect? i’m sure DK pricing algo’s will take this into consideration for different tracks.

  • crazypaul

    @Markness said...

    Hey Guys,

    Our recent partnership with NASCAR allows us access to their live stats feed, and therefore all stats will update in real-time during the race.

    The scoring system is similar to that of season-long fantasy Nascar and provides plenty of opportunity for strategy. We think much of the current DFS community will enjoy our Nascar product, and at the same time, we feel the addition of Nascar will attract many new users to DFS.

    We are very excited for the Coca-Cola 600 and the future of Nascar on DraftKings. Give it a shot and please don’t hesitate to send along any feedback.

    -Mark

    Mark, would it be possible for DK to make a Freeroll just for Rotogrinders members so those of us unfamiliar with NASCAR could test the waters since this may be many people’s first exposure to the sport?

    It never hurts to ask right ;)

  • Markness

    DraftKings Team

    Thanks for the feedback guys. In response to some recent posts…

    I agree that finishing position is what the drivers are most concerned with. However, the scoring system is meant to reward the driver’s performance within the scoring period (not necessarily the qualifying round). A driver finishing in the teens very well may have performed better than a driver finishing closer to the top. That being said, finishing position points and laps led will make it tougher to do so. This concept also allows us to set reasonably accurate salaries prior to qualifying results, resulting in a better game.

    As mentioned above, some tracks will make starting position more or less important. There will be more overall points awarded for laps led and fastest laps based on the track as well. I think these are examples of some opportunities for strategy; opportunities to gain an edge.

    Interestng point about not being able to visably see fastest laps while watching the race. That is a bit unique from most statistics we’ve seen in fantasy sports (although, as I mentioned earlier, they will be tracked in real-time on DK GameCenters). However, I’m not sure why fastest laps would be unhandicap-able? The reason we would include such a stat is because it is reasonably predictable and adds another element of strategy when looking for value (while also being in-line with performance).

    -Mark

  • pmsimkins

    • 2014 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    • 2015 FanDuel WFBBC Finalist

    Appears you’re looking for a decent driver who typically qualifies poorly and has a bad pit crew.

    I struggle to see how qualifying 43rd and finishing 20th should be worth more than qualifying 1st and finishing 1st.

  • pmsimkins

    • 2014 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    • 2015 FanDuel WFBBC Finalist

    @Markness said...

    However, I’m not sure why fastest laps would be unhandicap-able?

    It’s extremely dependent on pit strategy on some tracks.

  • bowens1984

    • 948

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2014 StarStreet MLB Playboy Mansion Finalist

    • RG Season Champion: NBA

    @Markness said...

    Thanks for the feedback guys. In response to some recent posts…

    I agree that finishing position is what the drivers are most concerned with. However, the scoring system is meant to reward the driver’s performance within the scoring period (not necessarily the qualifying round). A driver finishing in the teens very well may have performed better than a driver finishing closer to the top. That being said, finishing position points and laps led will make it tougher to do so. This concept also allows us to set reasonably accurate salaries prior to qualifying results, resulting in a better game.

    As mentioned above, some tracks will make starting position more or less important. There will be more overall points awarded for laps led and fastest laps based on the track as well. I think these are examples of some opportunities for strategy; opportunities to gain an edge.

    Interestng point about not being able to visably see fastest laps while watching the race. That is a bit unique from most statistics we’ve seen in fantasy sports (although, as I mentioned earlier, they will be tracked in real-time on DK GameCenters). However, I’m not sure why fastest laps would be unhandicap-able? The reason we would include such a stat is because it is reasonably predictable and adds another element of strategy when looking for value (while also being in-line with performance).

    -Mark

    Yet again you ignore the obvious concern on how offering this sport is legal

  • Slah

    • 2015 NASCAR Live Final Champion

    @DFSviz said...

    i don’t see a problem here. in fact, this makes research and information even more important. how is this any different than the coors effect? i’m sure DK pricing algo’s will take this into consideration for different tracks.

    pricing algos have nothing to do with receiving .5 pts/lead lap. it just doesn’t make sense to me conceptually to be able to finish 43rd, yet outscore the race-winner by 200+ points if you happen to lead 80% of the laps before your engine blows up. and if this outcome is possible one race, it should be possible all races. the arbitrary (for dfs purposes) amount of laps that are run at each track should have a negligible effect on the scoring, imo. finishing position should be nearly all that matters.

    “problem” is a relative term, of course. you can always chalk anything up to “somebody’s gonna win, somebody’s gonna lose” no matter the scoring system. i’d imagine it’s only a problem if it costs DK participation.

    as a big NASCAR fan, and somebody who plans to play regularly, the crapshoot that this scoring system will create is already making me look less forward to it than i had hoped, and will likely put less in play than i would if i felt there was much of an edge to be gained. i realize that i am small potatoes, and i’m not the pulse of the DFS Nascar population, but my guess is that, in short order, most who don’t agree with me ultimately will.

    as far as the new players go, i suspect that they will be turned off by the confusing and untrackable/un-sweat-able scoring categories, and won’t have much sustained interest after a few races. just my opinions.

    i’m looking forward to seeing all the complaints from people who tune in to the All-star race Saturday night thinking it’s the Charlotte 600 and wondering why lineups haven’t locked and scoring hasn’t started yet.

  • Slah

    • 2015 NASCAR Live Final Champion

    @Markness said...

    There will be more overall points awarded for laps led and fastest laps based on the track as well. I think these are examples of some opportunities for strategy; opportunities to gain an edge.

    Not trying to jump down your throat, but there’s a huge difference between strategic opportunities and attempting to take advantage of a flawed system.

    When you created the scoring system, you didn’t have “if we award .5 pts/lead lap, that will create excellent strategic opportunities for the players depending on how many laps are run in the race” in mind. it’s simply going to be a by-product of the flawed scoring system that laps led will be infinitely more important at short tracks than others.

  • DFSviz

    @bowens1984 said...

    Yet again you ignore the obvious concern on how offering this sport is legal

    he’s not a lawyer

  • MrCalzone

    Kudos to DK for continuing to innovate the DFS space.

    My concern is the legality of NASCAR. I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know much about it, but it doesn’t seem like it satisfies the ‘multiple event’ clause in the DFS carve out.

    I think it would be prudent for a DK Rep to explain why we shouldn’t be worried.

  • Slah

    • 2015 NASCAR Live Final Champion

    @Markness said...

    However, I’m not sure why fastest laps would be unhandicap-able? The reason we would include such a stat is because it is reasonably predictable and adds another element of strategy when looking for value (while also being in-line with performance).

    It’s unhandicap-able because, well, it’s unhandicap-able. My guess is the amount of drivers/race to record a fast lap approaches nearly half the field. Any random crappy driver can luck into catching the perfect draft on any given lap and tally a fast lap.

    All that’s handicappable is who you think will be the fastest cars and finish the highest. Tacking on points from all those other categories (besides start-finish differential) is going to be pure happenstance.

  • Markness

    DraftKings Team

    Slah, “fastest laps” and “laps led” are not uncommon categories from traditional fantasy Nascar from everything I’ve seen. The effect of different tracks was viewed as a positive element of the game as we try create as much opportunity for strategy/edge in our game offerings as possible.

    I think DFSviz’s comparison to different stadiums in DFS baseball was pretty good.

  • heartman

    First off I applaud Draftkings and Nascar for offering weekly Nascar fantasy to the DFS community. Great job guys!

    After looking over the scoring system I see a few issues that may need some fine tuning in my opinion.

    I completely agree with Slah about awarding points for “fastest laps”, “place differential“and “pass differential”. These are mostly meaningless stats that are difficult to handicap and tend to have a lot of luck involved and are not calculated during the race.

    I understand that you are trying to build a statistics based contest but there are other more important stats that can be used instead of those 3. You could award points for every lap ran in the top 5, the top 10 and the top 15 for example and those stats could be updated in-race.

    I also think that using only 5 drivers per team is not enough. There will be major lineup duplication.

    Another thing to consider will be the big statistical swings at the different tracks. At Watkins Glen they run only 90 laps while at Bristol and Martinsville the run 500 laps.

    Thanks for offering Nascar!

  • heartman

    There are several tracks like Darlington that chew up tires. A car 3 or 4 laps down and running 35th place pits 3 laps before every other car they run the fastest laps until the better cars pit. This happens almost every race. Fastest lap comes down to fresher tires.

    Fastest lap scoring is going to be screwed up.

  • Slah

    • 2015 NASCAR Live Final Champion

    @Markness said...

    The effect of different tracks was viewed as a positive element of the game as we try create as much opportunity for strategy/edge in our game offerings as possible.

    while creating as much opportunity for edge may be your intention, i am 100% positive that those 2 categories, as well as “pass differential” are not at all conducive to doing so.

    the edge is being able to successfully handicap the finishing position of the drivers. it’s really all you can do. pick the fastest cars, and let the chips fall where they may. as i said above, points tallied from any of those other categories is going to be happenstance, and increase the luck factor. i can see how from afar it would appear that loading up several various means of scoring would increase strategy and edge, but this is a case where it does the exact opposite.

    simplicity would have been king. something emulating the actual NASCAR scoring system, like Yahoo uses for their NASCAR game, would have been perfect. it places the highest importance on finishing position, and is extremely easy to follow and fun to sweat. it’s the best of both worlds: the biggest available edge while being the easiest and most fun to follow for newcomers.

    anyway….just one man’s opinion. i guess the proof will be in the pudding? as i said, i’m happy that it’s finally available in any capacity.

  • heartman

    At Daytona and Talladega the lead car almost never runs the fastest lap. Cars running at the back of the lead pack who get a draft will score all the fastest lap points.

  • DFSviz

    There’s WAY too much criticism in this thread for an event/sport that has YET to run yet. Let’s see how this plays out after the Coca-Cola 600 before jumping to any conclusions.

  • papa123

    Why r u guys posting on here if your smarter than multi million dollar companies lawyers?

  • ActionJunkie

    @DFSviz said...

    There’s WAY too much criticism in this thread for an event/sport that has YET to run yet. Let’s see how this plays out after the Coca-Cola 600 before jumping to any conclusions.

    I agree. Almost feels like entering DFS circa 2010 when season-long veterans swore it would never take off because there was too much “luck” involved :).

    With that said, some criticism seems fine and there is some interesting thoughts/opinions above BUT we gotta delve into more than “who wins the race.”

  • crazypaul

    @papa123 said...

    Why r u guys posting on here if your smarter than multi million dollar companies lawyers?

    ^^^This.

    Do you really think a multi-million dollar company that just got a $250 MIL investment from one of the largest corporations in the world would add NASCAR willy-nilly if it weren’t sure of its legality?

    Also, I’m sure his lack of response is due to the fact that he is not a lawyer, and usually big corporations leave legal questions/statements to the people they actually pay to give legal advice.

  • Bschwarze325

    @kingofthehill said...

    To anyone worried about these contests violating the UIGEA – a lot of people don’t think about (or tend to forget) the following…

    1. Spirit of the law
    Much of the language in the UIGEA – including and especially this ‘multiple events’ phrase – was drafted with the intent of:
    (a) preventing athletes from being able to “fix” a sportsbet, which clearly cannot happen with this game format; AND
    (b) preventing a user from drafting athletes all from one single team, which to the legislators would be too akin to a traditional sportsbet on that team. This is why they added the “multiple events” phrase.
    In Nascar (and golf for that matter), there are no teams, just individual athletes. There is simply no way that a users could draft a team in a way that looks like a traditional sportsbet on a single pro team, therefore they are well within the SPIRIT of the law.

    2. Letter of the law
    So lets go with Stewburtx8’s argument, which I completely agree with, and say that because the points in the contests derive from qualifying positions, and qualifiers are a separate event, then they are absolutely within the letter of the law.

    Conclusion:
    DK was able to get creative with that stats and points to satisfy the letter of the law, and they are certainly not violating the spirit of it.

    Someone has taken some criminal justice/law classes. Thanks for the input!

  • MrCalzone

    @crazypaul said...

    ^^^This.

    Do you really think a multi-million dollar company that just got a $250 MIL investment from one of the largest corporations in the world would add NASCAR willy-nilly if it weren’t sure of its legality?

    Also, I’m sure his lack of response is due to the fact that he is not a lawyer, and usually big corporations leave legal questions/statements to the people they actually pay to give legal advice.

    DK obviously did their due diligence and acquired the necessary legal opinions for them to offer NASCAR, but that shouldn’t dissuade them from sharing those opinions with the community.

    All of us (players and sites) benefit by transparency in the industry as we continue to watch the industry grow.

    What’s the harm in addressing the concerns?

  • X Unread Thread
  • X Thread with New Replies*
  • *Jumps to your first unread reply

Subforum Index

RotoGrinders.com is the home of the daily fantasy sports community. Our content, rankings, member blogs, promotions and forum discussion all cater to the players that like to create a new fantasy team every day of the week.

If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling 1-800-GAMBLER (1-800-426-2537) (IL). Gambling problem? Call 1-800-Gambler (NJ/WV/PA), 1-800-9-WITH-IT (IN), 1-800-522-4700 (CO) or 1-800-BETS OFF (IA). 21+. NJ/PA/WV/IN/IA/CO/IL only.