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  • superstars92

    Kunu88/aboveandbeyond/MakeItRain84/Daut44/aejones (5 users) all have EXACT same lineup (same order) in my 1k double up (with only 55 entries)

    I just find this funny because I used to read about some other people posting how Kunu88/MakeItRain84/Daut44/etc. collude, and these users (check their post history) would post like “why would we collude, it’s negative EV to collude when there are so few people in a double up, blah, blah, blah,” or something like “yea we just share some projections, but we would never share the same lineup.” It’s actually funny because your EV doesn’t actually get hurt if you have identical lineups as everyone else (it’s still the same EV), and I love how they tried to use this flawed math argument to try and “convince” people they don’t actually collude or have any incentive to collude.

    The 1k double up only has 55 users, and these 5 have the exact same lineup (no other team is duplicated except this team). 55 is a small number of people too. It’s obvious they worked together because not only do they have the exact same lineup, but all players are in the same order.

    Personally, I don’t actually care because it doesn’t affect my EV either (I either beat all 5 or lose to all 5), but I do care that these people want to try and convince people that they don’t actually work together when they obviously do (which might be a violation in itself? – not positive on the exact rule, but it doesn’t sound ethical). For me, the lying and trying to give some BS arguments is worse than actually having the same lineup.

    Seeing this, I have way more respect for users like SaahilSud, youdacao, underjones, rayofhope, BirdWings, CSURAM88, Notorious, etc. (who ever else is in the same double up) because at least they are coming up with things on their own, and even if they do work with others, at least they aren’t so blatantly obvious and then try to come up with some BS excuse like they don’t actually collude.

  • stlcardinals84

    Leading RG Analyst

    • 2018 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2018 DraftKings FBBWC Finalist

    Not a fan of this activity. I really wish the sites would crack down on this harder than they do. A lengthy period of this is pretty substantial evidence, and it’s worse when they are taking up 11% of the entries in a contest.

    How hard is it to make your own freaking lineups?

  • bshan87

    .

  • DSofM

    • 116

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    • Ranked #23

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • 2020 NASCAR Live Finalist

    • Blogger of the Month

    @bshan87 said...

    superstars…hate to break the news to you…but several of those pros you said also collude and share lineups :( Sucks :/

    he acknowledged that, and said while they may do it at least they dont do it so shamelessly or publicly

  • Messiah717

    This is still a major problem in DFS and is something these companies are going to have to address. The player pools are simply going to decrease over time if this is left unchecked.

  • superstars92

    I know there have been posts about this before, but I really just wanted to make this one because these are the same users who claimed in their post history here on Rotogrinders that they would never do something like share the exact lineup (which they did today…) or argue things like isn’t it actually negative EV to have the same lineup in small person fields.

    Like I said, for me, it isn’t about me winning or losing to these people with the same lineup. I don’t have an issue with that. If I can be better then them, then I can beat 5 lineups at once, and if I can’t, then I’ll just lose to all 5. I’ll just have more variance on what place I get on small size fields when people have the same lineup.

    For me, I think of it like this. I am not a full time player (and I will never be). I have a job that I work from like 8-6 (maybe even later), so sometimes, I don’t even have the time to submit like NBA every night. Then I have to come up with all the lineups basically on my own, and I don’t really have time throughout the day to prepare (my job isn’t some chill job either where I can just do research at work). I am lucky if I can submit like 30 lineups into a GPP a night because I sometimes just run out of time editing lineups before lineup locks; sometimes the large GPP field I play in is already filled when I get home (and I don’t always remember to reserve the entry the previous night). So it isn’t easy for me to play DFS. Then I see these guys who I am sure are all pros (so they play full time). They basically can just ride off each other and not do any work, even though they should be free for most of the day focusing on DFS. I am sure I am not alone, as most of the players who play DFS are not full-time players. We already have a disadvantage, and now, we have to compete against like multiple users who openly collude. That just doesn’t feel right that I have to be playing against these people, regardless if I win or lose.

    It just doesn’t feel right when you have so many people working together and then submitting the EXACT same lineup. Maybe it isn’t a direct violation of rules, but it doesn’t feel ethically right. Furthermore, these users then try to defend themselves in their posts on here (you can check some of their post history) by claiming they don’t actually work together on same lineups, don’t actually collude, etc., when it is quite obvious they do. I hate that part because if you are going to collude and it isn’t actually illegal to do so, at least man up about it.

    I don’t know what websites can do about it, but it just doesn’t feel right to me. I agree that some of the others names I posted might do similar things, but the group I mentioned is so obvious about it. Also, I am sure a lot of top people (like SaahilSud, youdacao, pianoclub, underjones, or like stlcardinals84 above) don’t actually do this. I’ve never seen any duplicate lineups with other users (or even similar lineups) with them that are so blatantly obvious.

    That’s just my 2 cents. Again, this isn’t about whether I win or lose. I am actually doing decently well against these type of players (even though I am not full-time), so I am not just complaining because I lost or something. This is just really for the amateur players out there. It’s already not really fair that we have a ton of people colluding, but then these people are openly doing it and making a mockery out of it. I feel like this is pretty ridiculous. I don’t have any respect to people like aejones. I don’t care if he won the FFWC last year or anything; I have way more respect for other pros like don’t openly engage in this type of behavior.

  • scottmsteiner

    These players will always exist. I really don’t know how the sites would regulate it.

    The main issue is that people CAN make a living off DFS but they have to get as much money in play as they can. However, NO ONE has the time to do all the research, so they lean on each other. Someone does NBA, someone does NHL and someone does NFL. Then they all use the same lineups. Sometimes they cash in everything, sometimes they lose in everything, but if they return a positive ROI together, it’s all good.

  • sjs1890

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBC Finalist

    I think its pretty obvious that the integrity of the game has gone out the window with these sites. All they care about at this point is getting as much rake from these high volume players who use the same “projections” or just the same teams in many cases.

  • ironmiket

    I’m really tired of the look the other way attitude while everyone cheats and has a free for all. After next week of football I’m doing a self ban for 5 yrs. I don’t mind losing an honest game of chance/skill. But when the people who are supposed to be refereeing the games to ensure a fair playing field just don’t care then I can no longer just throw my money away.

  • Epicsic

    The sites don’t care anymore. It’s all about making the money. You will always have people like this and it will only get worse.

  • rainbowtroutman

    And that’s why I quit.You summed it up perfectly Epic

  • Messiah717

    @scottmsteiner said...

    These players will always exist. I really don’t know how the sites would regulate it.

    The main issue is that people CAN make a living off DFS but they have to get as much money in play as they can. However, NO ONE has the time to do all the research, so they lean on each other. Someone does NBA, someone does NHL and someone does NFL. Then they all use the same lineups. Sometimes they cash in everything, sometimes they lose in everything, but if they return a positive ROI together, it’s all good.

    I think it certainly could be regulated if the sites had any interest in doing so. If people playing the contests notice what’s going on then certainly the people running the contests would be aware of it as well. It’s could very well be a gray area but you can’t tell me it’s not a form of collusion. So at the end of the day not only are you playing against sharks but you’re also playing against shark corporations.

  • sethayates

    I have a question for you guys. Put yourself in DraftKings’ shoes for a second. What amount of working together would you allow? Many people on this very forum collaborate to build DFS lineups. This site also has a lineup generator.

    I’m part of several different groups that discuss DFS through Twitter DMs, Slack channels, Google chat and some people even DM me on here. Back when CFB existed I was part of a group that discussed CFB. Since that was my weakest sport I almost always played a lineup given to me by one of the other members of the group. In exchange I would send that person a lineup for a different sport if they requested one.

    Many many people send me messages on Twitter asking if I can look at their lineup. Some have even asked me if I can provide a lineup to them. I’ve done that a few times but I mainly ask that they build their own lineup first and then I’ll critique it.

    The question becomes what level of lineup sharing is allowed? The biggest names in the industry get attention when they share lineups. Wouldn’t you do the same thing though if you were really good at this but also had access to others who were equally skilled?

    On top of that, most of the people named in the original post of this thread subscribe to premium tools. Last season I was able to get the optimal lineups given out by various premium tools across the industry. I would check cash games and often find the biggest names simply using the optimal lineup. It’s quite possible that some people accused of sharing actually don’t even know each other. They just subscribe to the same thing.

    So what level of sharing is ok?

    Projections?
    Projections paired with a lineup builder?
    An Optimal Lineup?
    A group of friends that come to a consensus lineup?
    A purchased lineup?
    An article that details it’s best plays? (if you plug in the first option at each position it magically fits)

    Is the issue that these people are sharing lineups or is the issue that these people are too good? This contest where the top 334 spots were taken by just two lineups is a bad look for DFS. https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/34926103?uc=612078479

    That will drive away casual players faster than anything else. What would you do about it though?

  • sjs1890

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBC Finalist

    @sethayates said...

    The question becomes what level of lineup sharing is allowed? The biggest names in the industry get attention when they share lineups. Wouldn’t you do the same thing though if you were really good at this but also had access to others who were equally skilled?

    Lineup sharing, using the same “projections”, collaborating will always be a gray area but I think there’s a very easy solution to it. The 150 entry limit I think is the issue and it has never been necessary and never will be necessary. Looking at gpps the last couple weeks the same sized gpps would have easily filled with a 25 entry limit. That alone would lessen the impact of using scripts, lineup builders, etc. Imagine if gpps were 25 entry limit that would make the game A LOT more fun for the majority and A TON would start max entering all these contests and its a lot more sustainable. But what I keep seeing is that DK keeps having all their rules cater to these high volume players, the most recent example is getting rid of late swap for nba which obviously helps the people entering 150 teams.

  • sethayates

    @sjs1890 said...

    Lineup sharing, using the same “projections”, collaborating will always be a gray area but I think there’s a very easy solution to it. The 150 entry limit I think is the issue and it has never been necessary and never will be necessary. Looking at gpps the last couple weeks the same sized gpps would have easily filled with a 25 entry limit. That alone would lessen the impact of using scripts, lineup builders, etc. Imagine if gpps were 25 entry limit that would make the game A LOT more fun for the majority and A TON would start max entering all these contests and its a lot more sustainable. But what I keep seeing is that DK keeps having all their rules cater to these high volume players, the most recent example is getting rid of late swap for nba which obviously helps the people entering 150 teams.

    I agree with this. The other thing I would like to see is more single-entry 50/50s and double-ups. That would largely fix the cash game ecosystem and push the high volume players up to the levels where they belong.

    Instead of having 10 different double-ups at $5 that allow 1,000 entries total just make one $5 double-up that is 10,000 entries.

    In that scenario a casual player gets a chance to play $5 on a level playing field. Doing it the way the sites do it now you can get $50 of action at $5. Under my system that number is $5. That means you have to move up to the next stake if you want to continue playing $50 nightly.

  • Epicsic

    @sethayates said...

    I have a question for you guys. Put yourself in DraftKings’ shoes for a second. What amount of working together would you allow? Many people on this very forum collaborate to build DFS lineups. This site also has a lineup generator.

    I’m part of several different groups that discuss DFS through Twitter DMs, Slack channels, Google chat and some people even DM me on here. Back when CFB existed I was part of a group that discussed CFB. Since that was my weakest sport I almost always played a lineup given to me by one of the other members of the group. In exchange I would send that person a lineup for a different sport if they requested one.

    Many many people send me messages on Twitter asking if I can look at their lineup. Some have even asked me if I can provide a lineup to them. I’ve done that a few times but I mainly ask that they build their own lineup first and then I’ll critique it.

    The question becomes what level of lineup sharing is allowed? The biggest names in the industry get attention when they share lineups. Wouldn’t you do the same thing though if you were really good at this but also had access to others who were equally skilled?

    On top of that, most of the people named in the original post of this thread subscribe to premium tools. Last season I was able to get the optimal lineups given out by various premium tools across the industry. I would check cash games and often find the biggest names simply using the optimal lineup. It’s quite possible that some people accused of sharing actually don’t even know each other. They just subscribe to the same thing.

    So what level of sharing is ok?

    Projections?
    Projections paired with a lineup builder?
    An Optimal Lineup?
    A group of friends that come to a consensus lineup?
    A purchased lineup?
    An article that details it’s best plays? (if you plug in the first option at each position it magically fits)

    Is the issue that these people are sharing lineups or is the issue that these people are too good? This contest where the top 334 spots were taken by just two lineups is a bad look for DFS. https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/34926103?uc=612078479

    That will drive away casual players faster than anything else. What would you do about it though?

    No level is right. You don’t show your hand at a poker table to your friend beside you because poker” isn’t his thing”. If you weren’t good at CFB and you trade lineups for another to just win money then yea that pathetic. Try not playing the sport gen til you learn it more. Collusion is wrong just plain and simple just like poker yet even tho being so clear in poker everyone seems to find excuses in DFS. Make your own lineups with your own research and that’s how it should be.

  • sjs1890

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBC Finalist

    @sethayates said...

    I agree with this. The other thing I would like to see is more single-entry 50/50s and double-ups. That would largely fix the cash game ecosystem and push the high volume players up to the levels where they belong.

    Instead of having 10 different double-ups at $5 that allow 1,000 entries total just make one $5 double-up that is 10,000 entries.

    In that scenario a casual player gets a chance to play $5 on a level playing field. Doing it the way the sites do it now you can get $50 of action at $5. Under my system that number is $5. That means you have to move up to the next stake if you want to continue playing $50 nightly.

    Yes that would help cash games a lot. I never understood why DK for example doesn’t post a lot more of those single entry double ups the featured ones for nba are pretty much already full 5 hours before lock.

  • baggerly

    @sethayates said...

    I’m part of several different groups that discuss DFS through Twitter DMs, Slack channels, Google chat and some people even DM me on here. Back when CFB existed I was part of a group that discussed CFB. Since that was my weakest sport I almost always played a lineup given to me by one of the other members of the group. In exchange I would send that person a lineup for a different sport if they requested one.

    Giving a lineup to someone to use is against the rules the way they are stated right now (or at least I thought it was). Now how you prove it I’m not sure, but I’m pretty sure I’ve heard of people getting banned for this type of play.

  • TheRyanFlaherty

    To answer sethayates question….

    I wish none of that existed.
    I know they couldn’t possibly legislate that and I’m not saying they should….but from a personal standpoint I wish it was all gone because I’d have a higher ROI.

    I try to avoid all those things you listed. I learned early on that I did substantially worse when I trusted the opinions of others….plus I realized that if I expected to be a consistent winner (in a minority) it didn’t make sense to use the same information that the majority was following.

    Now it is true I do come to this site, but again I try to avoid the types of things you listed.
    I use the forum to primarily vent during games or to discuss theory/macro issues such as this.
    I do use the tools, but I try to limit it to the more objective stat based tools…It’s just more convenient to come here and use them, as long as the starting lineup page which allows me to isolate positions/salaries etc which helps me build my lu.

    Now that’s my personal take and as I said unrealistic…so to answer on a macro level.
    It annoys me when the user isn’t doing any work on their own. I.e. a lineup generator where they are importing nothing. Copying and pasting a lu, or obviously worst of all purchasing a lineup etc.
    It would seem less of an issue if someone reads something like a GrindDown that offers stats/opinions.suggestions and than the individual still has to sort through that and make a lineup. Or if it’s an either/or question to a “pro” to fill that last spot in a lineup to. Even a Generator if it is contingent on selecting a pool of players to use or at least some of the roster, etc. etc.

    Also, i have a bigger problem with this in single entry. especially cash games.
    In those instances these practices completely go against the format of these contests. While it;s still annoying in multi-entry GPP’s. It’s not the same as entering a 100 person 50/50 and seeing 8 users with one purchased lineup and another 12 with another.
    It’s starting to feel like I’m just competing against a handful of sites/pros every night and it’s frustrating, even if I win.

    I really don’t understand when people minimize this issue.
    The rallying cry on this site has always seemed to be “build better lineups” Well here’s people who literally don’t build a lineup…I don’t see how you can support that.
    Not to mention people wonder where the edge has gone. You can complain about rake, but here we see a substantial percentage of losing players turning to alternative means to become a competitive and possibly winning player.

    It’s lame. It sucks, and I thin kit hurts the long term growth of DFS.
    If a new user plays and comes across this type of thing it perpetuates the negative-DFS narrative in the media. And then what happens? It;s likely they leave and/or they become part of the problem looking to purchase lineups themselves.

    I will give DK credit for at least admitting this is an issue, and at least feigning legislation against it. Better than FD, where the practices are rampant.

  • jimfred82

    • Blogger of the Month

    I get it why it happened, but I’ve always thought Multi-entry 50/50’s and double-ups were horse crap. Totally unnecessary and is truly only there to boost the prize pool, but it’s not like you’re going to make any more if you finish 1/10000 or 1/100. I think it’s just lazy on the part of the sites, TBH.

  • jeramy576

    “No level is right. You don’t show your hand at a poker table to your friend beside you because poker” isn’t his thing”. If you weren’t good at CFB and you trade lineups for another to just win money then yea that pathetic. Try not playing the sport gen til you learn it more. Collusion is wrong just plain and simple just like poker yet even tho being so clear in poker everyone seems to find excuses in DFS. Make your own lineups with your own research and that’s how it should be.”

    Absolutely, and the sad part of it is at least a few of these guys are former/current poker pros. But then again high stakes online poker was/is? riddled with collision as well.

  • Unico10

    • 711

      RG Overall Ranking

    @sethayates said...

    Is the issue that these people are sharing lineups or is the issue that these people are too good? This contest where the top 334 spots were taken by just two lineups is a bad look for DFS.

    The issue is that if a contest is published as single entry, but many pros are allowed to openly collude, that the contest is not single entry anymore and you go against trains.

    So. IDGAF about the level of cooperation, but if I enter a 50 people single enrty $50 DU (have not done so in about a year) I expect to compete against 49 different users and lineups.

    No integrity in contests.

    A couple of days ago I placed 6th in a main event Q with 3-max limit. Papagates and Chipotle were 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th…. LOL

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

    • 548

      RG Overall Ranking

    • $1M Prize Winner

    • x4

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @superstars92 said...

    I just find this funny because I used to read about some other people posting how Kunu88/MakeItRain84/Daut44/etc. collude, and these users (check their post history) would post like “why would we collude, it’s negative EV to collude when there are so few people in a double up, blah, blah, blah,” or something like “yea we just share some projections, but we would never share the same lineup.”

    Lots of misinformation in this tread. We need to clarify some things:

    1. I completely understand that you are turned off by seeing players share lineups. It makes for a bad experience for some users and the optics are very bad, leading to many threads like this.
    2. Its not cheating. DraftKings is not looking the other way. Working with a friend to create a lineup in a cash game is allowed.
    3. I don’t think these guys ever said they don’t work together to create a cash lineup. I’m almost positive none of these guys said it is -EV to share a lineup in a 50/50. There was a long thread about how it is -EV to share a lineup in a 3 man, you may be confusing those situations.

  • Priptonite

    • Blogger of the Month

    @Cal said...

    Lots of misinformation in this tread. We need to clarify some things:

    1. I completely understand that you are turned off by seeing players share lineups. It makes for a bad experience for some users and the optics are very bad, leading to many threads like this.
    2. Its not cheating. DraftKings is not looking the other way. Working with a friend to create a lineup in a cash game is allowed.
    3. I don’t think these guys ever said they don’t work together to create a cash lineup. I’m almost positive none of these guys said it is -EV to share a lineup in a 50/50. There was a long thread about how it is -EV to share a lineup in a 3 man, you may be confusing those situations.

    Way to advocate for the players, Cal!

  • kaetorade

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBBC Finalist

    @Unico10 said...

    The issue is that if a contest is published as single entry, but many pros are allowed to openly collude, that the contest is not single entry anymore and you go against trains.

    So. IDGAF about the level of cooperation, but if I enter a 50 people single enrty $50 DU (have not done so in about a year) I expect to compete against 49 different users and lineups.

    No integrity in contests.

    Sites need to be more transparent. I’ve been around the DFS block for a minute, but even I get turned off when I see trains in contests that are advertised as single entry. I can only only imagine how casual players feel. For what it’s worth, it’s up to the sites to set AND enforce rules. I never expect the players to police themselves.

  • tooltime

    @sethayates said...

    Is the issue that these people are sharing lineups or is the issue that these people are too good? This contest where the top 334 spots were taken by just two lineups is a bad look for DFS. https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/34926103?uc=612078479

    .

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