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  • Jshiffy

    Important: this is not an attack on Kyle, I’ve listened to some interviews with him and follow him on twitter and he seems like a cool guy, this is simply a question.

    That being said, has anybody had experience with Kyle scooping your NHL h2h this year? I feel like he has scooped exactly 1 of my $1 h2h before i can even reload the page no matter what time I create the game. Is it possible he is using a script or software?

  • sethayates

    @tomac said...

    My apologies if that came across wrong.

    I assumed we were operating from the basic tenet that auto scooping scripts kill the head to head cash game market. You are correct that this point can easily get lost in 20+ pages of infighting and obvious attempts to derail that point.

    Since, I’m making points that people seem to agree with today let me add one more thing.

    Even though FanDuel doesn’t realize it, the lack of a matchup blocker and the presence of auto-scooping is actually hurting their bottom line. The popular opinion in this thread is that FanDuel caters to high stakes players. That may or may not be true, but from a business perspective it doesn’t make sense.

    Several in this thread have stated that the solution here is simply not to post games. In one corner we have kcannon and his script that will take any available action. Assumedly, he has some games posted as well, but he’s also willing to play anyone that posts a game. In the other corner, we have several people who are tired of getting auto-scooped. They would be willing to post games if they could play someone besides kcannon. Right now they can’t do that so they aren’t playing H2H at all. As you said, that is killing the H2H market.

    There are plenty of people in this thread who aren’t “losers” but are complaining because the H2H market isn’t fair. Imagine the H2H market is the housing market. FD and DK are the realtors. They connect buyers and sellers. Now imagine you want to buy a house. Kcannon and his auto-scoop script is a large investor that flips houses. In this case, he has a friend that is a realtor that alerts him to cheap houses before they ever hit the market. He’s buying them before they ever get to the market. The realtor is still getting their commission. He’s not buying every house though, just the best deals. Everyone else gets to shop on the market but they only get access to the deals that he passes up. Could a person still make money flipping houses without access to the same deals that Kcannon gets? Sure, but the deals he is getting probably have a higher profit percentage. If the realtor wants to be fair, the deals need to be offered to everyone. If you are the seller buying in the secondary market who complains, that doesn’t mean you are losing money. It just means you want the same access.

  • donnybasbl

    • 765

      RG Overall Ranking

    Has anyone ever tried to do a high level analysis of what FD would lose in rake (If anything) by having a matchup blocker or tier limits?

    For instance, I play moderate stakes and regularly post $500-$750 per week in H2H games on DK in NFL at levels between $5 and $50. This past week, I posted $30 total on FD. The ONLY reason is that I don’t want one guy scooping all my games, because if I wanted that, i’d post a $535 H2H.

    So how many guys like me are there, as opposed to the money they could potentially lose (or not) by having a matchup blocker?

  • kdjac0434

    @donnybasbl said...

    Has anyone ever tried to do a high level analysis of what FD would lose in rake (If anything) by having a matchup blocker or tier limits?

    For instance, I play moderate stakes and regularly post $500-$750 per week in H2H games on DK in NFL at levels between $5 and $50. This past week, I posted $30 total on FD. The ONLY reason is that I don’t want one guy scooping all my games, because if I wanted that, i’d post a $535 H2H.

    So how many guys like me are there, as opposed to the money they could potentially lose (or not) by having a matchup blocker?

    I don’t post H2H for this reason.

  • Tsrobertson

    He wants to keep putting up 26 point lineups he can scoop all my H2H he wants lol

  • kaetorade

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBBC Finalist

    @donnybasbl said...

    Has anyone ever tried to do a high level analysis of what FD would lose in rake (If anything) by having a matchup blocker or tier limits?

    For instance, I play moderate stakes and regularly post $500-$750 per week in H2H games on DK in NFL at levels between $5 and $50. This past week, I posted $30 total on FD. The ONLY reason is that I don’t want one guy scooping all my games, because if I wanted that, i’d post a $535 H2H.

    So how many guys like me are there, as opposed to the money they could potentially lose (or not) by having a matchup blocker?

    This is the main reason that DK is now my site of choice. I’m a cash game player that LOVES variety of opponents. DK guarantees that.

  • donnybasbl

    • 765

      RG Overall Ranking

    @kaetorade said...

    This is the main reason that DK is now my site of choice. I’m a cash game player that LOVES variety of opponents. DK guarantees that.

    It’s too bad, though. In football, I have more success on DK, but in MLB and NBA, I find that i’m far better at creating lineups on FD. I would like to be posting a lot more games on FD, but I don’t for the same reason as you.

  • tomac

    Not to open up a Pandora’s box here, but let’s just say I am not exactly oozing confidence that this is a singular “confusion in communication.”

  • j123

    If this thread wasn’t started, KCannon would still be using a script that was approved but is against the TOS. How many other scripts are in violation of the TOS? I’m guessing Kyle’s wasn’t the only one. The “approval” system is nothing more than window dressing.

    Fanduel’s incompetence as a company gets more staggering by the day.

  • DCoop328

    @sethayates said...

    The problem is that the site was allowing kcannon access to differentiate opponents but then he was effectively blocking anyone else from being able to do the same. The reason people play H2Hs is to reduce variance. The idea is that if you find 100 different opponents you should win roughly the amount you deserve. If you build a 45 percentile lineup you win about 45 percent of your games.

    By using this script, kcannon was able to get one game per opponent as they were posted. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. The problem is that kcannon’s script effectively blocked anyone else from getting the same opportunity. If I want to try and find 100 different H2Hs using a manual process I can’t because anytime a new person posts a H2H it gets automatically scooped. Also, when players H2H is instantly scooped by the same person they quit posting H2Hs in the future. This effectively limits the amount of action available in the lobby.

    I will continue to repeat the same thing everyone else is saying. FD and DK need to end automation. ALL OF IT. If FD/DK want to allow something similar to what kcannon was using, it needs to be built into the site. Everyone should get the same opportunity to differentiate their action. Allowing someone to run an automated process is not fair.

    HALLELUJAH!!! EVERYONE THIS IS THE PROBLEM WE ARE ARGUING. STAY ON TOPIC.

  • DCoop328

    @sethayates said...

    Since, I’m making points that people seem to agree with today let me add one more thing.

    Even though FanDuel doesn’t realize it, the lack of a matchup blocker and the presence of auto-scooping is actually hurting their bottom line. The popular opinion in this thread is that FanDuel caters to high stakes players. That may or may not be true, but from a business perspective it doesn’t make sense.

    Several in this thread have stated that the solution here is simply not to post games. In one corner we have kcannon and his script that will take any available action. Assumedly, he has some games posted as well, but he’s also willing to play anyone that posts a game. In the other corner, we have several people who are tired of getting auto-scooped. They would be willing to post games if they could play someone besides kcannon. Right now they can’t do that so they aren’t playing H2H at all. As you said, that is killing the H2H market.

    There are plenty of people in this thread who aren’t “losers” but are complaining because the H2H market isn’t fair. Imagine the H2H market is the housing market. FD and DK are the realtors. They connect buyers and sellers. Now imagine you want to buy a house. Kcannon and his auto-scoop script is a large investor that flips houses. In this case, he has a friend that is a realtor that alerts him to cheap houses before they ever hit the market. He’s buying them before they ever get to the market. The realtor is still getting their commission. He’s not buying every house though, just the best deals. Everyone else gets to shop on the market but they only get access to the deals that he passes up. Could a person still make money flipping houses without access to the same deals that Kcannon gets? Sure, but the deals he is getting probably have a higher profit percentage. If the realtor wants to be fair, the deals need to be offered to everyone. If you are the seller buying in the secondary market who complains, that doesn’t mean you are losing money. It just means you want the same access.

    OMG SETH IS SPITTING STRAIGHT FIRE RIGHT NOW. This is exactly my thoughts.

  • Turn2gold

    @srolleDFS said...

    being naive is exclusive with being self-aware of being naive by definition.

    most people dont care about any of this stuff, they just enjoy playing. how many people come onto these forums to complain about something they “love”? nearly everyone that plays dfs just plays the game. there probably 20-50 people, like you, dedicated to trolling the big sites over every imagined scandal. and then how many people will just play this weekend? maybe 500,000? its just a loud ultra-minority that is raising issue after issue in hopes that some gambling lobbyist will run with it.

    How many of those 500,000 people that just play have no idea about Rotogrinders even better have no idea that certain players are given permission to run automated tools …Without Rotogrinders i would have no idea about the automation i was under the impression that Draftkings and Fanduels were seperate from the players .

  • Putz

    @hbbomaha said...

    So Putz, you seem reasonable enough, would you mind answering an opinion question on the Kcannon situation?

    Let’s operate under the premise that it was inadvertent running a targeting script that was against TOS.

    If FD approved and KCannon self-reported as a result of this thread, do you agree with the actions taken by FD?

    That is to say, investigation, determination that it was in violation, disabling the script and reinstating?

    Just curious where you fall into the equity of punishment on the basis of intent and cooperation, not trying to steadfastly say the intent one way or another, just more philosophy of crime and punishment, as it were.

    I think the big issue is classifying the inadvertent part and don’t think intent should be totally dismissed. Questioning whether it was really inadvertent is valid. Was it really inadvertent? This scooping issue has been going on for possibly a year now and comments by users on RG suggest that. This is one of the main reasons it reached its first high point late spring/early summer in Scriptgate I. Seems users that have been doing this before, even though it was against TOS, likely just submitted for approval and carried on business as usual after rules were changed. We never will know whether this was inadvertent, but greed has taken over many good people.

    To your point, if a user submits a script, they better know how it works, and FD better know how to evaluate how it works. Both are at fault. Regarding penalty, something more than a three hour timeout/1 day ban would have sufficed. That’s not my call, but how many times are people allowed to break the rules before dealt a significant punishment to deter the behavior from others in the future? It’s not out of the question to think many scriptors were already knowingly breaking the TOS with no punishment, and IF KC was one, this is strike #2 provided it was not inadvertent.

    Regarding equity of punishment, I’ve heard rumors of people being banned longer from FD last year for surpassing some artificially low game per day threshold, one that is not even in the TOS, a few of times, than for this action, which in my view impacts more people.

  • Putz

    @sethayates said...

    Since, I’m making points that people seem to agree with today let me add one more thing.

    Even though FanDuel doesn’t realize it, the lack of a matchup blocker and the presence of auto-scooping is actually hurting their bottom line. The popular opinion in this thread is that FanDuel caters to high stakes players. That may or may not be true, but from a business perspective it doesn’t make sense.

    Several in this thread have stated that the solution here is simply not to post games. In one corner we have kcannon and his script that will take any available action. Assumedly, he has some games posted as well, but he’s also willing to play anyone that posts a game. In the other corner, we have several people who are tired of getting auto-scooped. They would be willing to post games if they could play someone besides kcannon. Right now they can’t do that so they aren’t playing H2H at all. As you said, that is killing the H2H market.

    There are plenty of people in this thread who aren’t “losers” but are complaining because the H2H market isn’t fair. Imagine the H2H market is the housing market. FD and DK are the realtors. They connect buyers and sellers. Now imagine you want to buy a house. Kcannon and his auto-scoop script is a large investor that flips houses. In this case, he has a friend that is a realtor that alerts him to cheap houses before they ever hit the market. He’s buying them before they ever get to the market. The realtor is still getting their commission. He’s not buying every house though, just the best deals. Everyone else gets to shop on the market but they only get access to the deals that he passes up. Could a person still make money flipping houses without access to the same deals that Kcannon gets? Sure, but the deals he is getting probably have a higher profit percentage. If the realtor wants to be fair, the deals need to be offered to everyone. If you are the seller buying in the secondary market who complains, that doesn’t mean you are losing money. It just means you want the same access.

    Agree with you on one point finally. I post a lot of H2H in CFB and would post more at higher stakes if it weren’t for a certain select few who take most of my $25 and above, preventing me from diversifying my play.

  • hbbomaha

    @Putz said...

    Regarding equity of punishment, I’ve heard rumors of people being banned longer from FD last year for surpassing some artificially low game per day threshold, one that is not even in the TOS, a few of times, than for this action, which in my view impacts more people.

    Bingo bango bongo.

    I can’t tell if the reaction is basically admission of error on FD, or preferential treatment of a high rake generating player.

    If the latter, is there a good way altruistic players can police for equity? Who better to spot the super user(s)?

    Plus if users were to outright publicly cause a ruckus consistently, would it not cause the providers to at minimum attempt to maintain order?

    Or is public shaming not a significant detractor in the face of the greed you mention?

  • Putz

    @hbbomaha said...

    Plus if users were to outright publicly cause a ruckus consistently, would it not cause the providers to at minimum attempt to maintain order?

    Well, outcry about Scriptgate I resulted in a change of rules to benefit those breaking the rules, not any attempt to maintain order. Crazy.

  • hbbomaha

    @Putz said...

    Well, outcry about Scriptgate I resulted in a change of rules to benefit those breaking the rules, not any attempt to maintain order. Crazy.

    Touche. Maybe with increasing public oversight as additional leverage a result differs? Or maybe I’m just suggesting the approach of insanity…

  • Putz

    Just curious, given the reactionary nature of the sites (e.g., pulling RG results feeds), why have they not ended scripting after the negative press of late?

    Is it because hot would impact their bottom line? If so, is this more systemic than we originally thought?

  • RTLONG

    This explains a lot. Seems like when I would post H2Hs in the past he would take them pretty fast. Didn’t do him much good because I have a pretty good record against him but this would explain why every time I post a H2H it’s taken by him or one of the other “pros.” I don’t play dollar games either. I play 109, 270, 535, 1065, and it’s the same thing. I guess if you don’t have “thousands of wins” that’s what happenes….but it’s whatever to me I feel like I can beat anybody in a H2H more than they beat me.

  • jnoboa

    • 2015 FanDuel CFB Playboy Mansion Finalist

    Quite a thorny issue. Like many players on here I typically stick with tournaments. I have done some h2hs, but frankly I find them to be rather boring. I am curious how many upper echelon players truly use h2hs as a reliable way to build their bankrolls or more as a mechanism to quickly build up win count? I suppose you could do both given enough volume. As for me, tournaments suit my style much better. Personally I do not have anything against scripting per se, especially if it is a tool that is available to all (which it seems it is not). I don’t mind if my competitors use them to generate multiple lineups for tournaments for instance. However, indirectly the lack of transparency and the furor of many new players may ruin this for all of us.

    I am not exactly sure what the solution is, but the media portrayal of novices losing their shirts to sharks is a very powerful story regardless of whether we think this is reality. I think we need to realize that if the industry does not find a way for new players to freely compete then the narrative of 1% versus the rest will be the prevailing story. Like many of you I actually enjoy manually entering lineups and I look forward to playing against the best DFS players. The reality is that the casual player gazelle does not have a good chance if he is continually pitted against the lions. Sure you can argue that the casual player should just play better but with so much media scrutiny, I think we as DFS players should have a much broader view of the situation. No one will deny that it is nice to be paired up with the rookie who starts Kyle Kendrick in Coors, but in the long run these types of institutional mismatches potentially threaten all of DFS.

    I am really glad for DFS and I hope other new players can find a similar amount of success. This of course means allowing for more transparency. In some regards the DFS world and its problems mirror some of the issues that have forever plagued the stock market and financial sector. Hopefully, some regulation will spur new players to feel like they have a new shot while still rewarding the players who legitimately display talent. Good luck!

  • MikeMineo

    @j123 said...

    If this thread wasn’t started, KCannon would still be using a script that was approved but is against the TOS. How many other scripts are in violation of the TOS? I’m guessing Kyle’s wasn’t the only one. The “approval” system is nothing more than window dressing.

    Fanduel’s incompetence as a company gets more staggering by the day.

    It’s truly amazing that they are reliant on users to self-police the industry. Utter incompetence no matter how you slice it.

  • depalma13

    @ItzJamesFTW said...

    I never once have felt like my games were unfair.

    You ever play in a three man league and your two opponents have the exact same lineup?

  • hbbomaha

    @Putz said...

    Just curious, given the reactionary nature of the sites (e.g., pulling RG results feeds), why have they not ended scripting after the negative press of late?

    Is it because hot would impact their bottom line? If so, is this more systemic than we originally thought?

    I feel like RG results feed is more about data integrity and 3rd party data controls more so than anything else. I could be off base, but I imagine that to be more a temporary situation.

    That said, I agree. It was pressed during DB’s interview with Robbins and it was basically ballyhooed as unimportant and simplified the monotonous.

    I start looking at StarsDraft more by the day.

    I think it is systemic, but I think it’s systemic as a result of overgrowth. Now they closed a capital round at a certain valuation, and we’re able to show revenue growth rapidity, which factors into the Cap of Earnings. In anyway discouraging the pace of revenue growth, let alone the actual revenue could lead to a down round. Down rounds kill momentum which kills IPO chances.

    If they took an experienced and smart route it would be to slow down, fix the problems, burn off bad revenue sources, take a down growth and a down round if need be(although venture debt is probably the way to go) and grow back healthy and sustainably.

    This is a classic business problem. “We don’t want to stop selling to x because they give us so much revenue.” When x is killing your working cap, or jeopardizing your entire model, it’s best to cut ties and find better ways to go.

  • Ryazan

    • x3

      2015 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    • x2

      2015 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @depalma13 said...

    You ever play in a three man league and your two opponents have the exact same lineup?

    so in other words, if you beat 1 lineup, you will triple your buy in instead of doubling it…..sounds like a good deal actually. You can only come in 1st in a 3 man league right? So actually, your two opponents have assured themselves that neither of them will win since if they beat you, they will just be tied for 1st, which will give them back slightly less than their buy in.

  • btwice80

    @kaetorade said...

    This is the main reason that DK is now my site of choice. I’m a cash game player that LOVES variety of opponents. DK guarantees that.

    Am I missing some trick to getting h2h volume on DK? I posted ten each (and I would like to get more than that) at four different price points earlier this week and a grand total of 12 have been taken. Meanwhile at FD my h2hs sell like hotcakes. I’ve already got about 200 different opponents. Only a few have taken more than one. I could easily get 500 or more different h2h opponents at FD if I wanted that many.

  • btwice80

    @depalma13 said...

    You ever play in a three man league and your two opponents have the exact same lineup?

    I would absolutely love it if every single 3-man I played both my opponents had the same lineup.

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