INDUSTRY FORUM

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  • RangerC

    So DK has this thing called a lineup limit. It’s part of the new regulations (specifically New York), with 150 being the cap, regardless of size of contest. Problem is, DK doesn’t enforce this limit. If you look in the Golf Thread from this week, a few posters noticed that mazwa/ragingphillip max-enters Golf contests, both players have the exact same core (with nearly identical ownership percentages), but somehow have zero overlapping lineups. Whether this is one player with two accounts or a team this is obviously WHY lineup limits are in place – if you want to go all out on a core whether it’s a QB/WR combo, a stack in baseball, or 5 golfers on one side of the weather draw in golf, you have a limit – that way we are all playing the same game.

    Go back one week. Mazwa/ragingphillip ran their lineup generator, created one set of 300 lineups, and each account entered 150 of them.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I8OfWj8oQ9GpI6GCW_t3hkzYs1GvIeJW-WYcwCXpsaE/edit?usp=sharing

    Original Data:

    http://www.thefantasyfanatics.com/dfs/pga/ownership.cfm?viewContest=129
    (you can look at all the other max entry guys too, no else is pulling this crap, at least not this obviously)

    If you don’t want to look through all the data:

    mazwa
    Player Usage Breakdown

    Bubba Watson 85.3%
    Dustin Johnson 78.0%
    J.B. Holmes 73.3%
    Steve Stricker 57.3%
    Sergio Garcia 43.3%
    Justin Rose 42.0%
    Brendan Steele 30.7%
    Jim Furyk 26.7%
    Bill Haas 26.0%
    Gary Woodland 20.7%
    Henrik Stenson 20.0%
    Phil Mickelson 18.7%

    ragingphilip

    Bubba Watson 88.0%
    Dustin Johnson 78.7%
    J.B. Holmes 69.3%
    Steve Stricker 64.0%
    Sergio Garcia 45.3%
    Jim Furyk 32.7%
    Bill Haas 28.0%
    Justin Rose 27.3%
    Brendan Steele 24.7%
    Henrik Stenson 21.3%
    Gary Woodland 21.3%
    Phil Mickelson 20%

    ZERO lineup overlap. Much easier to win a million dollars when you get to enter 300 lineups and everyone else gets to enter 150. BTW, DK has been informed of this and apparently has no problem with it….

  • jr1886

    • 2017 FanDuel WFBBC Finalist

    This forum is getting interesting tonight, lol. Very strong circumstantial evidence here, but . . . it’s hard for Draftkings to police this after the fact. Whenever large amount of money are at stake, people will seek an edge, even if that means doing things illegally (e.g., insider trading). All I can control is to try to beat these guys, and worry less about cheating. If this is cheating at all, they are very skilled. Moreover, I can see two brothers doing their research together and deciding to play the same core. So it’s hard to prove this is cheating at all.

  • MRCOOKONUTS

    Not cheating,just using the system to your advantage.Anyone can get one or more friends to coordinate lineups and then you and each friend enter 150 times..The 150 entry limit is only a disadvantage to a player who is a lone wolf in DFS.But if you have a syndicate,its ez to buck the system legally.I cant see how you police this.
    It’s tough noogies to the common player however,there have been million dollar winners who only had a few entries.

  • RangerC

    @MRCOOKONUTS said...

    Not cheating,just using the system to your advantage.
    Anyone can get one or more friends to coordinate lineups and then you and each friend enter 150 times….
    The 150 entry limit is only a disadvantage to a player who is a lone wolf in DFS.But if you have a syndicate,its ez to buck the system.

    Then what is the point of putting a lineup limit in regulations? If this isn’t cheating, why is there even a lineup limit in the first place? BTW, I didn’t look at all the max entry guys but there didn’t appear to be anyone else pulling this at first perusal. Maxdalury doesn’t generate 150 LUs, then have lurydamax enter another 150 with the same core.

  • jakz101

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    • x5

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    Pretty strong circumstantial evidence, but seems like they would need more than strong circumstantial evidence to take away a $1m first prize.

  • MRCOOKONUTS

    @RangerC said...

    Then what is the point of putting a lineup limit in regulations? If this isn’t cheating, why is there even a lineup limit in the first place? BTW, I didn’t look at all the max entry guys but there didn’t appear to be anyone else pulling this at first perusal. Maxdalury doesn’t generate 150 LUs, then have lurydamax enter another 150 with the same core.

    I think lineup limits was only implemented to please the government regulators but its basically useless.

  • Unico10

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    @jakz101 said...

    Pretty strong circumstantial evidence, but seems like they would need more than strong circumstantial evidence to take away a $1m first prize.

    Follow the money….

    Did they split the prize?

    If yes than it is collusion. Is against the rules and DK terms and conditions…. and the contest was tainted.

  • jakz101

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    • x5

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @Unico10 said...

    Follow the money….

    Did they split the prize?

    If yes than it is collusion. Is against the rules and DK terms and conditions…. and the contest was tainted.

    And how do you propose we find out if they split the money or not?

  • cutter2225

    @MRCOOKONUTS said...

    I think lineup limits was only implemented to please the government regulators but its basically useless.

    Exactly!! Syndicates will always exist when large amounts of money are available to be won. Unfortunately for the majority of us lone wolves it’ll be nearly impossible to police. To make matters worse its unlikely the fantasy sites care this is happening.

  • RangerC

    @jr1886 said...

    If this is cheating at all, they are very skilled.

    Not really… a smarter thing to do would have been to put one guy with 100% Bubba (for example) while also overlapping a couple lineups to cover their tracks. Don’t think they realized how easily you can look up this data with TFF’s tools.

    Here’s what they did this slate:

    ragingphilip
    Dustin Johnson 86.0%
    Hudson Swafford 82.7%
    George Coetzee 70.0%
    Brian Harman 42.7%
    Daniel Summerhays 40.0%
    Harold Varner 40.0%
    Vijay Singh 36.7%
    Emiliano Grillo 34.7%
    Jim Furyk 28.7%
    Ryan Palmer 24.0%
    Ben Crane 20.7%
    Tony Finau 19.3%
    Jason Day 14.0%
    Jon Rahm 13.3%
    Charley Hoffman 10.7%
    Kevin Kisner 8.0%
    Matt Kuchar 6.7%

    mazwa
    Dustin Johnson 83.3%
    Hudson Swafford 78.7%
    George Coetzee 73.3%
    Brian Harman 40.7%
    Harold Varner 40.7%
    Daniel Summerhays 40.0%
    Emiliano Grillo 40.0%
    Vijay Singh 31.3%
    Jim Furyk 26.0%
    Ben Crane 21.3%
    Tony Finau 21.3%
    Jason Day 18.0%
    Kevin Kisner 18.0%
    Jon Rahm 14.7%
    Ryan Palmer 10.7%
    Roberto Castro 8.7%
    Charley Hoffman 6.7%
    Matt Kuchar 6.0%

    Same core, no overlap (obviously a 300 LU gen, split – one guy had 23 50000 salary LUs, the other 25, and the salary spend is split in a similar way the whole way down.)

  • cutter2225

    @jakz101 said...

    And how do you propose we find out if they split the money or not?

    That’s why this issue won’t go away anytime soon. The day our withdrawals start getting tracked and traced by fantasy sites or their eventual watchdogs is the day DFS dies.

  • jakz101

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    @cutter2225 said...

    That’s why this issue won’t go away anytime soon. The day our withdrawals start getting tracked and traced by fantasy sites or their eventual watchdogs is the day DFS dies.

    I’m all for regulation, but suggesting that all winnings be tracked seems pretty scary to me. I’m not sure that would be the day DFS dies … I’m more afraid that would be the day that freedom in general dies.

    Really though, the circumstantial evidence is pretty damning. I’ve been trying to think of a way that this could be policed and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, and I can’t come up with anything.

  • Unico10

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    @jakz101 said...

    And how do you propose we find out if they split the money or not?

    I am not the one running a billion dollar business, advertising clean and fair contests and writing rules that I am unwilling or unable to police and/or enforce.

    This is a serious issue

    For example I entered 20 lineups in this contest under the assumption that the max lineup limit was 150.
    If DK had set the max limit at 500, I may have entered a single bullet or maybe a max of 5…. this may or may not make sense to you, that is besides the point.

    If they cannot enforce the MM, who is to say that the MLB warning track at $150 a pop for 3 entries max is not also tainted by “buddies”… or any single entry contest for that matter

  • jr1886

    • 2017 FanDuel WFBBC Finalist

    @RangerC said...

    @jr1886 said…

    Not really… a smarter thing to do would have been to put one guy with 100% Bubba (for example) while also overlapping a couple lineups to cover their tracks. Don’t think they realized how easily you can look up this data with TFF’s tools.

    I was referring to their ability to pick the winning line-up.

  • MRCOOKONUTS

    Lower the max entry limits to 25,this makes it tougher for syndicates.
    Increase the rake on million dollar games.So less prizes won yes,but it gives all a fairer share at the top prize..Isnt that the main goal?
    We all want to win one million,not 80 bucks.
    And keep entry price at 33.00…
    You could also change contest to Half a millionaire maker,and offer top prize as 500K instead of one million.

  • cutter2225

    @Unico10 said...

    If they cannot enforce the MM, who is to say that the MLB warning track at $150 a pop for 3 entries max is not also tainted by “buddies”… or any single entry contest for that matter

    Of course this is going on at all levels. For legality reasons we say DFS is not gambling “cough cough” but it is and the point of these syndicates or partnerships is to make money and maximize profit. I’m a lone wolf and would like nothing more then to have this issue resolved but its simply not going to happen. To many loopholes.

  • tgowen

    • Blogger of the Month

    I don’t mean to sound like a jerk, but people have been complaining about lineup sharing, teams, collusion, etc. for quite some time and the typical response is to stop crying and worry about your own lineups.

    Not as much fun when you see someone pulling some of this crap (allegedly…) and watching them win a million in the process is it?

    Complain to DK, I’m sure they will give you the standard response of “I can assure you no one is at fault here” within 2 minutes of you asking about it (and no, that is not an exaggeration).

  • DCoop328

    @MRCOOKONUTS said...

    Increase the rake on million dollar games.So less prizes won yes,but it gives all a fairer share at the top prize..Isnt that the main goal?

    I had the same initial thought to this problem. Just increase the rake. That solves everything. Gives everyone a fairer share.

  • shocae

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    d

  • DCoop328

    Also,

    You guys are behind @GordonHayward20 on this. He caught a pair of that will not be named doing the same in CBB. There was a 15max 300$ tourney and this pair had 15 each and admitted via twitter what they were doing. DK said it wasn’t against the rules. So honestly I think there is no case.

  • Chuky

    If u are not entering the max entry, then your chances are not good. One entry rarely win these contests if you do research on this. Most of the times it’s the multiple entry guys winning these tournies. Until these ridiculous entry limits be reduced to about 20, I won’t enter this nonsense. Same thing with the NFL. Ridiculous entries with ridiculous entry limits. This is a ploy all the daily websites been using with extra large tournaments by putting $1m dollar prizes, and guest what? It won’t stop.

  • awesemo

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    This problem could be mostly solved if Draftkings specified what they meant by syndicate play I believe. That line is not specific enough; one player could think it means you can’t do something like get a group to dominate the head to head lobby, while another might think that it means working together to avoid duplicate lineups is prohibited. I don’t think most people would be offended by two people talking about individual lineups and deciding to not use the same one, so where is the line drawn?

  • Unico10

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    @awesemo said...

    I don’t think most people would be offended by two people talking about individual lineups and deciding to not use the same one, so where is the line drawn?

    Not at all.

    I believe the line is drawn when someone clearly circumvents or break the rules, as it appears is the case.

    I feel one first giant step that must be taken is to remove usernames and start using real names.

  • Chuky

    I hope when regulators/auditors Start checking their shiit, recommendations are given to change these nonsense. If players are working together then they are doubling the limit. Trust me regulation won’t be a pretty thing when they start checking the fairness of these games.

  • RangerC

    @awesemo said...

    This problem could be mostly solved if Draftkings specified what they meant by syndicate play I believe.

    I think they intentionally kept it vague because then they can apply it as they see fit. Look at this thread:

    https://rotogrinders.com/threads/my-2-year-experience-as-a-dk-player-and-referrer-1368027

    Guy was banned for ‘colluding’ – looks like all he did was refer crappy referrals who played their $33 MM ticket and left. They can get him for ‘collusion’ for occasionally sharing a LU, but look the other way when high stakes players do the same.

    I honestly don’t see how you can have a clause that bans syndicate play and allow 2 guys (if they are actually unique accounts) to put 300 LUs in from the same LU generator. There’s no way that they aren’t sharing profits – if you look at the LUs in comparison there’s no pattern where it appears like 1 guy picks his favorite 150 and the other picks his favorite 150 – they are uniformly assigned across the 2 players (that’s why ownership / # of LUs at each salary amount is close to identical). 2 guys aren’t going to randomly give each other 150 LUs out of a pool of 300 and then have 1 guy get 1M while the other guy gets 50K based on a coin flip.

  • bzsports4

    @Unico10 said...

    Follow the money….

    Did they split the prize?

    If yes than it is collusion. Is against the rules and DK terms and conditions…. and the contest was tainted.

    How is splitting the prize money different than buying a piece of someone’s action though? I agree this is shady, but it is extremely hard todo anything about it.

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