INDUSTRY FORUM

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  • RotoHester

    What are the pro’s / con’s of the two big sites?

    If you could change anything —- what would it be and why?

    I’m all for discussing things that are wrong but we also would need to think of solutions.

    I have a feeling “late swap” is going to be a popular answer … and it is my initial thought too.

  • Lathum

    @clrockny24 said...

    sounds like it’s causing more problems than it’s worth lately. who thinks this is a good idea?

    I love it, as do many many others.

    I don’t want to have to be glued to my computer or phone right up until each tip. I have a family and kids. I don’t want to delay my kids bedtime to wait for lock, or have them in the tub and I’m checking my phone, and if I was to pull out my phone and update during dinner my wife may murder me.

    The reality is a lot of DFS players have other things to do from 7 PM on, or 4 PM if you are on the West Coast like me, and either can’t or don’t want to check in on lineups. And yes, I have been burned before.

    People keep bringing up the late swap, it is time to get over it already.

  • NESBears120

    @Lathum said...

    I love it, as do many many others.

    I don’t want to have to be glued to my computer or phone right up until each tip. I have a family and kids. I don’t want to delay my kids bedtime to wait for lock, or have them in the tub and I’m checking my phone, and if I was to pull out my phone and update during dinner my wife may murder me.

    The reality is a lot of DFS players have other things to do from 7 PM on, or 4 PM if you are on the West Coast like me, and either can’t or don’t want to check in on lineups. And yes, I have been burned before.

    People keep bringing up the late swap, it is time to get over it already.

    I love no late swap… I’ve been burned by it a few times this year, but as a college student I give myself a 2 hour dfs window from around 5-7 to research build lineups and whatever else needs to be done, after that i put my phone down and start studying and doing my homework without interruption instead of having to check my phone for injury updates all night

  • CUTiger81

    @tmarohl said...

    I think I would flatten the payout structure on both sites.
    For instance, tonights FD shot had a top price of 50K, 2nd was 20K, 3rd 10K. I think I would make the top prize 30K and take the 20K and spread it out across the entire pay structure so minimum cashes would be higher.

    Agree 100%. This is my biggest issue with the GPP’s currently. Even moreso than rake

  • sjs1890

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBC Finalist

    In a perfect world what would be the first thing I would change about the big 2 dfs sites??? Well that’s a pretty simple question the first change I would make is actually hire people in charge that actually know what they are doing with payout structures, entry limits, new game styles etc. I would put the people who made the draftstreet product in charge they had by far the best product even to this day im baffled they sold out to DK. Another thing I would bring back is snake drafts those would have a big demand and a great way to diversify cash games.

  • BloodGame

    @Lathum said...

    I love it, as do many many others.

    I don’t want to have to be glued to my computer or phone right up until each tip. I have a family and kids. I don’t want to delay my kids bedtime to wait for lock, or have them in the tub and I’m checking my phone, and if I was to pull out my phone and update during dinner my wife may murder me.

    The reality is a lot of DFS players have other things to do from 7 PM on, or 4 PM if you are on the West Coast like me, and either can’t or don’t want to check in on lineups. And yes, I have been burned before.

    People keep bringing up the late swap, it is time to get over it already.

    +1000000

    Have better things to do each night than being glued to twitter checking for late lineup changes.

  • Olhausen

    It very well just could be me and my style of play. Maybe because I got into Dfs the year before they took away the 6 man stacks and I was more successful then. It could just be that Dfs is getting harder by the year. I just noticed a number of nights last year where I lost that had I had the option of stacking a 6th man I would have won big money.

  • moped_jones

    I would like for late swap to come back on DK. I usually only play a couple LU’s and if someone is out after initial lock (but well before their game starts) my night is pretty much ruined (Jimmy Butler the other night + Derek Rose the night he just didn’t show up). I know what I spend is just peanuts, but it can really take the fun out of DFS which is unfortunate b/c DFS is supposed to be fun.

    If no late swap we should get to see ownership levels for every player even before their game starts.

    Keep the two sites separate. I enjoy playing on both and the strategies are different.

    Maybe lower the top few prizes and spread that out towards bottom. Nothing drastic, but it would be nice for cashing to at least be triple.

  • Lathum

    @sjs1890 said...

    In a perfect world what would be the first thing I would change about the big 2 dfs sites??? Well that’s a pretty simple question the first change I would make is actually hire people in charge that actually know what they are doing with payout structures, entry limits, new game styles etc. I would put the people who made the draftstreet product in charge they had by far the best product even to this day im baffled they sold out to DK. Another thing I would bring back is snake drafts those would have a big demand and a great way to diversify cash games.

    I have been playing on Draft. They are basically app based but have a website also. 3-6-10 man drafts and they are really soft. Easy payouts. Very efficient. No big GPPs but a really fun experience there so far.

  • QSchoolDropOut

    You guys seem a lot more sophisticated than me. A lot of what I have read is over my head.

    However, my main complaint is even when I am doing really well, it doesn’t feel like I am earning the money I should. For example, if I am in 300th place out of 15,000 teams, I should be making more than $2 if I paid $1 to enter the game. I should be making more than double my entry fee if I am beating 97 percent of the field. Perhaps, they are giving too much money for the top 5 finishers where it is nearly impossible to hit one of these jackpots when you play as few lineups as me. For a low dollar player like me, it appears my chances of hitting a jackpot are swallowed up by others who play 100s of lineups in the same contests. So, if I have no real chance to hit a jackpot, I should at least be able to make a nice little profit when one of my lineups does exceptionally well.

  • abragmania

    • 112

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    Definitely an interesting idea, and not a bad one.

    However, like someone said before, not enough games go into OT to the point that it creates that much havoc (at least not in comparison to no late swap).

    Also, part of rostering guys from a game that should stay close down the stretch is the benefit of those extra minutes, and also potential OT. This would seem to conflict with what I said before, but I’m sure stats would support games with smaller lines going into OT at a much higher rate than games with big spreads.

    So it seems only fair that you should get those stats, even if occasionally it screws up a slate. But again—no late swap makes it insane anyways, so I have no issues with OT stats.

  • abragmania

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    @Lathum said...

    And this is the main problem and why the sustainability of dfs is in question. It is supposed to be fun and entering a tournament with 1-3 lineups becomes very not fun when others have 150 lineups. It playing in a $5 heads up against a pro. Losing money and being prayed on by sharks is no fun. This was never meant to be a living for people but illustrated why we can’t have anything nice because people will always find a way to exploit it for their gain.

    It’s just hard to define pro I think. There are so many people who rake in cash but not tourneys, or vice versa, so is it an experience thing, a profitability thing, what really defines “pro?”

    But—Saahilsud should not be able to pick up $5 h2hs with inexperienced players. They should be able to pick his $5 h2hs up if he posts them, but they should know that he’s of a certain level of experience/skill, and that they’re high if they do it.

    And for the long-term viability of the industry, I would just hope that extremely profitable/experienced/high-stakes guys aren’t picking up small $ h2hs like that. That’s just not good for business. I’ve heard Saahil and others say they feel the same way about that too, so I think a lot of the sharks are on the same page in terms of not going after total amateurs, but again it’s hard to say who’s a pro and who isn’t.

  • abragmania

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    @QSchoolDropOut said...

    You guys seem a lot more sophisticated than me. A lot of what I have read is over my head.

    However, my main complaint is even when I am doing really well, it doesn’t feel like I am earning the money I should. For example, if I am in 300th place out of 15,000 teams, I should be making more than $2 if I paid $1 to enter the game. I should be making more than double my entry fee if I am beating 97 percent of the field. Perhaps, they are giving too much money for the top 5 finishers where it is nearly impossible to hit one of these jackpots when you play as few lineups as me. For a low dollar player like me, it appears my chances of hitting a jackpot are swallowed up by others who play 100s of lineups in the same contests. So, if I have no real chance to hit a jackpot, I should at least be able to make a nice little profit when one of my lineups does exceptionally well.

    To be honest, your complaint is really just about the overall structure of tournament payouts. They are intentionally super top-heavy—it’s all about being top 10-15 and everyone else kind of just does ok or doubles up.

    Certainly DK could make the payouts a little less top-heavy, and paying beyond the top 20% just spreads things out even more thinly, but there’s no way to make everyone happy with tourney payouts that’s for sure.

    I’d suggest smaller tournaments (10, 50, 100ppl kind of thing), single-entry or 3-max entry tourneys (prob your best bet), or the triple-up, winner-take-all, and other unusual format tourneys that I see on DK a lot.

  • depalma13

    Lets see…..

    1) DK Increase the payoff for winning a baseball GPP. The site destroyed GPPs with their horrible payoff structure. There should be only one goal in a GPP and that is to win. It’s extremely hard to win one and the payoff is no longer worth the risk.

    2) Get the sharks out of contests less than $5. These sites know if you have a profit or not. If you have a lifetime profit of 2K, you don’t get to enter $1 contests (cash or gpp) until you’re winnings fall below that level. Profit 5k, get removed from $2 and $1 contests. Profit $10k you are out of $3 and below. Profit 15k no $4 contests or below. Above that, you are on your own. If the sites want to run big GPPs, start them at $5 and than it is up to the player if he wants to go up against the sharks in their pool. The sites can even eliminate the entry caps because everyone knows what they are getting into at that point.

    3) If a slate has a minimum of seven games and players end up with identical lineups three times in a month in single entry tournaments, they get warned. If it happens again during that month, they get banned for the remainder of the month. If it continues, their account is suspended indefinitely. This is supposed to be a game of skill, not copy and paste.

  • DoubleTime

    • 2016 King of Summer: August

    @QSchoolDropOut said...

    You guys seem a lot more sophisticated than me. A lot of what I have read is over my head.

    However, my main complaint is even when I am doing really well, it doesn’t feel like I am earning the money I should. For example, if I am in 300th place out of 15,000 teams, I should be making more than $2 if I paid $1 to enter the game. I should be making more than double my entry fee if I am beating 97 percent of the field. Perhaps, they are giving too much money for the top 5 finishers where it is nearly impossible to hit one of these jackpots when you play as few lineups as me. For a low dollar player like me, it appears my chances of hitting a jackpot are swallowed up by others who play 100s of lineups in the same contests. So, if I have no real chance to hit a jackpot, I should at least be able to make a nice little profit when one of my lineups does exceptionally well.

    I feel the same way about not getting paid enough for a good finish. I think the problem is they are paying out too many spots. It used to be 20% of the field got paid, now it is often around 30%. That extra 10% of the field getting paid has ruined the payout structures. There is not the same reward for a high finish. I am not talking about a top 5 finish, because they often try to keep the very top spots the same. But I am talking a top 100-200 finish. There is a much quicker drop-off than there used to be outside of the top 5-10 spots.

    As an example, my best finish in NFL last year was 145th out of 479,166 (top 0.03%). I won $400 in a GPP that paid out 20% of the field.

    That same % finish this year in a nearly identical sized GPP paying out 30% of the field would have only won $150. That doesn’t seem adequate.

    I used to build a few line-ups and go after 1st place, but even if I fell a little short I knew I’d still get a nice payday. That does not happen anymore. If you fall just a little short you don’t get paid. The incentive is not the same, maybe it makes more sense to build safer lineups and just try to cash? It is like a weird double-up / winner-take-all hybrid, do you go after first place or just try to cash? IDK. You just cannot have a good GPP structure with 30% of the field getting paid.

    If DK had it there way, 100% of the field would get paid, and everybody would get $0.85 on the dollar. No withdraws, rake every dollar down to zero. The closer they can get to that, the more money they make. That is what they are after.

  • SelfCharmer

    If they ever want to be serious about getting European players into DFS, they will never add back in late swap for NBA. The lock for the prime-time slates is already midnight in the UK, I know they make up such a small % of the NBA player pool, but if DK want to expand the player pool (which is needed to keep the DFS ecosystem alive) then having late swap is just going to remove pretty much any European player form ever taking NBA seriously.

  • Roma315

    Wish FD would bring back the
    $2 entries min cash is $5
    $5 entries min cash is $12.50
    $25 entries min cash is $50 or $62.50

    This was very profitable. Now in most events you double up or less for a min cash. Say you min cash 50% of your lineups you usually show a small loss. Not saying the goal is to min cash but on your bad days you could still show a small profit instead of a loss when min payout was double or 2.5xs the buyin.

  • NewsboyMoriarty

    Do something about bottom feeding.Burns my ass when I see guys who play $1k buy in NHL gpps are also loading multi entries in the low level ($1-$3) gpps I’m flailing around in.If I lose fair and square I’m fine,play me for a chump,see ya DFS.I don’t have the time or inclination to invest in algorithms,quants and any other tech marvels the pros use.If the industry can survive without the rec.player,fine,if not,wake up.

  • Lathum

    @NewsboyMoriarty said...

    Do something about bottom feeding.Burns my ass when I see guys who play $1k buy in NHL gpps are also loading multi entries in the low level ($1-$3) gpps I’m flailing around in.If I lose fair and square I’m fine,play me for a chump,see ya DFS.I don’t have the time or inclination to invest in algorithms,quants and any other tech marvels the pros use.If the industry can survive without the rec.player,fine,if not,wake up.

    This is probably the biggest issue in the game and what will likely be its downfall. People like to compare DFS to online poker, and as someone who was very involved in online poker from the start there certainly are some parallels. The big difference is in online poker, it isn’t worth the time for a nosebleed player to play low stakes, so there were games for everyone. In DFS you can easily drop 150 entries into a GPP.

    Even someone with a basic knowledge of odds will tell you that it is unlikely you will ever win a GPP, and TBH its not why I play, but these days it is getting difficult to even cash. I remember when 300 was a lock to cash, now you are lucky if you get that. I think flatter payout structures would help, but at some point they need to figure out how to make this ecosystem sustainable because there is a finite number of new players.

    I would LOVE to see a study of how many players deposit once then never again, or how many do enough to grind out the bonus then walk. I suspect it is an alarming number.

  • drdolphin

    CSV export on FD.
    On FD it would be nice if when viewing live contests “by lineups” that it would show the points scored.
    Draftkings interface sucks. I play more on Fanduel because it’s easier to read. At least let me change the color scheme on DK that is easier on the eyes.

  • gridironguru99

    • 269

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    More regulation around rules and full transparency of our funds and company performance

  • IronMonkey415

    To be able to deposit $5 on FD.

  • ColtsPacersFan1

    How about FD implement a CSV script similar to DK. Then again, whats good for the goose is not so much for the gander. Aside from smoke and mirrors.

    Disheartening more than all is the lack of a level playing field for all. After witnessing a potential fraudulent event thats not even worthy of mention here for good reason is the simple fact there is no hope for honest players within DFS. One must have inside advantage to have any prayer whatsover within the confines of how DFS currently operates at specific sites.

    Never again willl this fish play for anything other than recreational purposes at FD until a csv script is adminstered and implemented. I do not believe it would extinguish all potential fraudulent offenses but it would certainly help keep it to a minimum.

    I simply do not understand why FD cannot look out for the best interests of its customer base. Is it as simple as pure GREED. Is it a matter of FD not making a profit?

    DFS in its purest form is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Why must it be ruined for excessive GREED. I realize FD and DK are both potentially in the “red” due to regulations / legal fees / operating fees / and so forth. How is anyones clue since it seems these sites would be raking it in with the current take in place.

    Again, understandable the regulations and fees associated with keeping DFS afloat were significant. However, DFS on the surface only seems to be thriving in every concievable way. Contests fill 98.9 % of the time. The demand is present and going nowhere.

    Why can these sites not above all else maintain a level playing field for all. Im not here to make accusations, or threats. I cherish DFS as I know many of you do as well. To see the potential corruption I witnessed yesterday evening not such even upsets me as it does simply disappoint and dishearten.

    There is no enjoyment playing competitively in a contest knowing full well others may have undue influence on the outcome. Essentially chance of success is all but eliminated for the contest begins.

    Not having a csv script on FD is a red flag that this fish never should have taken for granted. FD has done nothing to earn my faith and trust in the product. Yet it was given to FD anyways. “Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me”

    Lesson Learned. Hard Way. Corruption will ultimately lead to the demise of DFS. All the fun for me with DFS @ FD was virtually taken and tossed like bloody rag in the garbage for me after last evenings Jae Crowder replacement with Harkless after Lock in late slate contest 2.9.17.

    So above all if there is one change I would hope to see be made. It would be an honest environment with emphasis on transparency and fair play for all. As of now, the enjoyment virtually no longer exists.

    Who am I fooling. Very few here care about this issue because its not an issue for them. I am swimming among a sea of sharks that have no intentions of fair play until such will be forced upon them.

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