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  • superstars92

    Kunu88/aboveandbeyond/MakeItRain84/Daut44/aejones (5 users) all have EXACT same lineup (same order) in my 1k double up (with only 55 entries)

    I just find this funny because I used to read about some other people posting how Kunu88/MakeItRain84/Daut44/etc. collude, and these users (check their post history) would post like “why would we collude, it’s negative EV to collude when there are so few people in a double up, blah, blah, blah,” or something like “yea we just share some projections, but we would never share the same lineup.” It’s actually funny because your EV doesn’t actually get hurt if you have identical lineups as everyone else (it’s still the same EV), and I love how they tried to use this flawed math argument to try and “convince” people they don’t actually collude or have any incentive to collude.

    The 1k double up only has 55 users, and these 5 have the exact same lineup (no other team is duplicated except this team). 55 is a small number of people too. It’s obvious they worked together because not only do they have the exact same lineup, but all players are in the same order.

    Personally, I don’t actually care because it doesn’t affect my EV either (I either beat all 5 or lose to all 5), but I do care that these people want to try and convince people that they don’t actually work together when they obviously do (which might be a violation in itself? – not positive on the exact rule, but it doesn’t sound ethical). For me, the lying and trying to give some BS arguments is worse than actually having the same lineup.

    Seeing this, I have way more respect for users like SaahilSud, youdacao, underjones, rayofhope, BirdWings, CSURAM88, Notorious, etc. (who ever else is in the same double up) because at least they are coming up with things on their own, and even if they do work with others, at least they aren’t so blatantly obvious and then try to come up with some BS excuse like they don’t actually collude.

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

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    • $1M Prize Winner

    • x4

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @enkidu_dfs said...

    Just a minor clarification, the process I was describing looks for similar lineups, not the same lineups. For example, the 8-user cluster was entering a total of 1200 unique lineups into the tournaments, all using the same distinctive exposure %‘s.

    Got it. Feel free to post the work you did/what you found here.

  • depalma13

    @awesemo said...

    Part of our strategy to combat the lineup trains should be education. It is absolutely -ev to use the same lineup as other people in a 50/50.

    I’m going to overly simplify the game to demonstrate the concept. 4 person 50/50. Player 1 is a recreational player who will win 30% of the time in a head to head vs the other players. If they all have the same lineup he will cash 30%. If they all have independent lineups he will cash 27%. Essentially, the best strategy for the good players is to minimize the amount of the time all 3 win at the same time in favor of 2/3 cashing more frequently.

    In the online contests this effect still exists but not to the same extent. I still think it’s enough to warrant not having exactly the same lineups.

    Well, this might be true in a vacuum, but recreational player is not winning 30% of the time against the likes of chipotleaddict and papagates. Recreational player runs out of money long before he makes it to that 30%.

  • rainbowtroutman

    @Cal said...

    We’re not on the same page. Enkidu is pointing out how to catch players using the same lineups. We don’t need to do that in the case of daut/makeitrain. There have been so many posts about it on RG that it is high profile. It’s currently allowed by the sites – making a lineup with friends and then playing that lineup in cash games is allowed. The first step is to codify the rules or guidelines to disallow this. Those guidelines should end the high profile cases because those players will not want their accounts banned. Then enkidu’s post comes into play – catching players who circumvent the guidelines.

    To me, it is pretty simple. DK runs their site and makes their own “guidelines”. At least 3 people in this thread have stated they are done with DFS. Many more feel the same way. DK higher-ups, I am sure make a good salary. It is up to them to change the guidelines for the masses and average players or this hobby or “living” in the case of “pros” will end. I realize this site has to sometimes be on the fence about issues, but DFS will go down if changes aren’t made. To me its clear cut—-TOO MUCH CORRUPTION AND GREED

  • TwoSHAE

    @Cal said...

    One of these guys giving the other a lineup would not be allowed, though. I’m not sure how DK would be able to determine the difference – they may need to completely reapproach this issue to satisfy people turned away be this.

    This is the only issue that should matter. Anyone could easily get 5 of their buddies to sign up, mass enter double ups and h2h and give them lineups, with some behind the scenes financial arrangement. They could say they “work together”, “create projections together”, “decide on a core together”, whatever. There is absolutely no way to distinguish division of labor teams from “teams” where one member spoon feeds the right answers to everyone else. This is a problem because any decent reg with 5 friends could effectively enter 6x in single entry double ups, 900 times in 150x entry double ups, post h2h’s from 6 different accounts, and so on. Measures should be taken to prevent this (which is effectively multi-accounting).

    This likely has happened a lot over the last few years.

    Any rules made should take into account that this is happening and it shouldn’t be. Team-imposed entry limits in cash games would be a start.

  • Unico10

    • 707

      RG Overall Ranking

    @Cal said...

    I think RangerC’s post on ragingphillip/mazwa directly led to the Community Guidelines

    The guidelines are meaningless and have been proven meaningless in the NFL MMs

  • Epicsic

    Hopefully with the merge that they can figure out a new plan of attack for problems going on. Hope they start fresh but sadly I don’t think that will happen.

    Also remember the days when DK reps would chime in on topic she like this instead of hiding?

  • dude_abides7

    @Epicsic said...

    Hopefully with the merge that they can figure out a new plan of attack for problems going on. Hope they start fresh but sadly I don’t think that will happen.

    Also remember the days when DK reps would chime in on topic she like this instead of hiding?

    Unfortunately, the merger likely will only make matters worse. Inherently, mergers involving competing brands are very messy things. Companies need to evaluate, what stays, what goes and what redundancies can be removed or streamlined. Now with a well oiled company these things can move along efficiently and effectively. These are not well oiled companies.

    The eneptness at the top is why these businesses operate and feel like a viper pit at the bottom. They can’t even figure out anything proactively. Everything needs to be a blown out, house on fire conspiracy before the sites act. This model will not go well in the M&A stage. The skeletons in the closet will have to come out in order for this deal to get final approval for execution. I have major doubts this will happen.

    “The only guarantees in DFS are rake and inaction”
    The Dude

  • Heffner

    @dude_abides7 said...

    The fact that you limit your play because of these activities is EXACTLY why the sites should care. I argue that their bottom line will be better with a more transparent and fair ecosystem. What they lose in ‘volume player’ profit will be offset by the fact that more casual and intermediate players feel comfortable competing across the board. This would also serve as a positive indicator to regulators that the sites are acting on the best interest of the consumers and get them off their backs. A win-win.

    I’ve been playing consistently for over two years and normally play 5-6 GPP lineups each night in the $3 moonshot tourney. I usually lose more than I win, but am a fairly decent player that subscribes to the advanced rotogrinder tools. After reading this thread, I feel as though it is a waste of time to play multi-entry GPPs if you are only going to submit a few lineups. It also seems as though cash games are also like throwing money away. I will now only play 3 max or single entry GPPs, while moving the rest of my business to Yahoo. While I love DFS, sadly I do think it will eventually die out due to the major sites not trying to cater more to the “non-pro” player. Why should so few people really benefit at the expense of the majority because the major DFS sites are afraid to tackle the collusion and greed issues? I would play a lot more on DFS if I felt as though I was competing on a level playing field. Instead my money being given to these sites will be limited. If enough players feel this way, it will hurt DFS greatly in the long run. Also do the big money players really need to be playing in the $1 and $2 dollar games? Instead of protecting the DFS industry, DK and FD will end up killing it by allowing this BS… Get your shit together DK and FD… What a shame.

  • EmpireFox

    You’re DEAD ON

  • guey10

    Just make everything Single Entry…lets see who the Champs are when they can only play one line!

    This seems to be all about Rake (Greed)

  • guey10

    And I would love people playing the same in single..WOULD LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • whodat2

    How about only unique lineups.
    Double the lineup.
    Double the salary.
    If you submit a lineup that’s already taken, then the site won’t accept the lineup, and tell you to try another one.

  • sluggo

    “I’ve been playing consistently for over two years and normally play 5-6 GPP lineups each night in the $3 moonshot tourney. I usually lose more than I win, but am a fairly decent player that subscribes to the advanced rotogrinder tools. After reading this thread, I feel as though it is a waste of time to play multi-entry GPPs if you are only going to submit a few lineups. It also seems as though cash games are also like throwing money away. I will now only play 3 max or single entry GPPs, while moving the rest of my business to Yahoo. While I love DFS, sadly I do think it will eventually die out due to the major sites not trying to cater more to the “non-pro” player. Why should so few people really benefit at the expense of the majority because the major DFS sites are afraid to tackle the collusion and greed issues? I would play a lot more on DFS if I felt as though I was competing on a level playing field. Instead my money being given to these sites will be limited. If enough players feel this way, it will hurt DFS greatly in the long run. Also do the big money players really need to be playing in the $1 and $2 dollar games? Instead of protecting the DFS industry, DK and FD will end up killing it by allowing this BS… Get your shit together DK and FD… What a shame.”

    amen brother! ive cut my play way back.

  • JimKronlund

    @whodat2 said...

    How about only unique lineups.
    Double the lineup.
    Double the salary.
    If you submit a lineup that’s already taken, then the site won’t accept the lineup, and tell you to try another one.

    Now that is an interesting possibility. I do not think it will solve team play and collusion but I like the idea.

  • Zieg30

    • 615

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    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @JimKronlund said...

    Now that is an interesting possibility. I do not think it will solve team play and collusion but I like the idea.

    Horrible idea, generally, but okay if folks want a niche tournament for it. One shouldn’t be prevented from putting in the lineup one wants to simply because another entrant entered it first. That’d turn DFS into a game of “who can enter their best lineup the fastest the moment the tournament opens up”.

  • jimfred82

    • Blogger of the Month

    @whodat2 said...

    How about only unique lineups.
    Double the lineup.
    Double the salary.
    If you submit a lineup that’s already taken, then the site won’t accept the lineup, and tell you to try another one.

    not a bad concept, but what if you really liked your lineup and then couldn’t enter it because someone else had already beaten you to it? And then what would you do if that lineup ended up cashing big while you made the one change the blew yours up?

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    I could just see the forum exploding after that happened. It would then become, “The Sharks all win as they enter all the good lineups RIGHT when the tournaments get released”.

  • Zieg30

    • 615

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    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @bhdevault said...

    I could just see the forum exploding after that happened. It would then become, “The Sharks all win as they enter all the good lineups RIGHT when the tournaments get released”.

    Yeah. Lots of blame would be put on scripts that enter all of their lineups immediately.

    It really makes no sense to structure it this way, so I hope the sites don’t get any ideas from this thread!

  • rumsey182

    Guys this is really simple. Every player has the chance to put in any combination of a lineup they would like. In theory, you could have arrived at the exact same one as them. They can’t regulate people putting in a lineup, that is the whole idea of the site and the business model. Game selection guys, just play h2h against some random person and avoid the problem all together? Play GPPS? You all are acting like you can’t avoid pros. Basically your logic is “ why am i playing against the same pros playing the same lineups when i don’t try to avoid them?”,… you see the issue here don’t you? It isn’t like you are forced to play on the same site, in the same games, every time.

    Now if you wanted to say the sites should impose entry caps, sure that is a much different story. You guys aren’t talking ecosystem, long term for the site, anything,.. all you are doing is whining because you are playing against pros. They are allowed to play any lineup they like as long as it is under the cap (and follows any stacking guidelines).

    I don’t understand why people are upset or mad when people who are good pros do things to create edges for themselves, that is their job and what they invest their time and energy in. It is a zero sum game, everyone can’t win. You guys sound like poker players after the poker boom died down. You can’t have a game of skill where you get mad at higher skill players making more profit from it.

  • TheTruthIsALie

    @rumsey182 said...

    you get mad at higher skill players making more profit from it.

    I think this is the crux: are they really higher-skill players if they are cheating the system (i.e. collaborating and circumventing entry limits)?

  • jimfred82

    • Blogger of the Month

    @bhdevault said...

    I could just see the forum exploding after that happened. It would then become, “The Sharks all win as they enter all the good lineups RIGHT when the tournaments get released”.

    yep

  • TwoSHAE

    @whodat2 said...

    How about only unique lineups.
    Double the lineup.
    Double the salary.
    If you submit a lineup that’s already taken, then the site won’t accept the lineup, and tell you to try another one.

    This would be a disaster. What happens when you submit a lineup and can’t because someone else has it, but then later that person edits off it to something else? You get shut out of playing that lineup even though no one else plays it just based on the precise moment you tried to enter it.

    I think there are far more fair ways to attack this problem.

  • dude_abides7

    @rumsey182 said...

    Now if you wanted to say the sites should impose entry caps, sure that is a much different story. You guys aren’t talking ecosystem, long term for the site, anything,.. all you are doing is whining because you are playing against pros. They are allowed to play any lineup they like as long as it is under the cap (and follows any stacking guidelines).

    I don’t understand why people are upset or mad when people who are good pros do things to create edges for themselves, that is their job and what they invest their time and energy in. It is a zero sum game, everyone can’t win. You guys sound like poker players after the poker boom died down. You can’t have a game of skill where you get mad at higher skill players making more profit from it.

    I think I take issue with the premise of your statement, specifically that we are all ‘just complaining’ and not concerned with the long term ecosystem of DFS. I can’t speak for everyone here, but the “ecosystem” position certainly has been my argument.

    I am less concerned with the player conduct of the “pros” and more with the way the sites refuse to provide CLARITY on their Swiss cheese “guidelines” that do more harm than good. I argue that this ineptness or blatant refusal to address these issues has a mass negative effect on their cash flow for the sites.

    Where DK/FD are certainly creating rake windfalls by allowing mass entry “pros” to run roughshod and cannibalize the contests and the integrity therein, they are also losing the loyal business of the average guy who loves DFS, plays every day, but no longer feels the system creates a fair playing field. We have post after post in these threads from daily players that have had enough and are walking away. These are not crybabies. They are smart individuals who can no longer justify their game play. They know how to call a spade a spade.

    In summation, my position is that whereas MME and high volume cash entries certainly draw a lot of water for the sites, the exodus of the mid-level player is and will have disastrous effects on this industry. Think of it like the Middle class. Their contribution can only be understood when one measures the cumulative effect of their numbers. If this DFS thing becomes entirely sharks vs new fish the industry is doomed. No one will stick around long enough to become successful. Furthermore, the “pros” will have to become even more aggressive to maintain their ‘edge’. More regulator initiatives will ensue.

    When I think of a new player coming into DFS I picture that opening scene in Saving Private Ryan. The Allied forces storming the beach and getting cut down by a relentless bombardment of lead and mortar fire. Of course these soldiers didn’t have a choice but to push up that beach and ‘win’, but DFS enthusiasts certainly maintain the choice to play or walk away. The voices I hear on these threads tells me that they are walking away. The sites need to care and act. Failure to do so will bring on the end of this already fragile industry.

  • JimKronlund

    @Zieg30 said...

    Horrible idea, generally, but okay if folks want a niche tournament for it. One shouldn’t be prevented from putting in the lineup one wants to simply because another entrant entered it first. That’d turn DFS into a game of “who can enter their best lineup the fastest the moment the tournament opens up”.

    Yeah I can see the downfalls would be quite disastrous.
    bhdevault “The Sharks all win as they enter all the good lineups RIGHT when the tournaments get released”. TRUE TwoSHAE “What happens when you submit a lineup and can’t because someone else has it, but then later that person edits off it to something else? “. TRUE
    Zieg30 "That'd turn DFS into a game of "who can enter their best lineup the fastest the moment the tournament opens up". TRUE" Zieg30 “I hope the sites don’t get any ideas from this thread!”.
    This is an open forum where the good, bad, and the ugly all gets discussed. We do not want “group think” theory to take hold and have others scared to voice their opinions. The suggestions that are not viable get dismissed pretty thoroughly and swiftly. So I would not fear DK taking a poor idea from here and running with it. Its hard enough to get them to run with the no brainer stuff.

  • depalma13

    The easiest way to stop it is for the sites to block players from contests based on how much of a lifetime profit they have.

    These sites know if you have a profit or not. If you have a lifetime profit of 2K, you don’t get to enter $1 contests (cash or gpp) until you’re winnings fall below that level. Profit 5k, get removed from $2 and $1 contests. Profit $10k you are out of $3 and below. Profit 15k no $4 contests or below. Above that, you are on your own.

    If the sites want to run big GPPs, start them at $5 and than it is up to the player if he wants to go up against the sharks in their pool. The sites can even eliminate the entry caps because everyone knows what they are getting into at that point.

    As for the lineup sellers. If their lineups are successful, the people buying them will profit quickly and be removed form the smaller dollar contests. If they remain, it will become quite obvious that the lineups are bad and the players are not winning with them.

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