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  • kb32dawgs

    • 880

      RG Overall Ranking

    I will start off by saying that I play alomost 100% on FanDuel so my issues pertains mainly to them. I know this topic has been talked about before but its starting to get out of control. Looking at the results from last nights 1.5 Mil MLB tourney on FD, rothemark took first with 6 identical lineups and a payout of 445,000.02 and congrats to him for the winning line up, it was far beter than mine. But my issue is the guy coming in 2nd place that should have been rewarded with 100K only got 25k due to rothemarks 6 indenticals. Looking down at the remaining top 100 alomst all of which are trains. This is a huge disadvantage to those who can or want to only play one line up or an average Joe player. I’m all for multi entry tourneys but being able to run 27 indenticals like the_woat did is completely unfair to the rest of the field. I know most will say that if their line uos fail then better for the rest of us but that rarley happpens anymore. Most nights are winning line ups compiled of tran after train after train. In my opinion this is going to ruin DFS in the long run. If you want to run 400 line ups then go right ahead but to level the playing feild and the payouts they should each have to be unique. Just my thoughts.

  • Rothemark

    Fyi that was the first time I ever did that…. Simply because of the overlay…

  • louiescards

    DK KoTH winner

    @Rothemark said...

    Fyi that was the first time I ever did that…. Simply because of the overlay…

    Congrats on the huge hit!

  • kb32dawgs

    • 880

      RG Overall Ranking

    @AssaniFisher said...

    This is simply not true, yet it gets repeated all the time in these threads. I came into DFS as a guy who could only afford to put one LU in most GPPs, and now I have some experience putting in huge trains. When I was putting in only one LU my EV per LU was at its absolute highest, and the more LUs I add to my train the lower my EV per LU becomes. If you ask anyone in the know, they will echo these sentiments. If you are not able to make one +EV LU then you will not become +EV by putting in a ton of LUs, but rather your EV will become even worse than before.

    This is your opinion based on the fact that you use this method all the time. The whole thread was based on my opinion as an average Joe player which DFS does not cater to any longer. FD makes much more money on pros like yourself. Most of the opposition in this thread comes from pros or RG staff that have huge bankrolls to do this. I’m sure that I speak for alot of ‘regular’ type players that are slowing fading away from DFS because of things like this. If maybe the money payouts were structured a little different so next in line players dont get screwed so bad it’d be different.

  • hendry

    @kb32dawgs said...

    alot of ‘regular’ type players that are slowing fading away from DFS because of things like this

    not sure this is true.

  • AssaniFisher

    • 127

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #91

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • x2

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • x6

      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    @kb32dawgs said...

    This is your opinion based on the fact that you use this method all the time. The whole thread was based on my opinion

    Misunderstanding a fact is not equivalent to having an opinion. There is data out there which shows what happens to a person’s average outcome as they enter more and more LUs into one GPP, and the data is conclusive. As such, we can speak in facts rather than opinions about this topic.

  • mellofellowsu

    I think most casual players play Fanduel, realize it’s a fun enhancement to whatever sport they’re watching, and view it as an entertainment expense that MIGHT pay off. I’ve introduced a lot of people to DFS and none of them have any problems or are even aware of trains. If you’re not having fun with it you shouldn’t play.

    People have told you that maybe single-entry tournaments may be your cup of tea and maybe you should stick to that exclusively, since you know for sure you won’t be beat by trains. Step down and play 100 man leagues or smaller GPPs that aren’t populated by the pro players. There are several different routes you can take so that you aren’t subjected to an aspect of the game you don’t like. But the sites are able to offer those huge prize tournaments because some are willing to put those multiple entries in. If they go away so do the huge prize pools.

  • stephens2711

    Was going to chime in with something but this thread is a disaster already. OP is telling other people about their “opinions” being incorrect when there is actual statistical analysis while OP threw out a few assumptions of his/her own and claimed them to be facts. Never understood how people could develop this mentality. Anyway I prefer people running trains in GPP’s as well, don’t want to play against all unique lineups. Good luck to you next week.

  • ponzicrash

    @stephens2711 said...

    Was going to chime in with something but this thread is a disaster already. OP is telling other people about their “opinions” being incorrect when there is actual statistical analysis while OP threw out a few assumptions of his/her own and claimed them to be facts. Never understood how people could develop this mentality. Anyway I prefer people running trains in GPP’s as well, don’t want to play against all unique lineups. Good luck to you next week.

    He is wrong, but that doesn’t mean the sites shouldn’t take his complaints seriously.

    If recreational players don’t want someone finishing 1-5th with the same line up it doesn’t really matter why they don’t want it.

    In the same way a poker room with no max buy in may take complaints about big stacks bullying players in a cash game. Tables stakes means that isn’t a thing. That doesn’t change the fact most recreational players believe it.

  • chronoxiong

    I’m always going to remember doomsday70’s huge night in NBA a few years ago when he ran away with thousands of dollars in the $2 Shot. He ran a big train and took up most of the top 50 spots. He did the same for the other GPPs that night too. This identical lineup train works sometimes and that’s usually when we notice and have complaints about it. But I’m sure it doesn’t work all the time and that is the gamble that player(s) is willing to make. If I had the higher bankroll to do it, I would.

  • jimmyrad

    @AssaniFisher said...

    Misunderstanding a fact is not equivalent to having an opinion. There is data out there which shows what happens to a person’s average outcome as they enter more and more LUs into one GPP, and the data is conclusive. As such, we can speak in facts rather than opinions about this topic.

    oh great, another warlock trying to bring facts, logic, and reason to RG. BURN HIM!!!!

  • steveospeak

    @kb32dawgs said...

    This is your opinion based on the fact that you use this method all the time. The whole thread was based on my opinion as an average Joe player which DFS does not cater to any longer. FD makes much more money on pros like yourself. Most of the opposition in this thread comes from pros or RG staff that have huge bankrolls to do this. I’m sure that I speak for alot of ‘regular’ type players that are slowing fading away from DFS because of things like this. If maybe the money payouts were structured a little different so next in line players dont get screwed so bad it’d be different.

    I think many “regular” type of players do view this as a problem, but that doesn’t mean they are right.

    I will happily have as many trains as people want to throw in big tournaments as while a couple might hurt me, most will end up helping me since as many have said then I only have to beat that 1 line-up rather than some top player’s 10, 20, 50 different line-ups.

  • TwoSHAE

    @kb32dawgs said...

    This is your opinion based on the fact that you use this method all the time. The whole thread was based on my opinion as an average Joe player which DFS does not cater to any longer. FD makes much more money on pros like yourself. Most of the opposition in this thread comes from pros or RG staff that have huge bankrolls to do this. I’m sure that I speak for alot of ‘regular’ type players that are slowing fading away from DFS because of things like this. If maybe the money payouts were structured a little different so next in line players dont get screwed so bad it’d be different.

    What he was trying to say is not an opinion, but rather, a fact. More eloquently:

    (this is geared towards GPPs but also true in other formats)

    Let’s say entering ‘lineup 1’ has an EV of X. —> EV(lineup 1) = X

    Now when we decide to duplicate ‘lineup 1’ and enter it more times, the EV of a subsequent entry is always < the EV of the previous entry. This is because 1st place > 2nd place > 3rd place… and so on. Therefore, you can only win the maximum once, but you can lose the maximum every time. In other words, if you win on a 2x train, you get 1st + 2nd place money, not 2× 1st place money.

    Therefore:

    EV of entering ‘lineup 1’ as a 2x train —> X + (X-d_1) where d_1 is a positive number representing the upside truncation due to duplicating entries in a graduated payout structure.

    EV of entering ‘lineup 1’ as a 3x train —> X + (X-d_1) + (X – d_1 – d_2)

    And so on.

    There are two different debates here, though. The first is cleared up above — there is no debate that subsequent entries using the same lineup have lower EV.

    However, one could argue that it’s still bad because even though the EV of each entry is decreasing, it is still positive. For example:
    EV(entry 1) = +$10
    EV(entry 2) = +$9
    EV(entry 3) = +$7
    EV(entry 4) = +$4

    In this [likely] case, the EV goes down on each entry, but still increases overall. EV of first entry is $10, whereas EV of entering that same lineup 4x is $30.

    More sharp players running trains is bad for long-term liquidity in DFS, but good for short-term growing of prize pools.

  • GTRandy27

    It isn’t unfair at all imo. Think of the risk those guys are putting when running a train. Sure a big bankroll will always give an advantage, but then that lineup has to hit which is essentially one unique lineup and one entry.

  • footballfplyer55567

    On a related note, I saw this tonight: https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/9380933

    Classic 13 way tie!

  • hbbomaha

    @TwoSHAE said...

    The first is cleared up above — there is no debate that subsequent entries using the same lineup have lower EV.

    However, one could argue that it’s still bad because even though the EV of each entry is decreasing, it is still positive. For example:
    EV(entry 1) = +$10
    EV(entry 2) = +$9
    EV(entry 3) = +$7
    EV(entry 4) = +$4

    In this [likely] case, the EV goes down on each entry, but still increases overall. EV of first entry is $10, whereas EV of entering that same lineup 4x is $30.

    More sharp players running trains is bad for long-term liquidity in DFS, but good for short-term growing of prize pools.

    This one. The presentation of a winning train is still accurate, people with large bankrolls run them because they work. You can argue that you are reducing EV all day long, but you cannot deny the drain of long term liquidity, especially on the casual player that will never even know what EV is.

    One could certainly argue that this topic might be a case where an industry is overgrowing. We don’t know burn rates, we don’t know retention of new money and frankly we don’t know how new money is reacting.

    The advertising is look how you could win this huge amount of money on a small entry! When people see that one person can take in 35% of total winnings on a single lineup it may discourage repeated single bullets. May it is time to consider changing table limits, or maybe pay structure.

    All I know is that while the original argument of why is wrong, the root question isn’t.

  • footballfplyer55567

    @footballfplyer55567 said...

    On a related note, I saw this tonight: https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/9380933

    Classic 13 way tie!

    13 way tie for a trip to a live final… how is that even possible?!

  • realdeals

    @footballfplyer55567 said...

    13 way tie for a trip to a live final… how is that even possible?!

    2 games only.

  • eKing

    Maybe they did make unique lineups by placing the outfielders in alternate order. lol

  • emac

    @footballfplyer55567 said...

    On a related note, I saw this tonight: https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/9380933

    Classic 13 way tie!

    That gave me a good chuckle this morning!

    As fields get larger, we will probably see more of these…well, maybe not with a lucky 13, but I think one of the sites is going to have a cringe worthy moment when there is a duplicate lineup tie for one of the really big prizes.

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