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  • superstars92

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    Kunu88/aboveandbeyond/MakeItRain84/Daut44/aejones (5 users) all have EXACT same lineup (same order) in my 1k double up (with only 55 entries)

    I just find this funny because I used to read about some other people posting how Kunu88/MakeItRain84/Daut44/etc. collude, and these users (check their post history) would post like “why would we collude, it’s negative EV to collude when there are so few people in a double up, blah, blah, blah,” or something like “yea we just share some projections, but we would never share the same lineup.” It’s actually funny because your EV doesn’t actually get hurt if you have identical lineups as everyone else (it’s still the same EV), and I love how they tried to use this flawed math argument to try and “convince” people they don’t actually collude or have any incentive to collude.

    The 1k double up only has 55 users, and these 5 have the exact same lineup (no other team is duplicated except this team). 55 is a small number of people too. It’s obvious they worked together because not only do they have the exact same lineup, but all players are in the same order.

    Personally, I don’t actually care because it doesn’t affect my EV either (I either beat all 5 or lose to all 5), but I do care that these people want to try and convince people that they don’t actually work together when they obviously do (which might be a violation in itself? – not positive on the exact rule, but it doesn’t sound ethical). For me, the lying and trying to give some BS arguments is worse than actually having the same lineup.

    Seeing this, I have way more respect for users like SaahilSud, youdacao, underjones, rayofhope, BirdWings, CSURAM88, Notorious, etc. (who ever else is in the same double up) because at least they are coming up with things on their own, and even if they do work with others, at least they aren’t so blatantly obvious and then try to come up with some BS excuse like they don’t actually collude.

  • awesemo

    • 1

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    • x3

      2018 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @Cal said...

    Lots of misinformation in this tread. We need to clarify some things:

    1. I completely understand that you are turned off by seeing players share lineups. It makes for a bad experience for some users and the optics are very bad, leading to many threads like this.
    2. Its not cheating. DraftKings is not looking the other way. Working with a friend to create a lineup in a cash game is allowed.
    3. I don’t think these guys ever said they don’t work together to create a cash lineup. I’m almost positive none of these guys said it is -EV to share a lineup in a 50/50. There was a long thread about how it is -EV to share a lineup in a 3 man, you may be confusing those situations.

    Part of our strategy to combat the lineup trains should be education. It is absolutely -ev to use the same lineup as other people in a 50/50.

    I’m going to overly simplify the game to demonstrate the concept. 4 person 50/50. Player 1 is a recreational player who will win 30% of the time in a head to head vs the other players. If they all have the same lineup he will cash 30%. If they all have independent lineups he will cash 27%. Essentially, the best strategy for the good players is to minimize the amount of the time all 3 win at the same time in favor of 2/3 cashing more frequently.

    In the online contests this effect still exists but not to the same extent. I still think it’s enough to warrant not having exactly the same lineups.

  • feekdogg

    @db730 said...

    Report it to FanDuel Support

    I play $5 3-man contests on Fanduel. I ended up in a game with both daut44 and hoop2410. Same exact lineup. I screwed up by being the first person to enter the contest. They swooped in. When I emailed support to ask if there was any way to block users from entering small cash games, I was told that it’s actually to my advantage to play 2 players with the same lineup, as I only have to beat one lineup instead of two. Yes, I have the advantage putting together my lineup during my lunch hour against 2 pros working together.

  • dude_abides7

    @poppaspicks said...

    The margins are razor thin and getting thinner everyday….can’t blame the guys that are doing it as they obviously see that the window of opportunity is closing quickly…what blows my mind is, how the sites are just sitting back and watching casual players get ground into dust by this tactic. Add in the rake increases and rampant tournament collusion that has been pervasive ever since the 150 limit was instituted, and it doesn’t take a Platinum Funds CIO to see where this is heading…

    This, this and this! I don’t like these guys’ method of play, but if their goal is to make as much money as possible (which it is) it falls on the sites to stop it…not for the players to have a ‘come to Jesus’ moment. The sites don’t stop it, they don’t try to stop it. Their look the other way posturing could be said to enable it.

    The sites are the issue here, not the players. If the sites were to create and enforce rules (and not vague, unenforceable “guidelines”) then the players would adapt. Right now players are doing what they are allowed to get away with. Could we expect anything less from a bunch of guys brought up in the online Poker age where exploiting loopholes and gray areas was par for the course?

  • krazyju84

    Hmm… interesting. When I was joining tournaments earlier in the morning, I saw the three “different” users i was suspicious about joined together as usual. Now, I no longer see any those names… wonder what happened.

  • Pitch120

    I’ve kinda learned that this is the lay of the land. The players just want to take your money, and the sites just want the rake. They don’t care about player’s feelings.

    It’s just made me more conscious about game selection and who I play against. I don’t play in massive tourneys or double ups anymore because of these reasons. My 1-3 lineups aren’t beating 150 lineups (or 10 players using the same lineup). Anyone who gives me the 100 reasons why it benefits me to face trains or lineup sharers, I absolutely don’t buy it.

  • Pitch120

    I also think the “sharing of information” has ruined the integrity of the game. I’ve always done the same independant research on my own. But now, everyone knows everything. My sleeper that was 2% owned two years about is 20% owned now. It is what it is, but I think that’s whats hurting the game just as much

  • dude_abides7

    @Pitch120 said...

    I’ve kinda learned that this is the lay of the land. The players just want to take your money, and the sites just want the rake. They don’t care about player’s feelings.

    It’s just made me more conscious about game selection and who I play against. I don’t play in massive tourneys or double ups anymore because of these reasons. My 1-3 lineups aren’t beating 150 lineups (or 10 players using the same lineup). Anyone who gives me the 100 reasons why it benefits me to face trains or lineup sharers, I absolutely don’t buy it.

    The fact that you limit your play because of these activities is EXACTLY why the sites should care. I argue that their bottom line will be better with a more transparent and fair ecosystem. What they lose in ‘volume player’ profit will be offset by the fact that more casual and intermediate players feel comfortable competing across the board. This would also serve as a positive indicator to regulators that the sites are acting on the best interest of the consumers and get them off their backs. A win-win.

    What a novel thought, huh? Will they do it? Not a friggin chance. Or at least not with the current leadership running these companies. Only if their ineptness is removed (i.e. thrown out on their ass) will things get any better. I for one am certainly not holding my breath.

  • Pitch120

    @dude_abides7 said...

    The fact that you limit your play because of these activities is EXACTLY why the sites should care. I argue that their bottom line will be better with a more transparent and fair ecosystem. What they lose in ‘volume player’ profit will be offset by the fact that more casual and intermediate players feel comfortable competing across the board. This would also serve as a positive indicator to regulators that the sites are acting on the best interest of the consumers and get them off their backs. A win-win.

    What a novel thought, huh? Will they do it? Not a friggin chance. Or at least not with the current leadership running these companies. Only if their ineptness is removed (i.e. thrown out on their ass) will things get any better. I for one am certainly not holding my breath.

    The volume players run the sites, not the sites themselves. They cater to them. It’s no different than a casino.

    Look at the world championships. It’s all “known” players. They either run $1k qualifiers or cheap ones with massive multi-entry. I was looking for single or three max qualifiers for these and nothing.

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

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    @feekdogg said...

    I play $5 3-man contests on Fanduel. I ended up in a game with both daut44 and hoop2410. Same exact lineup. I screwed up by being the first person to enter the contest. They swooped in. When I emailed support to ask if there was any way to block users from entering small cash games, I was told that it’s actually to my advantage to play 2 players with the same lineup, as I only have to beat one lineup instead of two. Yes, I have the advantage putting together my lineup during my lunch hour against 2 pros working together.

    No offense Feekdogg, but it’s uninformed posts like this that sort of hurt the OP’s and many others across the industries concerns towards lineup sharing.

    I can pretty much guarantee you that those two do not work together and just happened to land on the same lineup, which seems like a pretty common theme last night, if that’s what you are referring to.

    Also, the intent of this thread was to bring to the attention of guys that are known lineup sharers, not people entering small stakes,

  • dude_abides7

    @bhdevault said...

    No offense Feekdogg, but it’s uninformed posts like this that sort of hurt the OP’s and many others across the industries concerns towards lineup sharing.

    I can pretty much guarantee you that those two do not work together and just happened to land on the same lineup, which seems like a pretty common theme last night, if that’s what you are referring to.

    Also, the intent of this thread was to bring to the attention of guys that are known lineup sharers, not people entering small stakes,

    These are one in the same. The guys doing the sharing have no shame and often play the lowest stakes as well.

    (That said, I will grant you that Hoop2410 is not the droid we’re looking for here. We all know who the real abusers are because there are no less than 20 threads calling them out. )

  • feekdogg

    @bhdevault said...

    No offense Feekdogg, but it’s uninformed posts like this that sort of hurt the OP’s and many others across the industries concerns towards lineup sharing.

    I can pretty much guarantee you that those two do not work together and just happened to land on the same lineup, which seems like a pretty common theme last night, if that’s what you are referring to.

    Also, the intent of this thread was to bring to the attention of guys that are known lineup sharers, not people entering small stakes,

    I’m not referring to last night. I posted about it here on 11/7. 7-game NBA slate.

  • Jazzraz

    • 333

      RG Overall Ranking

    @dude_abides7 said...

    These are one in the same. The guys doing the sharing have no shame and often play the lowest stakes as well.

    (That said, I will grant you that Hoop2410 is not the droid we’re looking for here. We all know who the real abusers are because there are no less than 20 threads calling them out. )

    I agree, a lot of the issues are intertwined, but posts throwing peoples names out there that aren’t working together / implying that you are at a disadvantage in a 3-man against identical lineups take away from the legitimate issues that are being discussed and may make it harder for a lot of people who may not be super informed to know which are real issues and what aren’t issues at all (like 3-mans against 2 identical lineups).

  • sjs1890

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBC Finalist

    @Cal said...

    I believe RangerC’s mazwa/raging phillip thread led to the Community Guidelines. There are many upset that we didn’t get communication from DK on what happened or that those two accounts weren’t banned, but I definitely wouldn’t say these are dead end issues. DraftKings reps are no longer allowed to participate on RG but plenty of people there read these threads. Keep it constructive, explain why you don’t like an issue and why you think it is bad for casual players/DFS, and you may have an impact.

    The problem is that the community guidelines didn’t amount to anything besides more confusion and frustration. Just the term “community guidelines” is laughable. Also who said DK reps are no longer able to participate on RG??? I’m 100% sure a DK rep commented on the no late swap for nba thread, they only respond to whatever they feel like which is sad.

  • TheTruthIsALie

    @dude_abides7 said...

    The fact that you limit your play because of these activities is EXACTLY why the sites should care. I argue that their bottom line will be better with a more transparent and fair ecosystem. What they lose in ‘volume player’ profit will be offset by the fact that more casual and intermediate players feel comfortable competing across the board. This would also serve as a positive indicator to regulators that the sites are acting on the best interest of the consumers and get them off their backs. A win-win.

    Dude, I couldn’t have said it any better. Can anyone provide valid counterarguments to The Dude’s line of reasoning?

  • TheTruthIsALie

    @bhdevault said...

    I can pretty much guarantee you that those two do not work together and just happened to land on the same lineup

    You can or you are?

  • Epicsic

    @Cal said...

    Lots of misinformation in this tread. We need to clarify some things:

    1. I completely understand that you are turned off by seeing players share lineups. It makes for a bad experience for some users and the optics are very bad, leading to many threads like this.
    2. Its not cheating. DraftKings is not looking the other way. Working with a friend to create a lineup in a cash game is allowed.
    3. I don’t think these guys ever said they don’t work together to create a cash lineup. I’m almost positive none of these guys said it is -EV to share a lineup in a 50/50. There was a long thread about how it is -EV to share a lineup in a 3 man, you may be confusing those situations.

    It’s is cheating just use common sense. Just because draftkings allows it doesn’t mean it’s not wrong. My god man. DFS is about putting YOUR lineup against someone else. Yea talking to a friend about some plays and direction of lineup building is fine and expected but to say a group of “friends” all collude together for one main lineup for one main reason for all them to win and spilt winnings.

  • Messiah717

    There’s no getting around the fact that this is bad for DFS. Instead of people being worried about having to play against sharks they now have to worry about playing against teams of sharks. Another very valid point that previous posters have brought up are the payouts. Your lineup can have an awesome night and what happens? You fall below the 200 people with the same score and what should’ve been a nice payday ends up being tiny.

  • rainbowtroutman

    @Epicsic said...

    It’s is cheating just use common sense. Just because draftkings allows it doesn’t mean it’s not wrong.

    DK allows everything because there are only “guidelines” and no rules hence no repurcussions

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

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      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @dude_abides7 said...

    The fact that you limit your play because of these activities is EXACTLY why the sites should care.

    Agree – this is by far the best point that can come out of these threads for players turned off by this issue. A large volume of constructive players describing how the issue negatively affects their play volume and experience.

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

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    @Epicsic said...

    It’s is cheating just use common sense. Just because draftkings allows it doesn’t mean it’s not wrong. My god man. DFS is about putting YOUR lineup against someone else. Yea talking to a friend about some plays and direction of lineup building is fine and expected but to say a group of “friends” all collude together for one main lineup for one main reason for all them to win and spilt winnings.

    I disagree. I think another user not that far from your line of thinking could say “I think it is wrong for a group of sharp players in a private chat to analyze which players are the best value plays” or “I think it is cheating for an optimizer to exist even if you have to lock in two players before hitting the optimize button.” I think the answer is to draw the line as clearly as possible. Improve/evolve it as needed. Personally, I think the top players regularly having the same lineups in cash games is a bad look for DFS so I’d like to see clearer rules to prevent it.

  • jecarl2

    I’ve been playing DFS since the early DFS days. Nowadays game selections is pain in the ass trying to avoid these shared lineups or purchased lineups. There have been several occasions this season where 290 hasn’t cashed in 50/50s on DK. That was never the case just a couple of years ago.

    I’m just a casual player and spending the added time to avoid these situations is starting to make DFS less enjoyable. Online illegal sports betting is starting to look more and more attractive. Just like it was before DFS

  • kaetorade

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBBC Finalist

    @awesemo said...

    Part of our strategy to combat the lineup trains should be education. It is absolutely -ev to use the same lineup as other people in a 50/50.

    I’m going to overly simplify the game to demonstrate the concept. 4 person 50/50. Player 1 is a recreational player who will win 30% of the time in a head to head vs the other players. If they all have the same lineup he will cash 30%. If they all have independent lineups he will cash 27%. Essentially, the best strategy for the good players is to minimize the amount of the time all 3 win at the same time in favor of 2/3 cashing more frequently.

    In the online contests this effect still exists but not to the same extent. I still think it’s enough to warrant not having exactly the same lineups.

    To be clear, elite players are cashing at a rate of around 65%. Multiple entries with their identical lineups, even factoring diminishing returns, will still be heavily +EV. I get that this thread is more about the optics, but I felt compelled to point out that less EV and -EV are entirely different things.

  • gmupats87

    I played 10K a night and Sunday was my last day. I placed a 20 year ban on myself because of this BS. Let’s be honest guys, unless there are some regulations when the merger is official and the new site is launched , ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WILL HAPPEN. sites have no option but to cater to the pros. The sites haven’t turned a profit that is why referrals are gone, rake is rising, etc.

    I know many pros in the top 25 selling lineups. So even if they don’t collude and share lineups just know there are so many unethical things going on in this industry it’s not even funny.

    You think all these sites like fantasy cruncher and fantasy labs was created because they love the game? No it’s because edge is diminishing and they are trying to squeeze whatever penny is remaining.

    I know it’s fun sweating games and it makes the games more enjoyable but do yourself a favor and get out. You will never be able to beat the pros consistently.

  • mccoolio

    Why can’t they limit the same lineup being entered in small tourneys? They use time entered as a tie breaker in some tournaments, so they should be able to see who enters a lineup first…The odds of a couple guys creating the same unique lineup in a 3 or 5 man tourney has to be pretty high. Especially with players in the same order.

  • MickyD10970

    @gmupats87 said...

    I played 10K a night and Sunday was my last day. I placed a 20 year ban on myself because of this BS. Let’s be honest guys, unless there are some regulations when the merger is official and the new site is launched , ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WILL HAPPEN. sites have no option but to cater to the pros. The sites haven’t turned a profit that is why referrals are gone, rake is rising, etc.

    I know many pros in the top 25 selling lineups. So even if they don’t collude and share lineups just know there are so many unethical things going on in this industry it’s not even funny.

    You think all these sites like fantasy cruncher and fantasy labs was created because they love the game? No it’s because edge is diminishing and they are trying to squeeze whatever penny is remaining.

    I know it’s fun sweating games and it makes the games more enjoyable but do yourself a favor and get out. You will never be able to beat the pros consistently.

    Perfectly summed up. I also played pretty heavily over the past 5 years and have “retired” myself. This coming from someone who was getting invitations to sporting events on DK;s dime on a fairly regular basis. I only wonder how much money I burned making my own lineups. This game is virtually unbeatable without a professional optimizer and a an advanced statistical degree, add in pros teaming up at every game and level and no thanks.

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