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  • n1ck111

    So thinking in order to help out the industry, given the current situation, it might help out if as a community we could provide some proof that DFS is a game of skill. If anyone has thoughts on the best way to prove this please offer your advice. Here are my initial thoughts on a way to prove this definitively:

    Chose a large sample size of sporting contests from the past. Choose a multi-entry, high entry fee, 50/50 since this is where I would believe the most skilled players are. Create a random algorithm that just fits salaries together to meet the cap. Enter the max amount of times for that contest. Show where that algorithm would finish on average in relation to the field over that large sample size of contests.

  • hendry

    just check my bank account ayyyyyooooooooooooooooooooooo

  • n1ck111

    ^ This should do it lol

  • atfrost

    • Blogger of the Month

    Had this argument awhile back with a guy at work. Told him that if he and I played 10 days in a row of any sport, I would beat him atleast 7 of those days; therefore, proving its not a game of chance. So far we’ve played 8 days in a row of NBA/NFL….. I’ve won 7 out of 8. Ipso Facto, I got mad skillz… and he has since dropped his argument.

  • atfrost

    • Blogger of the Month

    and im not even that good….

  • Priptonite

    • Blogger of the Month

    It doesn’t matter, sadly.

  • Fnorney76

    If you want to prove that DFS is a skill game, why does everyone only make comparisons to gambling games? The industry needs to compare its product to other skill games. Have any DK or FD commercials ever mentioned the word “skill” even once? It markets like the lottery. Its going to be treated like the lottery.

    Having said that, the AG appears to leave the door open by apparently saying that season long fantasy is in fact a skill game. So now, since DFS is extremely similar, the sites need to find out what they need to do to receive that same kind of designation.

    I think the first thing that needs to change is the multi-entry GPP. Is there another skill game that has something similar? Can you enter the same bowling tournament 100 times? Can a golfer pay for 100 mulligans? Skill games are played in single-entry formats. Gambling games like horse racing and lotto allow for multiple ticket purchases. Even when people try to defend multi-entry they immediately point to EV and ROI. Those are gambling terms bro. Those aren’t skill terms. If you remove money from the equation entirely…like in a freeroll…would any DFS player believe its fair for one player to get one freeroll entry and others to get 12 or 50 or 200? I think the sites have to cave on the games that appear to be lottery-like. You could still have multiple lineups, but each player should be allowed only one entry and the same number of lineups.

  • y2mulder

    If set up PROPERLY, it is a game of skill. This is where a couple greedy people screwed it up.

  • deebarizo

    The AG already proved it. In his letter, he said the top 1% of players win the vast majority of the winnings. That sounds like a game of skill to me.

  • Trollowitz

    Every state defines chance differently. Here is a good quote on the matter, “If a jury concludes that chance plays an important role in the outcome of a daily fantasy sports contest, there’s your violation of New York law, which in turn, sets the stage for a federal prosecution.”

    Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/sports/features/the-death-of-daily-fantasy-welcome-to-the-beginning-of-the-end-20151111#ixzz3rJJBvsVH

    I really liked the article. It wasn’t too sensational. It dealt with the actual legal issues. Grossman is right. It was those damn ads. Chutzpah gone crazy. One of the worst business models I have seen. These companies should have invested in lobbyists and lawyers instead of the damn ads.

  • n1ck111

    @Trollowitz said...

    Every state defines chance differently. Here is a good quote on the matter, “If a jury concludes that chance plays an important role in the outcome of a daily fantasy sports contest, there’s your violation of New York law, which in turn, sets the stage for a federal prosecution.”

    Would it help if we could mathematically determine the percentage chance plays in DFS versus other game of skills under the law of NY?

  • deactivated15730

    • 106

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #16

      RG Tiered Ranking

    Just have one of the 1% call their shot. Worked for Roger Sharpe and the game of pinball.

  • depalma13

    @Fnorney76 said...

    Gambling games like horse racing

    Horse racing is a game of skill.

  • L3gOnD

    I’m relatively new to DFS but do enjoy it, however the whole skill v. gambling argument everyone wants to hold onto seems rather near sighted. It obviously is a game of skill and obviously is a game of chance and obviously involves gambling.
    It is a game of skill in that if you blindly chose teams versus another who played with decent knowledge you would regularly lose…showing that there is skill. People CONSISTENTLY winning also shows it is a game of skill but where the arguments fall is when I hear the top 1% making 90% proves that it is skill and that it is like the stock market.
    1) The lottery also operates in a way where under 1% makes ALL the money, that doesn’t prove skill, just proves winning GPPs, which takes good fortune. Winning and cashing consistently, takes skill. Their emphasis should be on players cash rates and cash game consistency. Looking at that you will find ppl who win regularly outside of just big GPP scores, proving a skill factor.
    2) The stock market annually averages 7% growth whereas DFS has a rake between 10 and 15% so the comparison to investing securely in the stock market is nowhere near the same as trying to beat an already losing rake.

    DFS should be legal and so should all forms of “gambling” or skill games like poker and sports betting but the brick and mortars have their ways and their lobbyists. We all just need to hope these two monsters (DK and FD) can create their own paths and maybe fall off the skill v. gambling because all things are a gamble including getting in my car and driving down the street. Life is a gamble, so to try and say it isn’t gambling is not necessarily true. However, it is also a skill game and great entertainment and there is absolutely no reason it should be taken from us. I would think these commissioners would back it heavily as though the DFS community is rather small in comparison to fans as a whole, it still brings a significant amount of overall value in viewership and league passes, etc.

  • FunkyColdModella

    I love DFS but looking at the Milly Maker Week 8 results thread, there are a bunch of ‘skilled’ players who lost money last week.

    How is that not gambling?

  • jilesofthetrees

    • 2016 NASCAR Live Finalist

    display a histogram of all possible constructed lineups actual score for a given slate within 500$ish of the salary max. Then display the spectrum of user selected lineups for that slate. Would work anytime there aren’t wierd dnp/injuries to popular players.

  • BobGrinder

    The sites have all the proof needed, its called the results. Very easy for them to show how the same players are consistently profitable over the long run but skill vs chance is not what the battle should be fought over.

  • pmsimkins

    • 2014 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    • 2015 FanDuel WFBBC Finalist

    If the industry wants to do something for itself it’ll stop with the whole DFS isn’t gambling BS. It’s disengenuous and makes the whole thing look shady. Just own the fact that it is obviously gambling, but should be, and is, legal gambling. Just like the other zillion forms of legal gambling in the US.

  • mattymac13

    I think we all know this has nothing to do with skill, the government could care less. Nor do they care about “protecting” citizens, if they did we wouldn’t have cigarettes or alcohol. They want their big cut just like horse racing and lotteries, that’s it plain and simple. If the companies don’t want to play ball they call it illegal and ban it. Politics are corrupt, always have been always will be.

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