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  • Joe1Coal

    Day after day, I come onto the forum, which has had a steep downfall over the past 6 months, and see a thread about someone angry because they lost. If this was a court, there would be enough circumstantial evidence to call DFS gambling, based solely on the amount of people angry that they lost money alone. There has to be some kind of cease fire to the ridiculous amount of individuals who feel the need to post about how people are cheating, or how there is collusion. I have been playing DFS since May of 2013, and I am glad that it has exploded into the mainstream success that it is – however, I am just flat out sick of seeing all of the crybabies posting about how they lost.

    Take it like a man or woman, have some integrity, and stop complaining about every single loss. I have the distinct feeling that just like we see advertisements and ads that indicate, “Don’t play over your head” with casino games and poker, this is just the next in the line of activities that are leading people into debt. If you cannot afford to play, you really shouldn’t. This is the logical jump I am making, because otherwise, I have no idea why people feel the need to attack other people’s success and good fortune by attempting to sully their reputations. Two quotes:

    “Negative emotions like . . . envy . . . have an important role to play in a happy life; they’re big, flashing signs that something needs to change.”

    “People who make the choice to study, work hard or do whatever they endeavor is to give it the max on themselves to reach to the top level. And you have the people who get envy and jealous, yet are not willing to put that work in, and they want to get the same praise.”

    I am sure some of you will flame me for what I have said here, but I don’t really care. I am just sick of reading the whining, bickering nonsense. The big sites, FD, DK, and Victiv, they have policies that prevent double accounts. Whether or not they are sharing lineups, who cares? You only care when it leads to a loss, but what about when that same lineup drops 210.7 and 15 people have it? You win, I don’t see the same posts. I think people need to take a long look in the mirror and relax. This is supposed to be a fun hobby. I understand people being upset about a bad pick, and those things are understandable. “Oh, Alex Len was terrible.” “Oh Bumgarner gave up 7 ER tonight, crazy!” But, the allegations of cheating and calling people out is disgusting and we are all better than that. I really like the group of people here and I think we are all better than this (even though maybe 1% of the group is the problem)

    Just my $.02.

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    @8MileAllstars said...

    A few months ago in a similar sort of discussion someone made a really good point regarding DFS and sharing of information: DFS is more like placing a bet on a sporting event than playing poker. The sharing of information is no more than sports bettors sharing who they like amongst themselves and then placing a bet. The main difference is that the house in DFS is really the other players and not the sites themselves (with the noticeable exception of overlay).

    I personally think it’s kind of ridiculous to criticize guys like Condia, who don’t hold themselves out in any kind of public way. He’s justva guy/machine who makes money. However I think the dirty little DFS secret is that a lot of the “experts” really do seem to have very cozy relationships with each other which make you question their “public” advice. I’d love to see anyone that writes a public column as an “expert” post their lineup each night after games start to compare their advice to what they actually wage their own money on.

    The last couple lines is very tricky though!

    Take me for instance. I write my blog on Mon/Wed/Fri (sometimes big slates on off days). My full intention when writing it, in the morning/afternoon is to use each of those players. I usually build a lineup WHILE writing it to make sure they even fit in.

    However, with the NBA, so much news can change things as they day goes on. I may love a couple of PG’s, but when huge value opens up, I end up changing a few things. Keep that in mind.

    If the ‘experts’ wrote their articles 15 minutes before LU locks, you may see similar LU’s built from their advice, however it just doesn’t work that way as most work on their ‘picks’ in the mornings/early afternoon.

    Make sense?

  • 8MileAllstars

    @bhdevault said...

    The last couple lines is very tricky though!

    Take me for instance. I write my blog on Mon/Wed/Fri (sometimes big slates on off days). My full intention when writing it, in the morning/afternoon is to use each of those players. I usually build a lineup WHILE writing it to make sure they even fit in.

    However, with the NBA, so much news can change things as they day goes on. I may love a couple of PG’s, but when huge value opens up, I end up changing a few things. Keep that in mind.

    If the ‘experts’ wrote their articles 15 minutes before LU locks, you may see similar LU’s built from their advice, however it just doesn’t work that way as most work on their ‘picks’ in the mornings/early afternoon.

    Make sense?

    That totally makes sense and I don’t think I made my point clearly enough. While I think people would be interested in seeing the “experts” actual $$ picks, I’m just as interested in seeing how much over lap there is amongst the “experts”.

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    @8MileAllstars said...

    That totally makes sense and I don’t think I made my point clearly enough. While I think people would be interested in seeing the “experts” actual $$ picks, I’m just as interested in seeing how much over lap there is amongst the “experts”.

    Got ya! I read it wrong.

  • jbb18

    @walterg55 said...

    I don’t disagree with you for the most part. Where I diverge is on the small cash games and to some extent the smaller GPP’s. This is where the newcomer lives and plays (my opinion) and learns. The sharks are too prevalent there and simply saying “just make better lineup’s” isn’t the answer.

    ^^^^ This. I tried saying something similar to this last week and got flamed by many.

  • Putz

    @jbb18 said...

    ^^^^ This. I tried saying something similar to this last week and got flamed by many.

    Pretty much sums it up regarding the context of these activities.

  • sgaffney

    @8MileAllstars said...

    A few months ago in a similar sort of discussion someone made a really good point regarding DFS and sharing of information: DFS is more like placing a bet on a sporting event than playing poker. The sharing of information is no more than sports bettors sharing who they like amongst themselves and then placing a bet. The main difference is that the house in DFS is really the other players and not the sites themselves (with the noticeable exception of overlay).

    I personally think it’s kind of ridiculous to criticize guys like Condia, who don’t hold themselves out in any kind of public way. He’s justva guy/machine who makes money. However I think the dirty little DFS secret is that a lot of the “experts” really do seem to have very cozy relationships with each other which make you question their “public” advice. I’d love to see anyone that writes a public column as an “expert” post their lineup each night after games start to compare their advice to what they actually wage their own money on.

    I’ve heard this referenced many time by various experts and whether correct or not, they always have an out with NBA due to late breaking news and injuries. I use the incentives and i often end up playing those guys later in the evening (which is a strange concept as it is, especially if I beat them). Their L.U’s don’t always include their picks but you can’t fault them for that. There are many legitimate reasons why they might differ.

  • jbb18

    @Priptonite said...

    I think that Joe’s point is reasonable, though maybe communicated a bit aggressively lol. That being said, not all “whining” threads are created equally. There’s a big difference between “this is shady” and “I don’t like that so and so did this.”

    If you think something is shady then it’s probably fair to post about it. If you wanna complain that a shark scooped your $1 h2hs… the forum isn’t the place. There are players who do this for a living and they are gonna get their money however they can. People need to understand and accept that.

    “There are players who do this for a living and they are gonna get their money however they can”.

    I understand this. This point was made last week in a head to head thread. I understand it and accept it.

    I understand that people gotta make that money, even if it means 0.80 cents at time.

  • TakeTheOver

    DFS needs to learn from online poker. As online poker matured and innovated with HUDS and player databases, the “professionals” made it very unwelcoming/intimidating to the casual/recreational player.

    DFS should be fun, not life and death. If DFS stops being fun for recreational players like me, like poker became, DFS will shrink and all the sharks will have to feed on each other.

  • whistexpert

    @TakeTheOver said...

    DFS needs to learn from online poker. As online poker matured and innovated with HUDS and player databases, the “professionals” made it very unwelcoming/intimidating to the casual/recreational player.

    DFS should be fun, not life and death. If DFS stops being fun for recreational players like me, like poker became, DFS will shrink and all the sharks will have to feed on each other.

    This is a very good point.

  • STAV

    TakeTheOver makes a good point, sites should probably do an expansion of what DK does with their beginner games – lower the stakes and make the win amount for entry higher say like 250-500 games played or the like.

    JoeTheCoal – I respect your wishes for people to stop their bellyaching and throwing out wild accusations. I wholeheartedly agree that I don’t like it, but this is a public forum and people should be allowed to express what they want as long as it conforms to the rules of the site hosting the forum.

    Re: putting max effort in, of course that is what one should do in all endeavors, but it is in no way a guarantee of success whether in DFS or some other pursuit.

  • TooBigYo20

    Forget the experts posting their lineups comparing it to their picks and write ups. It will never happen. Create a sharkscope type thing that tracks hu’s/50-50’s/gpp’s wins/losses and prove who really is making money and who is just burning through tens of thousands on Q’s

  • Priptonite

    • Blogger of the Month

    @TooBigYo20 said...

    Forget the experts posting their lineups comparing it to their picks and write ups. It will never happen. Create a sharkscope type thing that tracks hu’s/50-50’s/gpp’s wins/losses and prove who really is making money and who is just burning through tens of thousands on Q’s

    I would certainly enjoy this lol

  • walterg55

    @TakeTheOver said...

    DFS needs to learn from online poker. As online poker matured and innovated with HUDS and player databases, the “professionals” made it very unwelcoming/intimidating to the casual/recreational player.

    DFS should be fun, not life and death. If DFS stops being fun for recreational players like me, like poker became, DFS will shrink and all the sharks will have to feed on each other.

    I know some people scoff/dislike at comparing poker to DFS but this is an excellent point and should not be overlooked or underestimated

  • rysportguy

    A way to fix the problem of experts not playing their plays is rather than blindly going with the choices experts make look into why they make those choices and if you agree with their reasoning than go with that player.

  • einars

    @rysportguy said...

    A way to fix the problem of experts not playing their plays is rather than blindly going with the choices experts make look into why they make those choices and if you agree with their reasoning than go with that player.

    gasp…..what an idea

  • TooBigYo20

    @rysportguy said...

    A way to fix the problem of experts not playing their plays is rather than blindly going with the choices experts make look into why they make those choices and if you agree with their reasoning than go with that player.

    But if experts aren’t going with their choices.. yet are promoting them.. then ummm ya.. intergrity? See the issue?
    Anytime I talk about CBB or write about it I have exposure to every guy I talk about whether cash or gpp and I usually only run 1 lineup.

    When some experts talk about guys, its like throwing darts. They may have a punt on one of 50 gpp teams and if it hits then omg genius. If it doesn’t, well the other 49 didn’t have him so you profit!

  • Priptonite

    • Blogger of the Month

    I don’t think that columnists/show hosts have any obligation to play the guys they mention. You can really like a guy but just not be able to fit him into your lineup, there’s nothing wrong with that.

  • sethayates

    @Priptonite said...

    I don’t think that columnists/show hosts have any obligation to play the guys they mention. You can really like a guy but just not be able to fit him into your lineup, there’s nothing wrong with that.

    Yesterday Russell Westbrook was 8% in the FanDuel Million Dollar Slam. I saw plenty of experts tout him but it appears most didn’t play him. Should we be mad about this?

  • Priptonite

    • Blogger of the Month

    @sethayates said...

    Yesterday Russell Westbrook was 8% in the FanDuel Million Dollar Slam. I saw plenty of experts tout him but it appears most didn’t play him. Should we be mad about this?

    You’ll have to excuse my lack of NBA knowledge but I assume he was pricey and had expected high ownership. Seems like a situation where many would fade him but obviously you still have to mention him because he’s a great player with a high ceiling.

  • sethayates

    @Priptonite said...

    You’ll have to excuse my lack of NBA knowledge but I assume he was pricey and had expected high ownership. Seems like a situation where many would fade him but obviously you still have to mention him because he’s a great player with a high ceiling.

    Which is exactly the point you were originally making. I was just providing a specific example. On the shows and in the articles the experts are giving their opinion on specific players and the logic behind it. If the pros were simply giving us their lineup we wouldn’t need an hour long show. We could just do a short video like beermakersfan does with his six pack.

    Another example of the same thing we are talking about here happened in hockey. Over the All-Star break I tried out NHL. There was a night where the Islanders top line was the consensus best play. In the Daily Plays article, Boggslite wrote up Lee, Bailey and even Leddy on D. Since the article wasn’t “GPP Stack” he simply mentioned Tavares in the disclaimer. On all his teams that night (including cash) Boggslite used Tavares. He also mentioned on the show that he was planning on doing this but not everyone who read the article also watched the show.

    My entire point here is that advice on this site is written for a certain audience. The experts aren’t giving you their lineup for the night. They are giving you some foundation plays to build around. Whether or not they play those same players is irrelevant. I don’t mind if people attack the logic behind a pick, but I see no reason for attacking the expert if they don’t use that pick.

  • LeoTPP

    RG Associate Editor

    Expert picks, in particular paid expert picks, have to be good enough to earn your trust and money, otherwise they’re only good for a couple of months and then the joke is up and you move on. Sites like RG, FI, etc don’t post lineups, they post picks, because that helps to educate and inform the reader and give them a foundation for building lineups rather than feeding them answers. It’s the “give a man a fish, teach a man to fish” concept.

    So no, not every pick an expert makes is gonna wind up in his primary cash lineup. There are countless reasons for this (including the experts own profits, which is totally understandable), and as long as the picks are good enough, why is it a concern? Especially when the picks often come with reasoning you can use to look at the rest of the slate and figure out the best plays that maybe weren’t mentioned.

    A poker pro wouldn’t give a live lesson from the table and tell his student “And as you can see, I’ve got Ace-Jack offsuit here, and I’ll want to…” so that everyone else can hear. So in a sense, giving out expert picks of any kind is 1. Proof of the skill game nature of DFS, that players are willing to give out components of their lineup and still hold an advantage and 2. Only a small portion of an expert players’ arsenal, which is why they’re an expert player, and shouldn’t come with an expectation that just by reading these articles, one will then also play at an expert level.

    Reading a poker pro’s book doesn’t make you a poker pro. Reading expert picks doesn’t make you an expert. They’re a resource for temporary profit and, for wise players, a building block for long-term success.

    As for lineup sharing, collusion, cheating, etc., I agree that it’s often only brought up when someone is on the losing end, and that paints an unfortunate cloud of doubt over the intentions. Every time I died playing CounterStrike on my computer, I assumed the other player was hacking, when in reality some of them were just the best players in the world. But that doesn’t mean some of them weren’t cheating. Which is the spark that fuels the eventual fire.

    Anyone can put together the right players to win big money in DFS. Even if you play every night, you can string together the right plays to cash big and win life-changing money. No lineup sharing or collusion or “misleading” expert picks can actually prevent you from making a better lineup. Does a shared lineup across pros that spans 150 entries in a big GPP make the field theoretically tougher? Absolutely. But if you want an easy “game” to play, there are video games with difficulty sliders, and there are ESPN public fantasy leagues and games for fantasy sports.

    Every night when I lose, I see things I could have done better first, before worrying about any other circumstantial stuff. If it turns out someone is cheating in a truly game-altering way, then I’ll be pissed off. But how else do sites make the game “easier” and “more fun” for less skilled players without further removing “skill” from the equation? If they take away multi-entry abilities from big GPPs, they’ll shrink the GPP size, which nullifies some of that impact. If they somehow find a way to limit sharing lineups, that just means there will be other equally strong lineups crafted by pros who make a ton of money out there, and it won’t change your bottom line that much. Why would pros share lineups with other pros incapable of carrying their own weight on their own? If someone wants to throw money at DFS without knowing the game, they stake someone or partner with someone, they don’t find their way into some hidden inner circle and “share” lineups. All of these guys are good enough to make their own lineups that probably beat yours more often than not, and forcing them into fewer entries and more unique lineups isn’t gonna move the needle and make the game “easier” or “more fun” for people who don’t like losing.

  • byoh

    • Moderator

    @LeoTPP said...

    Expert picks, in particular paid expert picks, have to be good enough to earn your trust and money, otherwise they’re only good for a couple of months and then the joke is up and you move on. Sites like RG, FI, etc don’t post lineups, they post picks, because that helps to educate and inform the reader and give them a foundation for building lineups rather than feeding them answers. It’s the “give a man a fish, teach a man to fish” concept.

    So no, not every pick an expert makes is gonna wind up in his primary cash lineup. There are countless reasons for this (including the experts own profits, which is totally understandable), and as long as the picks are good enough, why is it a concern? Especially when the picks often come with reasoning you can use to look at the rest of the slate and figure out the best plays that maybe weren’t mentioned.

    A poker pro wouldn’t give a live lesson from the table and tell his student “And as you can see, I’ve got Ace-Jack offsuit here, and I’ll want to…” so that everyone else can hear. So in a sense, giving out expert picks of any kind is 1. Proof of the skill game nature of DFS, that players are willing to give out components of their lineup and still hold an advantage and 2. Only a small portion of an expert players’ arsenal, which is why they’re an expert player, and shouldn’t come with an expectation that just by reading these articles, one will then also play at an expert level.

    Reading a poker pro’s book doesn’t make you a poker pro. Reading expert picks doesn’t make you an expert. They’re a resource for temporary profit and, for wise players, a building block for long-term success.

    As for lineup sharing, collusion, cheating, etc., I agree that it’s often only brought up when someone is on the losing end, and that paints an unfortunate cloud of doubt over the intentions. Every time I died playing CounterStrike on my computer, I assumed the other player was hacking, when in reality some of them were just the best players in the world. But that doesn’t mean some of them weren’t cheating. Which is the spark that fuels the eventual fire.

    Anyone can put together the right players to win big money in DFS. Even if you play every night, you can string together the right plays to cash big and win life-changing money. No lineup sharing or collusion or “misleading” expert picks can actually prevent you from making a better lineup. Does a shared lineup across pros that spans 150 entries in a big GPP make the field theoretically tougher? Absolutely. But if you want an easy “game” to play, there are video games with difficulty sliders, and there are ESPN public fantasy leagues and games for fantasy sports.

    Every night when I lose, I see things I could have done better first, before worrying about any other circumstantial stuff. If it turns out someone is cheating in a truly game-altering way, then I’ll be pissed off. But how else do sites make the game “easier” and “more fun” for less skilled players without further removing “skill” from the equation? If they take away multi-entry abilities from big GPPs, they’ll shrink the GPP size, which nullifies some of that impact. If they somehow find a way to limit sharing lineups, that just means there will be other equally strong lineups crafted by pros who make a ton of money out there, and it won’t change your bottom line that much. Why would pros share lineups with other pros incapable of carrying their own weight on their own? If someone wants to throw money at DFS without knowing the game, they stake someone or partner with someone, they don’t find their way into some hidden inner circle and “share” lineups. All of these guys are good enough to make their own lineups that probably beat yours more often than not, and forcing them into fewer entries and more unique lineups isn’t gonna move the needle and make the game “easier” or “more fun” for people who don’t like losing.

    I love that you just referred to counterstrike in a DFS post…. I too thought everyone was cheating when I died!

  • alsmizzle

    • 2013 RotoGrinders TPOY Champion

    • $1M Prize Winner

    @byoh said...

    I love that you just referred to counterstrike in a DFS post…. I too thought everyone was cheating when I died!

    Stupid AWP whores

  • dp47

    • 2012 RotoGrinders TPOY Champion

    • 2012 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    • 2013 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    • 2013 FanDuel NFL Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @LeoTPP said...

    Sites like RG, FI, etc don’t post lineups, they post picks, because that helps to educate and inform the reader and give them a foundation for building lineups rather than feeding them answers. It’s the “give a man a fish, teach a man to fish” concept.

    They don’t post lineups anymore because DraftStreet said affiliates had to stop posting lineups. Not because they want us to go fishing or quote the bible.

  • Priptonite

    • Blogger of the Month

    Also… they still post lineups: https://rotogrinders.com/projected-stats/nba/lineup?site=fanduel

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