INDUSTRY FORUM

Comments

  • RangerC

    So DK has this thing called a lineup limit. It’s part of the new regulations (specifically New York), with 150 being the cap, regardless of size of contest. Problem is, DK doesn’t enforce this limit. If you look in the Golf Thread from this week, a few posters noticed that mazwa/ragingphillip max-enters Golf contests, both players have the exact same core (with nearly identical ownership percentages), but somehow have zero overlapping lineups. Whether this is one player with two accounts or a team this is obviously WHY lineup limits are in place – if you want to go all out on a core whether it’s a QB/WR combo, a stack in baseball, or 5 golfers on one side of the weather draw in golf, you have a limit – that way we are all playing the same game.

    Go back one week. Mazwa/ragingphillip ran their lineup generator, created one set of 300 lineups, and each account entered 150 of them.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I8OfWj8oQ9GpI6GCW_t3hkzYs1GvIeJW-WYcwCXpsaE/edit?usp=sharing

    Original Data:

    http://www.thefantasyfanatics.com/dfs/pga/ownership.cfm?viewContest=129
    (you can look at all the other max entry guys too, no else is pulling this crap, at least not this obviously)

    If you don’t want to look through all the data:

    mazwa
    Player Usage Breakdown

    Bubba Watson 85.3%
    Dustin Johnson 78.0%
    J.B. Holmes 73.3%
    Steve Stricker 57.3%
    Sergio Garcia 43.3%
    Justin Rose 42.0%
    Brendan Steele 30.7%
    Jim Furyk 26.7%
    Bill Haas 26.0%
    Gary Woodland 20.7%
    Henrik Stenson 20.0%
    Phil Mickelson 18.7%

    ragingphilip

    Bubba Watson 88.0%
    Dustin Johnson 78.7%
    J.B. Holmes 69.3%
    Steve Stricker 64.0%
    Sergio Garcia 45.3%
    Jim Furyk 32.7%
    Bill Haas 28.0%
    Justin Rose 27.3%
    Brendan Steele 24.7%
    Henrik Stenson 21.3%
    Gary Woodland 21.3%
    Phil Mickelson 20%

    ZERO lineup overlap. Much easier to win a million dollars when you get to enter 300 lineups and everyone else gets to enter 150. BTW, DK has been informed of this and apparently has no problem with it….

  • billholler

    @Hoosier02 said...

    Not vehemently defending. Just not understanding the issue. The industry has gone through enough bumps the last year I don’t understand the point of jumping to conclusions that make it more difficult for no reason. What’s the difference between sharing projections on RG or in private?

    You are either playing coy or have no idea how lineup generators work despite the fact that I gave you an example above. I have a feeling your intentions are not as coy and innocent as they first appeared.

  • billholler

    And since the issue seems to be that the industry doesn’t need another black eye, the only way to prevent it is for the industry to police itself.

    Other than people complaining about the constant commercials, no one really complained about the legitimacy or the legality of the DFS sites until a DK employee wins $350k. That never should have happened because no employee of a DFS company should have ever been allowed to play. That should have been foresight instead of hindsight.

  • tgowen

    • Blogger of the Month

    @Hoosier02 said...

    But what you and many others here is saying is not a syndicate in those terms. No more than RG is. How is sharing information and projections in a public forum different than doing it in private one?

    Sharing information in a public forum means individual players are still responsible for their own lineups and are not making decisions that benefit each other. The team play that is being discussed here involves players that are specifically working together and making decisions that benefit the partnership as a whole. These are two completely different things.

    Not to mention that the team play (which many view as collusion/syndicate play) can easily be viewed as a way to work around entry limits in both multi-entry and single entry contests.

  • Hoosier02

    @billholler said...

    You are either playing coy or have no idea how lineup generators work despite the fact that I gave you an example above. I have a feeling your intentions are not as coy and innocent as they first appeared.

    I understand how a lineup generator works. That’s why it’s the same to generate lineups using the bat projections or your own. In your example, I said I agreed that example was an issue and if that is the case I would fully agree that person should be banned. Hopefully those are the benefits of regulation that people who create multiple accounts are caught. I will let you continue your witch hunt now.

  • tgowen

    • Blogger of the Month

    @Hoosier02 said...

    Not vehemently defending. Just not understanding the issue. The industry has gone through enough bumps the last year I don’t understand the point of jumping to conclusions that make it more difficult for no reason. What’s the difference between sharing projections on RG or in private?

    Who is jumping to conclusions? There are numerous examples of potential team play and DK refuses to come out and inform anyone about whether or not this type of play is (or is not) against their terms of use. Instead they give you a political nonsense answer to keep themselves from being backed into a corner that they know is getting closer and closer.

  • Hoosier02

    @billholler said...

    And since the issue seems to be that the industry doesn’t need another black eye, the only way to prevent it is for the industry to police itself.

    Other than people complaining about the constant commercials, no one really complained about the legitimacy or the legality of the DFS sites until a DK employee wins $350k. That never should have happened because no employee of a DFS company should have ever been allowed to play. That should have been foresight instead of hindsight.

    I completely agree with this. There should have been foresight with that issue. Hopefully that’s what regulation helps with and if this is a case of someone getting around entry limits I hope they are punished fully. im just leary of the constant attacks that are on this board over so many various topics. Seems some people rather the industry just completely fold. I rather it not.

  • billholler

    @Hoosier02 said...

    I will let you continue your witch hunt now.

    Most definitely not a witch hunt. I also don’t want the industry to receive any more negative publicity especially after a few months of legal and congressional progress. This issue is going to get exponentially worse if the industry itself does not deal with it soon.

    BTW, you just agreed that I was right after saying I was wrong.

  • TeamTwerk

    @billholler said...

    So if I have $50k to risk on a large GPP like the MM it would be perfectly ok in your book if I got 9 friends to make a DK account, gave them each $4950 to deposit, then made 1500 unique lineups for us to share?

    I only used the example of 10 people since the golf milly makers are crap. If this was the NFL MM that paid 400k-1 million for 2nd, it would be financially feasible for a syndicate of 20-30 people to do the same thing. Let me use my LU generator for NFL and have the funds and ability to enter 3000-4500 lineups. I assure you I…excuse me….we, could dominate almost every GPP. I know that seems like an extreme example but it is no different than the first example.

    You seem to be under the popular misconception that a batch of lineups is somehow stronger than the sum of each individual lineup therein. If 10 players of equal skill each independently entered 150 lineups their ev as a group should be the same (actually higher) than if 1 of them entered a batch of 1500.

    I think the point of the entry limits is to prevent very good players from winning too much of the prize pools. I don’t think it has anything to do with the idea that a huge well constructed batch of lineups gives players with big bankrolls a big advantage.

  • tgowen

    • Blogger of the Month

    @Hoosier02 said...

    Seems some people rather the industry just completely fold. I rather it not.

    I’m not screaming for DFS to end, but I’m also not going to support it with a blindfold over my eyes when there are serious questions about whether or not sites are allowing people to break the terms of use, and then profit off of those who are following it.

  • billholler

    @TeamTwerk said...

    You seem to be under the popular misconception that a batch of lineups is somehow stronger than the sum of each individual lineup therein. If 10 players of equal skill each independently entered 150 lineups their ev as a group should be the same (actually higher) than if they teamed up to enter a batch of 1500.

    It’s not a popular misconception at the scale I am talking about and I am a bulk entry player, just not at the price level as some of the bigger boys. I totally understand from a logistics standpoint and from experience that just throwing in a max number of unique LU will not guarantee you a profit.

    Since golf is the subject of this thread, I assure you that almost every week I can narrow the field down to 30-35 players and assure you that more times than not, I am going to have the top 5 or 6 players in that group of 30-35. I do it on a regular basis but never seem to get the optimal combinations. Now let me enter 3000 unique lineups using those 30-35 players and I will cover almost all if not all possible combinations.

  • TeamTwerk

    @billholler said...

    It’s not a popular misconception at the scale I am talking about and I am a bulk entry player, just not at the price level as some of the bigger boys. I totally understand from a logistics standpoint and from experience that just throwing in a max number of unique LU will not guarantee you a profit.

    Since golf is the subject of this thread, I assure you that almost every week I can narrow the field down to 30-35 players and assure you that more times than not, I am going to have the top 5 or 6 players in that group of 30-35. I do it on a regular basis but never seem to get the optimal combinations. Now let me enter 3000 unique lineups using those 30-35 players and I will cover almost all if not all possible combinations.

    3000 lineups would cost you around 100k in the millionaire maker. You really would be that confident in your core? Unexpected thing happen in golf every week.

  • billholler

    @TeamTwerk said...

    3000 lineups would cost you around 100k in the millionaire maker. You really would be that confident in your core? Unexpected thing happen in golf every week.

    Yes. A min cash rate of only 20% gets you at the very least a return of 25% of your money. Your response makes it sound like you are assuming a total loss if a random scrub sneaks in. Plus in a lot of cases, that core of players can be increased to 40-45 and still give you less than 3000 viable lineups.

  • billholler

    We are of course talking about an extreme case as opposed to 2 or 3 guys maximizing a small core of players. The point is that it is not only possible but eventually likely to happen from a group of players with a bankroll similar to many of the bigger max entry players (some of which post here and I’m sure have read some of this thread).

  • TeamTwerk

    @billholler said...

    Yes. A min cash rate of only 20% gets you at the very least a return of 25% of your money. Your response makes it sound like you are assuming a total loss if a random scrub sneaks in. Plus in a lot of cases, that core of players can be increased to 40-45 and still give you less than 3000 viable lineups.

    3000 is way too many. I think your 3000th lineup is going to be way worse than your favorite lineup and your percentage won would be much lower than your single favorite lineup. I doubt even a very good player could be profitable entering that many lineups. You can only win first place once after all.

  • TeamTwerk

    @billholler said...

    We are of course talking about an extreme case as opposed to 2 or 3 guys maximizing a small core of players. The point is that it is not only possible but eventually likely to happen from a group of players with a bankroll similar to many of the bigger max entry players (some of which post here and I’m sure have read some of this thread).

    Again I don’t think there is much of an advantage to maximizing a core. The only issue to me would be if one person was using both accounts. If these guys are just friends that both play I don’t see how you could tell them they can’t enter lineups that are sort of similar but not overlapping.

  • OsRitmos

    Aren’t there 427,518,000 possible combinations with a pool of 30 players and lineups requiring 6 players? I’m not stats guru, but isn’t it 30 × 29 × 28 × 27 × 26 × 25? There are so many more possible combinations than you think in this sport, right?

    Just sayin’.

    Edit: I calculated permutations rather than combinations. I believe the actual number is 593,775. Also didn’t think about salary (duh). Still, there have got to be more than just 3,000 to cover “nearly all combinations” I would think.

  • shocae

    • 60

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    • Ranked #48

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    • 2018 DraftKings FBBWC Finalist

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    d

  • teamcdot

    Bahahahahaha, y’all are stupid AF who cry about this. Why do you guys care now? Any other times the majority of you guys say “just build a better lineup” when it has to do with a 3-5 man contest…now that it’s a huge GPP you guys care and get pissy. When it doesn’t affect your game you don’t care, but when it does affect a contest you are in you cry boo hoo hoo. #GetOverIt

  • madmanjayWV

    @teamcdot said...

    teamcdot

    +1 X 7 minutes ago Bahahahahaha, y’all are stupid AF who cry about this. Why do you guys care now? Any other times the majority of you guys say “just build a better lineup” when it has to do with a 3-5 man contest…now that it’s a huge GPP you guys care and get pissy. When it doesn’t affect your game you don’t care, but when it does affect a contest you are in you cry boo hoo hoo. #GetOverIt

    with conviction ^^^

    it’s sad I have to agree…….

  • Mphst18

    Neither has entries under those names this week.

    However looks like now that already caught once by dk colluders daut44/MIR84 are doing it this week.

  • cutter2225

    @teamcdot said...

    teamcdot

    #STFU

    That is all.

  • BIF

    @Mphst18 said...

    Neither has entries under those names this week.

    However looks like now that already caught once by dk colluders daut44/MIR84 are doing it this week.

    Well if DK is gonna let it happen, then new/old guys will try it as well

  • billholler

    @BIF said...

    Well if DK is gonna let it happen, then new/old guys will try it as well

    That was part of my point. How long before (if it isn’t happening already) that 10-20 guys join up and do the same thing?

  • thedude404

    • 2015 FanDuel NBA Playboy Mansion Finalist

    Its not that we’re wanting to bring down dfs. its that we want people at draftkings to do their jobs and police this kind of thing AND take action. Or maybe they should hire the OP of this thread since they cant seem to get a handle on what is actually going on with players at their own website.

  • billholler

    @thedude404 said...

    Its not that we’re wanting to bring down dfs. its that we want people at draftkings to do their jobs and police this kind of thing AND take action. Or maybe they should hire the OP of this thread since they cant seem to get a handle on what is actually going on with players at their own website.

    I’m only quoting you because I love your screen name and trying to increase my post count. Plus, I completely agree with your comment.

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