INDUSTRY FORUM

Comments

  • CantCatchABreak99

    There are a number of lineup sellers out there that DraftKings knows about. In Single Entry Double Ups and Single Entry Tourneys, lineup sellers artificially inflate the cash lines. Selling lineups violates DraftKings terms of service. I’ve brought this to their attention on numerous occasions. They have assured me that something is being done about it, but it’s been nearly a year and they continue to do nothing. (I have gone beyond working with customer support and have exchanged emails with CEO Jason Robins, yet still nothing has been done.) I would hope that some media attention on this issue would force DraftKings to take action. Curious if anyone out there has any ideas on how to go about it. In the 10/22/2018 Single Entry $25 Double Up there were more than 100 lineups IN THE MONEY that were identical. The players purchasing these lineups are doing nothing but inflating the cash lines of the cash games and single entry tourneys. When one person finishes ahead of me that’s one thing, but when that same person sells his lineup to more than 100 people then it artificially inflates the cash line. People are losing money because of this issue and it needs to stop.

  • BobbyTheBrain

    Problem is a lot of the media have big money invested in dfs.

  • BobbyTheBrain

    Only solution is somebody opens up a dfs site that gives the casual player what they want and doesn’t cater to the sharks. This is a classic case of the rich getting richer and one hand washing the other. DFS more corrupt than the NCAA

  • Morley

    Hey guys, I just want to chime in.

    As someone that scrapes and processes my own data and then has my optimizer, I too am more and more frequently running into lineup trains of my own lineup.

    1. Sometimes it’s just a mathematically obvious play and different computer models will create the same lineup.

    2. Unless they are doing it purposefully with goals of colluding, then I could imagine it’ll hurt them more than it helps.

    For example, 2 weeks ago I had a lineup finish top 5 in a big gpp only to be split about 40 ways. Last week I “cashed” in 100 man 50/50 but barely profited because like 1/3 the field had my lineup.

    I imagine if carefully planned and organized they could really exploit the system but don’t see how. Yes it sucks to be under the train in a cash game or finish deep in a gpp but under a train but it also sucks for people on the train themselves.

    Can someone please explain how a group of 50 people all sharing the same lineup can use that to game the system? It seems like they are screwing themselves. I personally have started tweaking my system for a slightly less optimal (but let’s be frank the difference between your top and 2nd best lineup is pretty nil) to try avoiding these trains that appear to be using similar methodology.

  • mambaland

    Let me pose a question or 2 BUT keep in mind i have never used or bought a lineup… BUT…….IF the purpose of DFS is to win money…why would paying for help be different from paying for stock advice or real estate advice? It is the goal to win money by any way you can is it not?

    Now is that any worse than 20 people in their own google group making a lineup to go with for the night? My thought is why does it matter where they lineup came from? You still have to beat it right?

    You can also google the touts win/loss numbers or get them on twitter…amazingly they are not good and lose a ton

    The good thing is most lineup sellers or optimizer LU are not that good.

  • srcripps

    • Ranked #82

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • x2

      Blogger of the Month

    @mambaland said...

    Let me pose a question or 2 BUT keep in mind i have never used or bought a lineup… BUT…….IF the purpose of DFS is to win money…why would paying for help be different from paying for stock advice or real estate advice? It is the goal to win money by any way you can is it not?

    Now is that any worse than 20 people in their own google group making a lineup to go with for the night? My thought is why does it matter where they lineup came from? You still have to beat it right?

    You can also google the touts win/loss numbers or get them on twitter…amazingly they are not good and lose a ton

    The good thing is most lineup sellers or optimizer LU are not that good.

    This is bang on in my opinion mambaland. The ones getting “rich” off of lineup sellers is the lineup seller himself/herself. It just reminds me of the online poker craze. I don’t blame the lineup seller for selling their advice/lineups. We’ve all been there following the train, being behind or in front of the train.We just have to work that much harder. If DFS was quick and easy, the industry itself would’ve died a quick death already.

  • mambaland

    @Morley said...

    Can someone please explain how a group of 50 people all sharing the same lineup can use that to game the system? It seems like they are screwing themselves. I personally have started tweaking my system for a slightly less optimal (but let’s be frank the difference between your top and 2nd best lineup is pretty nil) to try avoiding these trains that appear to be using similar methodology

    i still want to know how they enter in the same order in each game

  • toasty99

    Lineup selling isn’t a good thing but does it really matter? If everyone else uses the same lineup that helps you…. All you have to do is beat that one lineup.

  • CantCatchABreak99

    @toasty99 said...

    Lineup selling isn’t a good thing but does it really matter? If everyone else uses the same lineup that helps you…. All you have to do is beat that one lineup.

    This is true. One of the lineup sellers; however, has been banned from playing on both FD & DK. Therefore, he sells lineups to make his money. I’ll give him credit, his lineups cash on nearly a daily basis. There are times that his purchasers lose, but most weeks they come out ahead. If you are rarely better than that guy selling the lineups then you are going to almost alwaysy be behind his train. And, I’ve seen that train range from 50 to more than 100. It’s happened that I’ve been in “in the money” only to have a train of 100 or so pass me by at the last minute. DraftKings and FD both state that purchasing lineups violates their terms of use. The problem is this: If each and every one of these users were creating their own lineups, then there would be many that would still win, but there would be many more that would lose and the cash lines on cash games would not be artificially inflated.

  • CantCatchABreak99

    @Morley said...

    Hey guys, I just want to chime in.

    As someone that scrapes and processes my own data and then has my optimizer, I too am more and more frequently running into lineup trains of my own lineup.

    1. Sometimes it’s just a mathematically obvious play and different computer models will create the same lineup.

    2. Unless they are doing it purposefully with goals of colluding, then I could imagine it’ll hurt them more than it helps.

    For example, 2 weeks ago I had a lineup finish top 5 in a big gpp only to be split about 40 ways. Last week I “cashed” in 100 man 50/50 but barely profited because like 1/3 the field had my lineup.

    I imagine if carefully planned and organized they could really exploit the system but don’t see how. Yes it sucks to be under the train in a cash game or finish deep in a gpp but under a train but it also sucks for people on the train themselves.

    Can someone please explain how a group of 50 people all sharing the same lineup can use that to game the system? It seems like they are screwing themselves. I personally have started tweaking my system for a slightly less optimal (but let’s be frank the difference between your top and 2nd best lineup is pretty nil) to try avoiding these trains that appear to be using similar methodology.

    When you are playing the single entry cash games entering the same lineup for these guys isn’t an issue. In GPPs, yeah, that wouldn’t make sense, but in Double Ups it’s not a problem for them. Everyone is making the same amount if they finish in the money anyway.

  • clrockny24

    Pro tip: Anytime a provider has fire emojis in their tweet, or use words like “you’re not going to want to miss this lineup,” that’s usually a good indication that the lineup stinks. I’ve gotten three lineups from the same provider recently (all with fire emojis,) all of which were duds. The NBA one last night never even came close to cashing. I have no problem with fire emojis after the fact, but saying it beforehand is kind of a red flag in my opinion.

  • Morley

    It really sucks to create a 3 man winner take all and then have one of the guys you know uses same methodology join it. Likewise, if you’re in a 10 man 50/50 then swapping out a random opponent for an identical lineup dramatically shifts your EV downward, it’s only a non issue in large fields where likelihood of being around the line much lower

  • mambaland

    they also know about collusion so whats your point

  • CantCatchABreak99

    I was contacted by Steven McLoughlin of DraftKings today and given an explanation as to how they go about investigating these issues and determining the appropriate action to take. It’s obvious that DraftKings is concerned about this issue, but in their defense, determining who is and who is not selling lineups vs. just giving them away is rather difficult. In addition, DraftKings probably is not going to ban anyone for using a purchased lineup. Let’s face it, they are in the business to make money and turning people away isn’t in their best interests. I have been a “squeaky wheel” on this issue for nearly a year. I’ve trolled DraftKings on Twitter, sent emails to Jason Robins and others at DraftKings alerting them of this issue and have had two telephone conversations at the director level with them. I no longer believe they simply turn a blind eye to this problem, but I do not believe there is any real solution on the horizon. If you are in a DraftKings GPP or DoubleUp tournament and you see what you suspect is someone using a purchased lineup then report the offender using the Report Abuse button the DraftKings fairplay page (https://www.draftkings.com/lp/fairplay-2018) There’s not a whole lot that can be done about this issue, but we can at least continue to report those suspected of using purchased lineups.

  • mambaland

    i would never do it but its just like stock advice or racing tips…its about winning money anyway you can…i was in a google group with a dozen players who all were ranked on RG pretty high and they would all settle on one lineup for the night and cover the board with them…i did it for a while but just wanted to use my own teams and i figure if can beat that one lineup i move way up in the standings….hate seeing 300 identical lineups in double ups

  • DraftKings_CM

    • DraftKings Representative

    I no longer believe they simply turn a blind eye to this problem, but I do not believe there is any real solution on the horizon. If you are in a DraftKingsGPP or DoubleUp tournament and you see what you suspect is someone using a purchased lineup then report the offender using the Report Abuse button the DraftKings fairplay page (https://www.draftkings.com/lp/fairplay-2018) There’s not a whole lot that can be done about this issue, but we can at least continue to report those suspected of using purchased lineups.

    It is true that our team member Liam and I had a conversation with CantCatchABreak99 last week to discuss the issues he brought up in this thread. We explained that we cannot discuss the investigative process or the corrective actions that we have taken, but we did explain some of the complexities that we face. For example, we discussed a lineup seller who promotes his company on twitter by using faked screen shots. When we investigated the lineups and the screen names he posted they may not have been associated with any shared lineups. A person or company that breaks our Community Guidelines while selling lineups might be a con artist, they are selling a fake bill of goods to players who don’t realize they are being conned by the lineup seller. We also discussed a situation where we already banned the seller, although it wouldn’t appear that way because he is continuing to sell lineups for competitor’s sites that don’t have the same set of player protection guidelines that we have.

    Let’s face it, they are in the business to make money and turning people away isn’t in their best interests.

    To clarify, we will take corrective action against people who are abusing the policies found within the DraftKings Community Guidelines – but we need substantive evidence that cannot be disputed. In fact we took corrective action just this past week the day before we spoke with CantCatchABreak99 after an investigation was completed – we wanted him to know that he helped.

    - DraftKings Community Team

  • tjimsons2

    How is it any different than paying this site here for lineups or any other of countless sites for their optimal daily lineups? They all offer optimal lineups for a price.

  • mambaland

    i heard a guy in discord who bought a lineup and it sucked so they gave him a month free…2x in a month it cashed in a 50/50…if anyone wants the sellers info LMK and you too can lose 28 of 30 days

    It the sharks who use the same lineup in every dollar amount there is who i struggle with…then suddenly new guys appear with the same identical lineup to the sharks so maybe its an optimal

  • DraftKings_CM

    • DraftKings Representative

    How is it any different than paying this site here for lineups or any other of countless sites for their optimal daily lineups? They all offer optimal lineups for a price.

    Using an optimizer differs from using pre-built lineups acquired from a 3rd party as per the DraftKings Community Guidelines (link:):

    ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIORS: Using projections, written or video advice, or lineup construction tools from 3rd party fantasy sports websites to help build your lineups.
    UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIORS: Any use of pre-built lineups acquired from 3rd party websites or engaging in the distribution of such lineups.

    In addition, in our Terms of Use (link:) it is stated:

    • Lineup tools must require multiple, substantive, independent decisions by the users in order to generate a lineup
    • Providers must ensure that their customers are not commonly generating the same or substantively similar lineups as an output of the tools
      Our policies are clearly defined to create distinctions between the use of prebuilt “shared” lineups, and the use of lineup optimizers that require multiple, substantive, independent decisions by the user.

    - DraftKings Community Team

  • jayzee666

    @mambaland said...

    i heard a guy in discord who bought a lineup and it sucked so they gave him a month free…2x in a month it cashed in a 50/50…if anyone wants the sellers info LMK and you too can lose 28 of 30 days

    It the sharks who use the same lineup in every dollar amount there is who i struggle with…then suddenly new guys appear with the same identical lineup to the sharks so maybe its an optimal

    I lose 30 out of 30, so that is an improvement.
    I actually used a seller for 7 days while he was on a hot streak. He no longer is on a hot streak and kicked me out!!

  • scott33

    @jayzee666 said...

    I lose 30 out of 30, so that is an improvement.
    I actually used a seller for 7 days while he was on a hot streak. He no longer is on a hot streak and kicked me out!!

    Speaking of buying lineups, I would pay you everyday to know who you’re playing JZ. That way I know who not to play lol.

  • jayzee666

    @scott33 said...

    Speaking of buying lineups, I would pay you everyday to know who you’re playing JZ. That way I know who not to play lol.

    So true! I poison any and all sports! It is impressive!

  • mambaland

    @DraftKings_CM said...

    How is it any different than paying this site here for lineups or any other of countless sites for their optimal daily lineups? They all offer optimal lineups for a price.

    Using an optimizer differs from using pre-built lineups acquired from a 3rd party as per the DraftKings Community Guidelines (link:):

    ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIORS: Using projections, written or video advice, or lineup construction tools from 3rd party fantasy sports websites to help build your lineups.
    UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIORS: Any use of pre-built lineups acquired from 3rd party websites or engaging in the distribution of such lineups.

    In addition, in our Terms of Use (link:) it is stated:

    • Lineup tools must require multiple, substantive, independent decisions by the users in order to generate a lineup
    • Providers must ensure that their customers are not commonly generating the same or substantively similar lineups as an output of the tools
      Our policies are clearly defined to create distinctions between the use of prebuilt “shared” lineups, and the use of lineup optimizers that require multiple, substantive, independent decisions by the user.

    - DraftKings Community Team

    that is odd as you can google draftkings lineups and see where many people in the INDUSTRY..cbssports..roto sites etc all post their weekly lineups..those are pre made but bring money into site so i guess that is different

  • edro990

    The lineup sellers are here to stay and they include ALL content providers, whether it be actual lineups or partials leaving one or 2 spots empty to finish in their optimizer. Just look at where all the big DFS winners end up, PROVIDING CONTENT. It’s where the industry has ended up and it has deprived the guy who puts in the time to do research and actually follow the sport of any edge there may have once been. I have no issue with that as things evolve and ultimately go in the direction the masses allow it to. I never thought I would look back at anything from 3 years ago and think those were the good old days, LOL. Peace out folks……………

  • DraftKings_CM

    • DraftKings Representative

    The lineup sellers are here to stay and they include ALL content providers, whether it be actual lineups or partials leaving one or 2 spots empty to finish in their optimizer. Just look at where all the big DFS winners end up, PROVIDING CONTENT. It’s where the industry has ended up and it has deprived the guy who puts in the time to do research and actually follow the sport of any edge there may have once been. I have no issue with that as things evolve and ultimately go in the direction the masses allow it to. I never thought I would look back at anything from 3 years ago and think those were the good old days, LOL. Peace out folks……………

    If you look closer, there is more to this than what you see at first glance. The media companies you describe do not use our player pricing when sharing their complete lineup suggestions, so the lineups they share may not even fit. Many content providers offer partial lineup suggestions, some offer core suggestions with pivots. We encourage providers to share their suggestions so long as they abide by our Terms of Service, the Fair Play Commitment, and the Community Guidelines.

    - DraftKings Community Team

  • bigez952

    @DraftKings_CM said...

    The lineup sellers are here to stay and they include ALL content providers, whether it be actual lineups or partials leaving one or 2 spots empty to finish in their optimizer. Just look at where all the big DFS winners end up, PROVIDING CONTENT. It’s where the industry has ended up and it has deprived the guy who puts in the time to do research and actually follow the sport of any edge there may have once been. I have no issue with that as things evolve and ultimately go in the direction the masses allow it to. I never thought I would look back at anything from 3 years ago and think those were the good old days, LOL. Peace out folks……………

    If you look closer, there is more to this than what you see at first glance. The media companies you describe do not use our player pricing when sharing their complete lineup suggestions, so the lineups they share may not even fit. Many content providers offer partial lineup suggestions, some offer core suggestions with pivots. We encourage providers to share their suggestions so long as they abide by our Terms of Service, the Fair Play Commitment, and the Community Guidelines.

    - DraftKings Community Team

    I think the issue is that it is super easy to push out lineups from content providers and still comply with the terms of service for fair play. You don’t have to give out any lineups but if you give 100 people that same projections and an optimizer your going to have a high % of people that put no thought into anything and just run the optimal. Sure you supposed to make 2 decisions on your own but it is too easy to have that decision being I want a minimum of 1% exposure to player A and B and run 100 lineups. That will always give you a straight optimal lineup from that projection model.

    I played MLB every single day this season using an optimizer and publicly available projection source. I thought I had an edge until I started to track the straight optimal lineup every night and saw how it was commonly part of a 25-75 person lineup train nightly. So I will always believe that lineup trains are not problems with lineup sellers as they are with legal projection models and optimizers. For that reason the issue will never go away which is disheartening as it does ruin the experience of cash games when you know 10-15% of the field will all have the same lineup. The daily double up grind nowadays is knowing what the lineup train will be playing and making a 1 v 1 or 2 v 2 pivot and hoping you can get a head of it at a 50%+ rate which is hard to do when the projection models are so good.

    As I write all of this I really don’t know what the solution is but I do know that I am probably making the tough decision to retire from my favorite sport of MLB and stick to just playing PGA & NFL since contest sizes are large enough for those sports so you don’t have the daily issue of 1 lineup eating 10%+ of the contest.

  • X Unread Thread
  • X Thread with New Replies*
  • *Jumps to your first unread reply

Use our links to sign up and deposit on sites listed in this thread to get these bonuses:

  • FanDuel

    Get 1-month of RotoGrinders Premium for FREE (a ~$40value) by signing up through one of our links!

    Learn More
  • DraftKings

    Sign up for DraftKings using a RotoGrinders link & receive our DraftKings Premium content FREE for 1 month. That’s a ~$40 value! No DraftKings promo code necessary!

    Learn More
  • FantasyDraft

    FantasyDraft strives to put players first, with a mission to “provide a fun and fair experience for all.” To this end, the site has a well-built, easy-to-use interface and a the first of its kind in offering “Rake-Free” fantasy contests.

    Learn More

Subforum Index

RotoGrinders.com is the home of the daily fantasy sports community. Our content, rankings, member blogs, promotions and forum discussion all cater to the players that like to create a new fantasy team every day of the week. Our goal is to help all of our members make more money playing daily fantasy sports!

Bet with your head, not over it!
Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-Gambler