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  • Epicsic

    I play regularly on draftkings at low limit heads up always a dollar. Usually 10-15 a night. I’ve come across two players that always have the exact same lineup every single night. It’s been pretty profitable scooping all of their lineups knowing they play same thing but my question is how can I figure out which optimizer they are using? Is there a way I can put their lineup in somewhere and it tells me where it comes from? I honestly want to take all their money. I study and hand build my lineup everyday and it makes me sick seeing people that just try and plug a lineup in from an optimizer. I’m not talking about people that pick cores and adjust the optimizer for lineup construction because it’s clear these two are not doing that. It’s the exact same lineup every single day . But to be honest I want to take all their money if I can figure out which optimizer/lineup seller they are going too.

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    I suggest visiting this page: https://www.draftkings.com/lp/community-guidelines

    Discussing strategy around building lineups, statistics, and the quality of your picks publicly or privately is allowed. It isn’t breaking the rules. The rules go on to say:
    Example A: Having a group chat with other friends who play on DraftKings to discuss players that you think will be great plays in that day’s contests.
    Example B: You work closely with a friend on building the perfect lineup together.

    I actually wished more players read that page and understood it. So many out there think having the same cash game lineup as your friend is cheating. Absolutely nothing wrong with you and your friend(s) working together to build a good cash lineup.

  • gvn2fly1421

    Imagine that, a RG employee sees nothing wrong with same group of players always having the same lineup… Out of curiosity, what do you see as a problem? Anything? If my friend and my brother discuss strategy then proceed to build 450 unique lineups between the three of us, is that against the guidelines?

    As to the OP, if you are taking all these guys (or girls) money, why are you even bringing it up?

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    @gvn2fly1421 said...

    Imagine that, a RG employee sees nothing wrong with same group of players always having the same lineup… Out of curiosity, what do you see as a problem? Anything? If my friend and my brother discuss strategy then proceed to build 450 unique lineups between the three of us, is that against the guidelines?

    As to the OP, if you are taking all these guys (or girls) money, why are you even bringing it up?

    I don’t see any problem with building a lineup with a friend for cash games, honestly. Has nothing to do with being a RG employee. If I sit and chat with a buddy, we discuss back and forth and come up with what we think is the optimal lineup for that week, what’s exactly wrong with that?

    Now, building 450 unique lineups together is definitely circumventing the rules, as the page I linked shows. Did you give the effort to actually read that page, or did you just look for an opportunity to take a potshot at RG and myself?

  • Felixxberg

    • 2019 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    • 2019 DraftKings FHWC Finalist

    I must agree with bhdevault here. I’d rather enter a contest where everyone has the same lineup than going against all different lineups. That way, I only have to beat one lineup to win.

    Having the same lineup 450 times in a 150 max contest doesn’t give them any advantage. In fact, I even see it as a disadvantage. Having 450 different lineups in a 150 max contest would definitely give them an advantage as they would cover more possibilities than they should be able to.

  • Pbasniper

    @bhdevault said...

    I don’t see any problem with building a lineup with a friend for cash games, honestly. Has nothing to do with being a RG employee. If I sit and chat with a buddy, we discuss back and forth and come up with what we think is the optimal lineup for that week, what’s exactly wrong with that?

    Now, building 450 unique lineups together is definitely circumventing the rules, as the page I linked shows. Did you give the effort to actually read that page, or did you just look for an opportunity to take a potshot at RG and myself?

  • gvn2fly1421

    @bhdevault said...

    I don’t see any problem with building a lineup with a friend for cash games, honestly. Has nothing to do with being a RG employee. If I sit and chat with a buddy, we discuss back and forth and come up with what we think is the optimal lineup for that week, what’s exactly wrong with that?

    Now, building 450 unique lineups together is definitely circumventing the rules, as the page I linked shows. Did you give the effort to actually read that page, or did you just look for an opportunity to take a potshot at RG and myself?

    OK, so in my example me and buddies discuss lineups and we discuss which one of us is going to take player A and which one of us is going to take player B and so on. How is that different than your example? How can you limit the rule to just cash games vs gpp? The rule is bullshit and is not followed, let’s be real.

    Do you think what the chipotle brothers do is against the rules? I don’t want no toe the company line response, I am asking if you think it is against that rule. And it is not just them, there are several them I have noticed. For instance, a guy who sells a package on RG is one. I will go into details if you would like…

  • gvn2fly1421

    @Felixxberg said...

    I must agree with bhdevault here. I’d rather enter a contest where everyone has the same lineup than going against all different lineups. That way, I only have to beat one lineup to win.

    Having the same lineup 450 times in a 150 max contest doesn’t give them any advantage. In fact, I even see it as a disadvantage. Having 450 different lineups in a 150 max contest would definitely give them an advantage as they would cover more possibilities than they should be able to.

    We would all rather enter a contest where everyone has the same lineup as opposed to them all being unique. My thing is, how are the two different? If two groups of guys get together to discuss lineups and group A goes with everyone using the same lineup while group B goes with everyone using unique lineups, please tell me the difference? I absolutely understand that users who use the same lineup are easier to beat and all that, in theory what is the difference in the two examples? RG’s wants to tell me that there is nothing wrong with cash lineups while there is an issue in GPP. To me, there is no difference.

  • Pandamonious

    • Moderator

    • 2019 Blogger of the Month

    The rules are right here…https://www.draftkings.com/lp/community-guidelines

    It’s very simple, in my mind. Again, 2 perfectly legal examples…

    Example A: Having a group chat with other friends who play on DraftKings to discuss players that you think will be great plays in that day’s contests.
    Example B: You work closely with a friend on building the perfect lineup together.

    Now, on the other side, illegal examples…

    Example A: You and 2 of your friends coordinate the makeup of the lineups you build AND coordinate which contests you enter using them.
    Example B: You and a group of friends collaborate in NFL contests to each draft different QBs and WRs, to guarantee you aren’t competing as directly with each other.

    How do you not see the difference?

    I think the issues ( at least in cash ) became when it’s more than just 2 friends. It becomes huge trains with the same line up. The other issues would be in tiny contests and running into multiple people with the same line up. If you enter a 3 man winner take all for example, and 2 guys are workings together and have the same line up in it or really any other small field cash game with the idea of creating a monopoly on the contest. And they do that in every similar contest. That’s an issue, I believe.

    If my buddy and I create what we feel is the perfect line up together, but then enter it in different places and different buy-in levels it’s not an issue for anyone.

    Nobody here is going to defend anyone doing anything illegal on any DFS site. That’s ridiculous.

    There’s a huge difference between one line up and multiple line ups. Consider the cash train concept the same as single entry GPP.

    Doing mass entry is different so it’s obviously treated different. If I have my own built from the ground up optimizer that I use to spit out 300 line ups for me, and I enter the top 150 then email a CSV of the other 150 to a buddy and they enter those 150 line ups that’s obviously illegal. No one would defend that. Same with the you take player A and I’ll take player B example you use. That falls under “Example A: You and 2 of your friends coordinate the makeup of the lineups you build AND coordinate which contests you enter using them.” How do you not see the difference between that and “Example A: Having a group chat with other friends who play on DraftKings to discuss players that you think will be great plays in that day’s contests.” The latter we do here everyday in these forums when people discuss the slate together in the PGA, MLB, NFL forums and so on. No one though is going hey, you take Cole and I’ll take Max and we’ll split the winnings. That’s the difference.

  • Felixxberg

    • 2019 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    • 2019 DraftKings FHWC Finalist

    @gvn2fly1421 said...

    If two groups of guys get together to discuss lineups and group A goes with everyone using the same lineup while group B goes with everyone using unique lineups, please tell me the difference?

    I don’t know what the exact rule is, but here’s my point:

    If two people discuss together and make 75 different lineups each, then they enter them all in a 150 entry max contest and split the results, maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think it would circumvent the rule. Entering 150 lineups is permitted anyway. It’s the same as if they played them all on one account and split the results.

    But yes, in theory, it would be the same with a same lineup. People should be allowed to enter it together as long as they don’t enter more than 150 lineups together. Entering more than that kind of circumvents the rule, but I’m not against it because I think it’s a disadvantage for them.

  • bigez952

    Not sure why your jumping on bhdeualt as he is basically saying that building lineups with a group of people isn’t against the rules regardless if you like it or not. If you don’t agree with the community guidelines your issue should be taken up with Draftkings and not Rotogrinders.

  • klubba575

    Have to agree with bhdevault as well. Chatting with a buddy to build a lineup you like that you both play together is allowed. Chatting with a buddy to create hundreds of completely unique lineups to circumvent the max lineups for that contest is not allowed. There is a huge difference between those two scenarios regardless of cash or gpp.

  • Pandamonious

    • Moderator

    • 2019 Blogger of the Month

    @Felixxberg said...

    I don’t know what the exact rule is, but here’s my point:

    If two people discuss together and make 75 different lineups each, then they enter them all in a 150 entry max contest and split the results, maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think it would circumvent the rule. Entering 150 lineups is permitted anyway. It’s the same as if they played them all on one account and split the results.

    But yes, in theory, it would be the same with a same lineup. People should be allowed to enter it together as long as they don’t enter more than 150 lineups together. Entering more than that kind of circumvents the rule, but I’m not against it because I think it’s a disadvantage for them.

    Example B: You and a group of friends collaborate in NFL contests to each draft different QBs and WRs, to guarantee you aren’t competing as directly with each other.

    That example is illegal.

    So it all depends on how you do it. Even if only doing 75 each, it can still be illegal. So if you and I discussed an NHL slate and what lines we liked and goalies we thought could do well then went off and made line ups separately it’d be fine.

    If Instead we decided we liked the top 2 lines on Carolina, TB, PIT, DET, and NYR, line 1 for the Hawks and the value on line 2 for the Canadians, we liked all these defensemen and these 10 goalies, then we coordinated our line ups together so neither of us ended up with the same combo, so we could hit as many of the combinations of those lines with our D-men and goalies possible for the entry limits and or our bankrolls, that would then cross into illegal territory as I understand it.

  • gvn2fly1421

    @klubba575 said...

    Have to agree with bhdevault as well. Chatting with a buddy to build a lineup you like that you both play together is allowed. Chatting with a buddy to create hundreds of completely unique lineups to circumvent the max lineups for that contest is not allowed. There is a huge difference between those two scenarios regardless of cash or gpp.

    All, thanks for the responses. And you are right, I should not have jumped on devault, for that I apologize.

    Essentially, the group collectively agrees it is ok to collude, however it is not ok to collude. And that is the point I am trying to make, the rules are so vague and hard to enforce, they are essentially not enforced.

    What if my buddy and I enter a 150 max GPP with a single lineup. I agree to play a certain set of players and he agrees to play a certain set of players. We are in a 150 max, however we just have the one lineup, is that an issue?

    And anyone who wants to answer, is what the chipotle brothers do against the rules?

  • Pandamonious

    • Moderator

    • 2019 Blogger of the Month

    @gvn2fly1421 said...

    All, thanks for the responses. And you are right, I should not have jumped on devault, for that I apologize.

    Essentially, the group collectively agrees it is ok to collude, however it is not ok to collude. And that is the point I am trying to make, the rules are so vague and hard to enforce, they are essentially not enforced.

    What if my buddy and I enter a 150 max GPP with a single lineup. I agree to play a certain set of players and he agrees to play a certain set of players. We are in a 150 max, however we just have the one lineup, is that an issue?

    And anyone who wants to answer, is what the chipotle brothers do against the rules?

    No one is saying colluding is OK. I’m not sure if you know what colluding is. Colluding is not discussing, brainstorming, or breaking down a slate with a friend.

    Collude: to work together secretly especially in order to do something illegal or dishonest : CONSPIRE, PLOT

    What you describe would fit under: “Team-building complementary lineups which serve to work together AND executing a strategy that may create any unfair advantage over individual play.” That is illegal. So if I could on a slate randomly find you and a friend of yours in a GPP and you two never play the same guys and so on, I could report you for collusion to DK. Then though DK would have to somehow find out that the two of your are friends and have been doing this together with the intention of never playing the same guys and proof of discussion about it and so on. Nearly impossible.

    IF, the “chipotle brothers” are:

    Entering the maximum number of entries in a contest, type of contest, or event, and having a 3rd party, regardless of their relationship, put in additional entries for you.

    OR

    Team-building complementary lineups which serve to work together AND executing a strategy that may create any unfair advantage over individual play.

    Then yes, it’s illegal. Again, though it’d have to be proven that they’re doing it, which is easier said than done. That’s the problem with collusion. You’re innocent until proven guilty, and proving people are colluding is not an easy task.

  • gvn2fly1421

    Panda, thanks for the time and the responses!

  • Felixxberg

    • 2019 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    • 2019 DraftKings FHWC Finalist

    @Pandamonious said...

    If Instead we decided we liked the top 2 lines on Carolina, TB, PIT, DET, and NYR, line 1 for the Hawks and the value on line 2 for the Canadians, we liked all these defensemen and these 10 goalies, then we coordinated our line ups together so neither of us ended up with the same combo, so we could hit as many of the combinations of those lines with our D-men and goalies possible for the entry limits and or our bankrolls, that would then cross into illegal territory as I understand it.

    That’s where it’s vague. I wouldn’t do it because I’m not sure if it’s against the rules, and I don’t want to be banned. If I ever did it, I would enter them all on my account and just split afterwards. I have had friends buying stakes from me on a Saturday, for example, just because we thought it would be nice to have our night out paid if I hit a big prize. I made my own lineups and they trusted me, but I could have made them with them and I don’t know if it would be against the rules. DK would never know anyway, so that’s just a moot point.

  • casper

    Dk doesn’t care were your line up came from and no rules are enforced.DK only cares about volume and rake.

  • mambaland

    you can have the hedge fund group all running same lineup so they either win the board or lose it…not matter who you play you play vs that lineup…old condia strategy…i had 4 guys in a 10 team 50-50 with same team….i also had a friend who got a text message with lineup sent to the group of about 25 players… DFS is not your yearly work or fun league..its big money as guys play up to 25k a weekend or a night even. If you enter the arena understand there are no rules as its about who can make the money and since about 6percent or less profit over time your chances are slim.

  • tomac

    If rules are not enforced, there are no rules.

  • SkateFiend

    Can there ever be randomized 10-12 player snake draft cash games? That will effectively (or mostly) prevent duplicate lineups and even collusion.

    It might not be feasible for some slates and lineups might have to use generic positions (like G,F,Util for NBA and IF,OF and UTIL for MLB) but if implemented correctly I think cash games will be worthwhile again.

  • jimmyquinella

    • Blogger of the Month

    One thing is certain in DFS.

    This silly topic will come up about every 3 months.

  • bozzburg

    @Pandamonious said...

    The rules are right here…https://www.draftkings.com/lp/community-guidelines

    It’s very simple, in my mind. Again, 2 perfectly legal examples…

    Example A: Having a group chat with other friends who play on DraftKings to discuss players that you think will be great plays in that day’s contests.
    Example B: You work closely with a friend on building the perfect lineup together.

    Now, on the other side, illegal examples…

    Example A: You and 2 of your friends coordinate the makeup of the lineups you build AND coordinate which contests you enter using them.
    Example B: You and a group of friends collaborate in NFL contests to each draft different QBs and WRs, to guarantee you aren’t competing as directly with each other.

    How do you not see the difference?

    I think the issues ( at least in cash ) became when it’s more than just 2 friends. It becomes huge trains with the same line up. The other issues would be in tiny contests and running into multiple people with the same line up. If you enter a 3 man winner take all for example, and 2 guys are workings together and have the same line up in it or really any other small field cash game with the idea of creating a monopoly on the contest. And they do that in every similar contest. That’s an issue, I believe.

    If my buddy and I create what we feel is the perfect line up together, but then enter it in different places and different buy-in levels it’s not an issue for anyone.

    Nobody here is going to defend anyone doing anything illegal on any DFS site. That’s ridiculous.

    There’s a huge difference between one line up and multiple line ups. Consider the cash train concept the same as single entry GPP.

    Doing mass entry is different so it’s obviously treated different. If I have my own built from the ground up optimizer that I use to spit out 300 line ups for me, and I enter the top 150 then email a CSV of the other 150 to a buddy and they enter those 150 line ups that’s obviously illegal. No one would defend that. Same with the you take player A and I’ll take player B example you use. That falls under “Example A: You and 2 of your friends coordinate the makeup of the lineups you build AND coordinate which contests you enter using them.” How do you not see the difference between that and “Example A: Having a group chat with other friends who play on DraftKings to discuss players that you think will be great plays in that day’s contests.” The latter we do here everyday in these forums when people discuss the slate together in the PGA, MLB, NFL forums and so on. No one though is going hey, you take Cole and I’ll take Max and we’ll split the winnings. That’s the difference.

    Honestly, I see this ALL THE TIME from the same group of people ALL THE TIME. It’s a syndicate who circumvent the max entries. I can guarantee they all pool the money, optimize LUs, and then split the proceeds. They all share the same core of players. Not only do they do this in DK and FD, they have infiltrated every DFS platform available and play on almost every sport.I know who they are and you all probably do as well. Is there a way to prove it CERTAIN, probably not. Are we smart enough to know better, ABSOLUTELY!

  • DFSx42

    just want to bump to say that it’s absurd for collusion to be allowed in cash games but against the rules in gpp

  • RudyRuder

    It is 100% completely wrong

    The fact a mod or whatever he is says it should be allowed, doesnt make it so

    Its just that fantasy sites have no way of actually policing it, thats why its allowed

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    @RudyRuder said...

    The fact a mod or whatever he is says it should be allowed, doesnt make it so

    If you read my first post again, I give a link to the actual Draftkings guidelines. You may want to read those clearly before blaming me for what is and isn’t allowed.

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