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  • MarMarHoopStar

    I’m planning on max entry in an NBA GPP, undecided whether it’ll be FanDuel or DraftKings. Looking for the best bang for my buck, for NFL it’s much easier to choose because there were 100k+ entry GPPs for $1. NBA is quite different, $150 in max entry fees to win at most $500 doesn’t seem worth it. What’s catching my eye as of now are Fanduels $4 – $100,000 top price (top 33k ppl win) and DraftKings $4 – $50,000 top prize (top 40k ppl win), both have same number of entrants [147k spots & max entries (150)]

    Is this the best choice for prize/dollar for entering maximum amount of times?

  • JSteele

    These are the top prizes for low entry fee but you could probably max out a higher dollar entry fee for the same amount and not have to compete with 147k others

  • Yahoo

    If you believe MME would be profitable for you, and dont have the bankroll for max entering the slam, Id definitely enter the $4 and not the $1. Keep in mind your 150 entries is a tiny fraction of 200,000 entrants. Good luck

  • wolfjb1

    @MarMarHoopStar said...

    $150 in max entry fees to win at most $500 doesn’t seem worth it

    Why not? Win $500 on $150 a few times a week all season long and you’ve got a tidy profit. It’s like grinding cash games.

  • skankinmat

    I would play the FD $4 tourney if you want to max enter or the $3 Shot. I would also look at playing something like a 6 game slate opposed to a 12 game slate like tomorrow so you can narrow down your core player pool a bit more.

  • whateverworks_187

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    Max entering for $500 makes no sense in big picture, because if you have a LU good enough to win first in that. Good chance you have a LU good enough to win real money.

    I’ll just throw in some random thoughts/advice about GPPs that may be useful:

    People who mass enter aren’t profitable on most nights. They typically face a slow burn of their bankroll, and then have large jumps from days where the core hits. For every day you see SaahilSud all over the leaderboard. There are days where he might cash zero of 150 LU’s (it happens to the best of us & more often than people realize).

    Mass entry works best in situations where you can leverage your chances of winning to the highest % possible. So 150 entries at $1 is much less statistically efficient then entering the same # at a higher price point with fewer LU’s to compete against. Prize pools so top heavy that flirting with a top 100 spot vs. a top 5 spot is very different. Enter at the range that lets you fill up the greatest % of the field, but also doesn’t make you uncomfortable. General rule is never bet more then 10% of bankroll on a given night. That of course is much more important rule for people that play primarily GPP’s…

    When it comes to what site to use it’s entirely preference. Many top pros find DK better for GPP, because Utility opens up more variations, and GPP creativity compared to very limiting style of FD (which is better suited to cash), but its really about play style.

    Last point, if you’re doing mass entry GPP’s make sure you know what you’re doing. Or, you will go broke quick. It’s ROI negative venture for people that don’t have experience, aren’t very knowledgable of how to manage core plays, can’t adjust to late news, and aren’t able to project ownership and pivot off of it quickly. Biggest mistake players make in GPP’s is the unwillingness to take risks, make never again lists, and follow the crowd. The best plays are almost always the ones nobody are talking about if you’re playing mass entry, because if you’re not first (or close), you’re basically last.

  • Enlightenmint

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    whatever works you are pretty wrong here… the higher you go in stakes the tougher competition. The lower the easier, its just math that most people’s edges will be bigger in a 3$ field where half the field is just not very good. Sure entering a $444 with 800 people means you might mathmatically have a greater chance if you have a great lineup, but its likely your roi is actually smaller in that event than max entering the smaller buy ins, assuming you are actually good at doing that.

    I’ve max entered for most of the nba season after building up my roll, and my roi is way bigger than when I enter the $444 or $333, and I do that nearly every night as well. I’d probably have made more profits if I skipped out on the bigger buy ins, but I like competing and learning through the experience of doing those as well.

    I also believe that I actually have a bigger edge by maxing out entries, and thus others who can max out the $27, and $333 etc also have a bigger edge on the one buy in people. As long as the projections and player picks are optimal, of course. Most of the guys maxing out entries are extremely optimal on a nightly basis so I would suggest to any person that putting $450 in the $3 on dk is a far better proposition than putting $444 into one lineup in the $100k to first tournament. Just my opinion and view though, and it is possible I could be proven wrong (I’d love to see some math.)

  • thehazyone

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    @Enlightenmint said...

    whatever works you are pretty wrong here… the higher you go in stakes the tougher competition. The lower the easier, its just math that most people’s edges will be bigger in a 3$ field where half the field is just not very good. Sure entering a $444 with 800 people means you might mathmatically have a greater chance if you have a great lineup, but its likely your roi is actually smaller in that event than max entering the smaller buy ins, assuming you are actually good at doing that.

    I’ve max entered for most of the nba season after building up my roll, and my roi is way bigger than when I enter the $444 or $333, and I do that nearly every night as well. I’d probably have made more profits if I skipped out on the bigger buy ins, but I like competing and learning through the experience of doing those as well.

    I also believe that I actually have a bigger edge by maxing out entries, and thus others who can max out the $27, and $333 etc also have a bigger edge on the one buy in people. As long as the projections and player picks are optimal, of course. Most of the guys maxing out entries are extremely optimal on a nightly basis so I would suggest to any person that putting $450 in the $3 on dk is a far better proposition than putting $444 into one lineup in the $100k to first tournament. Just my opinion and view though, and it is possible I could be proven wrong (I’d love to see some math.)

    I’m with you here. It’s also simple math. Your variance with entering 150 lineups for $450 is significantly lower than entering 1 lineup for $450. I almost never whiff completely in a slate (although there are nights where I’ll lose 60% or so of my buy ins). The key is to keep your buy ins within your bankroll limitations, don’t get the urge to jump to a bigger GPP because you want a chance at a bigger score when that GPP will cause you to risk an inordinate amount of your bankroll. Stay afloat winning a little here, losing a little there, until the day you bink. It’s all about the bink. Winning GPP’s is hard and it’s a hell of a lot harder with just one entry than it is with 150 or even 20-25 (which is what I typically do on a NBA slate).

  • billholler

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    @thehazyone said...

    I almost never whiff completely in a slate (although there are nights where I’ll lose 60% or so of my buy ins).

    This seems to be a common misconception from the guys that play 10 or less LU a night. Many assume that you are losing your whole bankroll every night if your “core” is terrible. They also seem to assume that if your core goes off that you dominate the leaderboard. Also not true. Only takes one player around your core to have a bad night and an otherwise great LU goes from potential top 10 to min cash.
    BTW, the $1 tourneys on DK only allow for 50 entries not 150. FD may be different but I can’t play on there.

  • whateverworks_187

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    I totally agree with what you’re saying. Much of my comments were blanket statements aimed at lower stakes, and were mainly focusing on the differences between maxing out a $1 tourney with 300k entries, vs. say a $20 tourney with 11k entries.

    Obviously higher entry tourneys have MUCH steeper competition. The cash # for the $444 is typically 10fp higher then say the $27 from my experiences. I also wouldn’t advocate maxing out in tourneys over the $27 buy in… Maybe would consider 10-15 entries into the $333 wildcat, but I tend to prefer slightly less sharp fields.

    ROI at different price ranges I’d probably have to research my own results to know for sure. The one advantage of higher stakes is a lower rake of like 10% vs. the typical 15%, but not sure that really cancels out the skill gap.

    High stakes also is strange, because I’d guess about 1/3rd of entries are just High rollers throwing in their cash game LU’s.

  • billholler

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    @whateverworks_187 said...

    High stakes also is strange, because I’d guess about 1/3rd of entries are just High rollers throwing in their cash game LU’s.

    Not true at all. There was a thread on here that mentioned the vast difference in Saahil’s cash lineups and GPP lineups. Cash you are looking for the safest plays with the highest floors. GPP you are looking for the contrarian plays with the highest ceilings.

    I also disagree with the higher cash number needed in higher entry fee tourneys. No proof to back that up, just going from experience.

  • whateverworks_187

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    Absolutely high stake players throw their cash LU’s into high stake GPPs night. SaahilSud doesn’t apply because he mass enters, but CSURAM88, etc. take their cash LU, and basically throw it into every GPP. This is not really a controversial statement. It’s well known.

    Higher cash lines for higher stakes events are well documented. Again, not controversial statement.

  • Supersharpie

    @MarMarHoopStar said...

    I’m planning on max entry in an NBA GPP, undecided whether it’ll be FanDuel or DraftKings. Looking for the best bang for my buck, for NFL it’s much easier to choose because there were 100k+ entry GPPs for $1. NBA is quite different, $150 in max entry fees to win at most $500 doesn’t seem worth it. What’s catching my eye as of now are Fanduels $4 – $100,000 top price (top 33k ppl win) and DraftKings $4 – $50,000 top prize (top 40k ppl win), both have same number of entrants [147k spots & max entries (150)]

    Is this the best choice for prize/dollar for entering maximum amount of times?

    How did it work out for you last night?

  • thehazyone

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    @billholler said...

    Not true at all. There was a thread on here that mentioned the vast difference in Saahil’s cash lineups and GPP lineups. Cash you are looking for the safest plays with the highest floors. GPP you are looking for the contrarian plays with the highest ceilings.

    I also disagree with the higher cash number needed in higher entry fee tourneys. No proof to back that up, just going from experience.

    For similar field sizes, it’s true. But given that smaller entry fees generally means larger field sizes it’s hard to find that direct correlation. As someone who looks at Results on a daily basis though I can assure you that the cashing/winning scores in a 1,000 person $100 GPP would be higher over a large sample size than that of a 1,000 person $5 GPP.

  • billholler

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    @thehazyone said...

    the cashing/winning scores in a 1,000 person $100 GPP would be higher over a large sample size than that of a 1,000 person $5 GPP.

    Completely agree with that. My comment was based off the general comment that higher priced entry fee means higher cashing score.

  • MarMarHoopStar

    I haven’t done it yet, looking at insight from everyone, i see a lot of good points. im gonna wait for a slate i like from top to bottom and is on my day off so i can make necessary adjustments up to the last minute (my shifts start right at 4pm game locks {Westcoast])

    Im not really trippin off of bankroll management for the one night i wanna try this, im just trying to consider how many ppl actaully max enter it, figuring not may ppl do. Just something i wanted to try at least once. Or if i should just do higher buy-in 3 max entry GPPs multiple nights over one night of a 150 entry GPP

  • Enlightenmint

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    I would suggest doing this on draftkings. I would also suggest a 50 lineup trial run in the quarter arcade. I would max enter the quarter arcade and learn how to mass edit entries through the website (using CSV files.) This makes it easy to adjust to late news which is really what will propel or break you.

  • MarMarHoopStar

    @Enlightenmint said...

    I would suggest doing this on draftkings. I would also suggest a 50 lineup trial run in the quarter arcade. I would max enter the quarter arcade and learn how to mass edit entries through the website (using CSV files.) This makes it easy to adjust to late news which is really what will propel or break you.

    I’m very familiar with this already, I’ve been playing since DraftKings existence, but one thing I’ve never done is max enter a GPP (other than 3 entry max lol) and was just wanting to do it once. Just looking for best bang for my buck that’s not a cash game

  • ldmariodl28

    I believe MME is not a one day thing, it’s a commitment. You either do it or you don’t. With 3 possible options (lose big, break even, win big) doing this one day isn’t going to give you a true feel of the process.

  • electrichaz3

    so here is my experience. been playing gpp’s only for almost 3 years now. I’ve finally now recently won enough to max enter gpp’s, but im still not comfortable with max entering the slam, I do about 20 line ups for that gpp. I’ve always entered about 20-30 lineups a night, research about 3 hours a day with RG premium for FD. Now that i have won some real money I am max entering the $3-4 shot every night.

    My thoughts initially were that here we go, max entries, max exposure, here comes all the $$$$$$$$!!!!!! I was wrong. It is so incredibly difficult to manager 150 lineups in a gpp with late breaking news etc. I am having to invest like double the time i normally invest to plan ahead, plan pivots, etc etc etc. I have gained an enormous amount of respect for the people that do this on a mass level. It’s only like 5% having a BR. The strategy and planning and time invested is insane and these guys are earning every penny. I have been max entering for 2 weeks now and i am still adjusting. It is so difficult to me to maintain my core with that many lineups. You feel like because you have so many entries you want to cover every possible scenario, but obviously thats not possible nor optimal.

    my 2 cents

  • thehazyone

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    @electrichaz3 said...

    so here is my experience. been playing gpp’s only for almost 3 years now. I’ve finally now recently won enough to max enter gpp’s, but im still not comfortable with max entering the slam, I do about 20 line ups for that gpp. I’ve always entered about 20-30 lineups a night, research about 3 hours a day with RG premium for FD. Now that i have won some real money I am max entering the $3-4 shot every night.

    My thoughts initially were that here we go, max entries, max exposure, here comes all the $$$$$$$$!!!!!! I was wrong. It is so incredibly difficult to manager 150 lineups in a gpp with late breaking news etc. I am having to invest like double the time i normally invest to plan ahead, plan pivots, etc etc etc. I have gained an enormous amount of respect for the people that do this on a mass level. It’s only like 5% having a BR. The strategy and planning and time invested is insane and these guys are earning every penny. I have been max entering for 2 weeks now and i am still adjusting. It is so difficult to me to maintain my core with that many lineups. You feel like because you have so many entries you want to cover every possible scenario, but obviously thats not possible nor optimal.

    my 2 cents

    Love this response. For people that think MME = printing money, try it for a month… heck, a week. It’s way harder than it looks, especially with NBA.

  • electrichaz3

    no question, and it also challenges how strongly you feel about the plays you feel you’re going all in on. It is a completely different feeling having 90% exposure to norman powell with like 1500 on the line instead of 150. It’s a tough feeling to have a guy bomb 90% of your lineups from your core and you lose all the money.

  • tonytone1908

    Somebody got their tax returns already, eh? Many of us have made that mistake I think!

    Maybe better off just playing 1 LU in a higher stakes game? Or instead of maxing out the Shot maybe just put 20 LU’s in the Slam?

  • BRORANNOSAURUS_FLEX

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    @MarMarHoopStar said...

    I’m very familiar with this already, I’ve been playing since DraftKings existence, but one thing I’ve never done is max enter a GPP (other than 3 entry max lol) and was just wanting to do it once. Just looking for best bang for my buck that’s not a cash game

    If you want to have a night of fun, I would suggest entering a higher dollar tournament.

    You can enter a $333 GPP, with a 50k top prize, and have ~800 other people to compete with. Even with 150 lineups, you’ll still have to deal with 100k other entires in the smaller tournaments.

    I would only max enter the small field GPP’s if you can do it everyday for a few weeks.

  • dworkman

    I researched this myself awhile back, and the results told me all I needed to know. Take the results of any large field NBA GPP with a $3 or $4 buy-in on DK, and look at the overall profit made by a “# of entries” cohort. So you’ll have to manipulate the data in such a way that you get the aggregated $$ won/loss of all players who entered 150, 149, 148….2, 1 lineups. Then, look at how many lineups were entered in each cohort. What you will find is, night after night, the cohort of players who enter 150 lineups are the ONLY cohort of players who finish with a profit for that night. The distribution basically repeats itself every night. You make think, “duh”, but this isn’t necessarily intuitive in my opinion, when you consider that players who enter 1 lineup in these GPPs enter almost exactly the same number of total lineups as players who enter 150 lineups. Typical results for a $4 main slate GPP on DK with 90K entries will look something like this…. “1 lineup” cohort- 17,000 players=> 17,000 total entries (20% of field). the “150 lineup cohort”- 115 players=> 17,350 entries (also about 20% of field). The kicker is, although these two cohorts account for about the same number of total entries, they consistently yield completely different results. Each night, without fail, the 115 players who enter 150 lineups see an overall profit of $50K+. And each night without fail, the 17,000 players who enter one lineup see an overall profit of -$50K or less. In fact the only cohort who is EVER consistently profitable in DK GPPs is the max entry cohort. There are a lot of ways to interpret those results, and I could share some deeper findings, but I think the major takeaway for me, is that the advantage of playing max lineups in large field GPPs is immense. In fact, I’d go so far as to say if you aren’t playing max lineups in GPPs, you are straight gambling and have an extremely negative expectation that cannot be overcome by skilled lineup setting. I’ve also tracked players like Youdacao, CA, etc, and it’s true that they lose (in the GPPs) on most nights, but the range (character limit reached)

  • BerkeleyBoss

    @dworkman said...

    I researched this myself awhile back, and the results told me all I needed to know. Take the results of any large field NBA GPP with a $3 or $4 buy-in on DK, and look at the overall profit made by a “# of entries” cohort. So you’ll have to manipulate the data in such a way that you get the aggregated $$ won/loss of all players who entered 150, 149, 148….2, 1 lineups. Then, look at how many lineups were entered in each cohort. What you will find is, night after night, the cohort of players who enter 150 lineups are the ONLY cohort of players who finish with a profit for that night. The distribution basically repeats itself every night. You make think, “duh”, but this isn’t necessarily intuitive in my opinion, when you consider that players who enter 1 lineup in these GPPs enter almost exactly the same number of total lineups as players who enter 150 lineups. Typical results for a $4 main slate GPP on DK with 90K entries will look something like this…. “1 lineup” cohort- 17,000 players=> 17,000 total entries (20% of field). the “150 lineup cohort”- 115 players=> 17,350 entries (also about 20% of field). The kicker is, although these two cohorts account for about the same number of total entries, they consistently yield completely different results. Each night, without fail, the 115 players who enter 150 lineups see an overall profit of $50K+. And each night without fail, the 17,000 players who enter one lineup see an overall profit of -$50K or less. In fact the only cohort who is EVER consistently profitable in DK GPPs is the max entry cohort. There are a lot of ways to interpret those results, and I could share some deeper findings, but I think the major takeaway for me, is that the advantage of playing max lineups in large field GPPs is immense. In fact, I’d go so far as to say if you aren’t playing max lineups in GPPs, you are straight gambling and have an extremely negative expectation that cannot be overcome by skilled lineup setting. I’ve also tracked players like Youdacao, CA, etc, and it’s true that they lose (in the GPPs) on most nights, but the range (character limit reached)

    I haven’t done the research, but it seems like this would be attributable to a large skill gap between those that MME and those that single enter big GPPs. I would assume that a large majority of those that play 150 lineups on any given night are skilled professionals. You’d have to somehow adjust for skill to really see the edge or lack there of associated with MME’n.

    Theoretically, what edge does entering 150 lineups really give somebody? It seems like the main difference would be the reduction in variance, which would allow one to put more money at risk each day. If anything, i would expect a 1 lineup player to have a higher ev than a 150 lineup player of the same skill level, since he/she would be playing the “best” or highest ev lineup among those 150 each day.

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