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  • DFSx42

    I came here with popcorn in hand but was pretty shocked to find no discussion of it.

    Worst part about it is that DK has an obvious case of cheating and yet promotes the win.

    This is just horrible. This tweet here sums it perfectly.

    https://twitter.com/williambierman/status/1214015801721868288?s=19

    Vote with your wallets folks. Boycott Draft Kings. We can’t just continue to sit back, watch this and continue paying rake when there’s so many other options out there.

  • ironmiket

    Am I the only one who would be pissed if these nobodies got a harsh punishment while the dfs pros like chipotle have been doing it for years without consequence?

  • nicholasmarsh

    @DFSx42 said...

    Tweet wasn’t deleted, just not pinned anymore

    https://twitter.com/DraftKings/status/1214003682393706496?s=19

    My bad. It became unavailable when I clicked it to view the comments. I should have dug deeper…

    EDIT: I still get “Sorry, that page doesn’t exist!” when following the provided link

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    @ironmiket said...

    Am I the only one who would be pissed if these nobodies got a harsh punishment while the dfs pros like chipotle have been doing it for years without consequence?

    Can we cut out the Chipotle brothers comment, please. The Chipotle brothers is simply not the same situation and DK has stated they have investigated that situation.

    Give DK some time to react to this news. I’m fairly confident this is probably a major discussion in house with DK. I highly doubt they ignore it but the Rep has said numerous times that they don’t provide information publicly.

    I’m not taking any sides here, but bringing up the Chipotle brothers thing is still speculation on everyone’s part. Not quite cut and dry as this situation appears.

  • hammer74

    ?? Do i need to start watching the bachelor for dfs advice? TBH ive never seen 1 episode

  • DFSx42

    @nicholasmarsh said...

    My bad. It became unavailable when I clicked it to view the comments. I should have dug deeper…

    EDIT: I still get “Sorry, that page doesn’t exist!” when following the provided link

    Actually you are correct and I’m wrong, I was just seeing it because it was in my cache still

    They deleted it…

  • bringemvaught

    • 264

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #10

      RG Tiered Ranking

    This is obvious collusion with a likely 3rd account included (with Brady and Cousins). Draftkings will have major problems long term if they don’t remedy this big time.

  • emnj69

    @bhdevault said...

    Can we cut out the Chipotle brothers comment, please. The Chipotle brothers is simply not the same situation and DK has stated they have investigated that situation.

    Give DK some time to react to this news. I’m fairly confident this is probably a major discussion in house with DK. I highly doubt they ignore it but the Rep has said numerous times that they don’t provide information publicly.

    I’m not taking any sides here, but bringing up the Chipotle brothers thing is still speculation on everyone’s part. Not quite cut and dry as this situation appears.

    if they want to go public transparency will be important-

  • Lee123

    @bringemvaught said...

    This is obvious collusion with a likely 3rd account included (with Brady and Cousins). Draftkings will have major problems long term if they don’t remedy this big time.

    What major problems will they have?

  • superstars92

    Guys you know that I have argued for this case in multiple other threads (you can see the other threads), but you guys should also know that this is impossible to prove. It’s not really that much different than the brother’s situation, except they might have been submitting from the same IP address (but in that case, since they are married, they can explain that off).

    So if they couldn’t prove the brothers were colluding (@bhdevault), how do you think this situation is different in that you can prove these two are colluding?

    I’m just playing devils’ advocate here, as I am not trying to say this is not collusion (since you guys know I am pretty active on the previous topics over this), so feel free to list your suggestions below. How will you guys (or anyone) actually prove this is collusion, different than previous cases?

    For example, @bhdevault, when you say this situation is different than the brother’s situation, what do you mean by that? The only difference I see is that they would have logged in from the same location in this case, but again, that can be explained off by the fact they are married. Other than that, I see no differences between this case and the brother’s case. Now, some guy below me will argue that “but it’s obvious the wife doesn’t know anything about football, unlike the two brothers,” and that argument doesn’t work either because how do you actually know the wife doesn’t know anything about football? How do you know that one of the two brothers does know anything about football?

    If no one here can list a good way to prove it, then I’m sorry but it’s no different then before. Again, I 100% believe collusion should not be allowed, you guys have seen my other posts about it, and I do believe collusion occurs all the time (not just here, plenty of historical examples), but I gotta just be honest with you guys here, if you can’t give a good argument below DIFFERENT than previous arguments (about the brothers, Mazwa/RagingPhillip), no one’s going to do anything about it.

  • thedude404

    • 2015 FanDuel NBA Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @Lee123 said...

    What major problems will they have?

    State attorney general type problems…..

  • cwlee

    Everyone that is upset about this will be auto entered in a 5K freeroll for Esports. This should satisfy everyone!!

  • gordylamb

    • 626

      RG Overall Ranking

    @superstars92 said...

    Guys you know that I have argued for this case in multiple other threads (you can see the other threads), but you guys should also know that this is impossible to prove. It’s not really that much different than the brother’s situation, except they might have been submitting from the same IP address (but in that case, since they are married, they can explain that off).

    So if they couldn’t prove the brothers were colluding (@bhdevault), how do you think this situation is different in that you can prove these two are colluding?

    I’m just playing devils’ advocate here, as I am not trying to say this is not collusion (since you guys know I am pretty active on the previous topics over this), so feel free to list your suggestions below. How will you guys (or anyone) actually prove this is collusion, different than previous cases?

    If no one here can list a good way to prove it, then I’m sorry but it’s no different then before.

    It really isn’t that difficult to prove – similar to the Posner poker cheating scandal, it comes down to math.

    I’ll leave it to someone smarter than I to run the actual numbers, but ignoring that these people are married, which of course does not help their “we didn’t collude” argument, the odds of two people max entering and having constructed lineups in ways that they did (ie; similar exposure over/under the field for some skill position guys, completely different QB combos) is in the fractions of a fraction of a percent.

    Is this all complicated math and could they likely easily convince a jury of their peers who aren’t math/dfs experts that this was all coincidental if it comes down to that? Certainly. But did they collude, and is it possible to prove at a 99%+ confidence interval? Absolutely.

  • sjs1890

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBC Finalist

    @superstars92 said...

    Guys you know that I have argued for this case in multiple other threads (you can see the other threads), but you guys should also know that this is impossible to prove. It’s not really that much different than the brother’s situation, except they might have been submitting from the same IP address (but in that case, since they are married, they can explain that off).

    So if they couldn’t prove the brothers were colluding (@bhdevault), how do you think this situation is different in that you can prove these two are colluding?

    I’m just playing devils’ advocate here, as I am not trying to say this is not collusion (since you guys know I am pretty active on the previous topics over this), so feel free to list your suggestions below. How will you guys (or anyone) actually prove this is collusion, different than previous cases?

    For example, @bhdevault, when you say this situation is different than the brother’s situation, what do you mean by that? The only difference I see is that they would have logged in from the same location in this case, but again, that can be explained off by the fact they are married. Other than that, I see no differences between this case and the brother’s case. Now, some guy below me will argue that “but it’s obvious the wife doesn’t know anything about football, unlike the two brothers,” and that argument doesn’t work either because how do you actually know the wife doesn’t know anything about football? How do you know that one of the two brothers do know anything about football?

    If no one here can list a good way to prove it, then I’m sorry but it’s no different then before. Again, I 100% believe collusion should not be allowed, you guys have seen my other posts about it, and I do believe collusion occurs all the time (not just here, plenty of historical examples), but I gotta just be honest with you guys here, if you can’t give a good argument below DIFFERENT than previous arguments (about the brothers, Mazwa/RagingPhillip), no one’s going to do anything about it.

    Right this case is pretty much identical to the Chipotle brothers not sure what @bhdevault is talking about. DK wont do anything like usual and this will only promote more people to collude especially on small slates.

  • bringemvaught

    • 264

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #10

      RG Tiered Ranking

    @Lee123 said...

    What major problems will they have?

    Legal/political/PR/financial. This situation is easy for the average person to understand and major media outlets would love to pick it up since it involves The Bachelor and a scandal.

  • thedude404

    • 2015 FanDuel NBA Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @superstars92 said...

    Guys you know that I have argued for this case in multiple other threads (you can see the other threads), but you guys should also know that this is impossible to prove. It’s not really that much different than the brother’s situation, except they might have been submitting from the same IP address (but in that case, since they are married, they can explain that off).

    So if they couldn’t prove the brothers were colluding (@bhdevault), how do you think this situation is different in that you can prove these two are colluding?

    I’m just playing devils’ advocate here, as I am not trying to say this is not collusion (since you guys know I am pretty active on the previous topics over this), so feel free to list your suggestions below. How will you guys (or anyone) actually prove this is collusion, different than previous cases?

    For example, @bhdevault, when you say this situation is different than the brother’s situation, what do you mean by that? The only difference I see is that they would have logged in from the same location in this case, but again, that can be explained off by the fact they are married. Other than that, I see no differences between this case and the brother’s case. Now, some guy below me will argue that “but it’s obvious the wife doesn’t know anything about football, unlike the two brothers,” and that argument doesn’t work either.

    If no one here can list a good way to prove it, then I’m sorry but it’s no different then before.

    You can prove collusion in a court of law. Racketeering, treason, price fixing, conspiracy….all forms of collusion. Now whether DK wants to actually go the lengths necessary to prove collusion and that people broke their TOS in order to win $1 million and thus deny other entrants a chance to win that $1 million, that is a different story. But I’m sure there are some very interested parties paying attention to this right now…namely the entrant that finished in 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc and their respective lawyers.

  • superstars92

    @gordylamb said...

    It really isn’t that difficult to prove – similar to the Posner poker cheating scandal, it comes down to math.

    I’ll leave it to someone smarter than I to run the actual numbers, but ignoring that these people are married, which of course does not help their “we didn’t collude” argument, the odds of two people max entering and having constructed lineups in ways that they did (ie; similar exposure over/under the field for some skill position guys, completely different QB combos) is in the fractions of a fraction of a percent.

    Oh no I get you. If you’ve read my previous posts, I’ve done a lot of math about this.

    However, the thing is, what is the DIFFERENCE between this and previous arguments of collusion (brothers, Mazwa/RagingPhillip – check that one out btw, it’s more obvious) that makes this one more likely to be investigated and them found guilty? I don’t see any difference.

    Even after the RagingPhillip scandal, he was allowed to compete and I believe he took down a DK World Championship afterwards too (live finals), so there was no repurcusions.

    If you guys want to push this further, you have to give a concerte example of why this case is MORE OBVIOUS than previous cases, which obviously have been ignored.

    I can think of one thing, which is the location tracker (same location), but that can be explained. Even if they are always submitting from the same location, they can just say they are married and they go everywhere together.

  • gordylamb

    • 626

      RG Overall Ranking

    @superstars92 said...

    Oh no I get you. If you’ve read my previous posts, I’ve done a lot of math about this.

    However, the thing is, what is the DIFFERENCE between this and previous arguments of collusion (brothers, Mazwa/RagingPhillip – check that one out btw, it’s more obvious) that makes this one more likely to be investigated and them found guilty? I don’t see any difference.

    Even after the RagingPhillip scandal, he was allowed to compete and I believe he took down a DK World Championship afterwards too (live finals), so there was no repurcusions.

    If you guys want to push this further, you have to give a concerte example of why this case is MORE OBVIOUS than previous cases, which obviously have been ignored.

    I can think of one thing, which is the location tracker (same location), but that can be explained. Even if they are always submitting from the same location, they can just say they are married and they go everywhere together.

    Definitely agree that the precedent makes it seem like nothing will happen. I do think this is slightly different than the brothers situation (not fully informed about the other ones) in that these two were just so egregious with how they built their lineups, an added level of publicity given who it is, and the timing with Draftkings planning to go public. It’ll be interesting to see what, if any, action is taken.

    There’s an abundance of evidence that they colluded, but also a lot that they could easily explain away.

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    @gordylamb said...

    I do think this is slightly different than the brothers situation (not fully informed about the other ones) in that these two were just so egregious with how they built their lineups

    Bingo

  • theIrrigator

    • Ranked #84

      RG Tiered Ranking

    @superstars92 said...

    I’m just playing devils’ advocate here, as I am not trying to say this is not collusion (since you guys know I am pretty active on the previous topics over this), so feel free to list your suggestions below. How will you guys (or anyone) actually prove this is collusion, different than previous cases?

    I’m not sure what evidence was provided in any other situation but isnt it pretty obvious when you look at the QB ownership numbers. Instead of generating 300 lineups and him taking 150 and her taking 150 so they both have ownership on all the QB’s, it looks to me like he generated 150 with Brees, Wilson, Wentz and then generated 150 with Allen, Watson, Tannehill. How DK could actually prove that I’m not sure

  • superstars92

    @gordylamb said...

    Definitely agree that the precedent makes it seem like nothing will happen. I do think this is slightly different than the brothers situation (not fully informed about the other ones) in that these two were just so egregious with how they built their lineups, an added level of publicity given who it is, and the timing with Draftkings planning to go public. It’ll be interesting to see what, if any, action is taken.

    There’s an abundance of evidence that they colluded, but also a lot that they could easily explain away.

    How so? The husband can just say I liked these 3 QBs and the wife can be like I saw the QBs my husband picked, and my husband is bad at picking players given his previous track record, so I liked these other 3 QBs. And it’s not against the rules to discuss what plays you like in general (that’s why RG forum is allowed) so that type of interaction is explained away just like that. See it’s pretty easy to explain away unfortunently. Note that I hope all people who are colluding are caught, but I just don’t see it here with enough evidence.

    The main issue is (I explained it previous times in other threads) is the rule of collusion is super ambigious and is impossible to truly enforce, which then also makes it impossible to prove. Maybe this was an intentional thing (to make it ambigious), but because of the way it is, you can’t really truly prove it.

  • gordylamb

    • 626

      RG Overall Ranking

    @superstars92 said...

    How so? The husband can just say I liked these 3 QBs and the wife can be like I saw the QBs my husband picked, and my husband is bad at picking players given his previous track record, so I liked these other 3 QBs. And it’s not against the rules to discuss what plays you like in general (that’s why RG forum is allowed) so that type of interaction is explained away just like that. See it’s pretty easy to explain away unfortunently. Note that I hope all people who are colluding are caught, but I just don’t see it here with enough evidence.

    The main issue is (I explained it previous times in other threads) is the rule of collusion is super ambigious and is impossible to truly enforce, which then also makes it impossible to prove. Maybe this was an intentional thing (to make it ambigious), but because of the way it is, you can’t really truly prove it.

    I think it’s probably pretty similar to multi-accounting in poker (am well versed in these policies from ~a decade ago if you google my username.)

    Can they prove it 100% and say ok this is blatant we are confiscating your money and prepared to take you on in a legal battle that we’re confident we’ll win? Probably not.

    Can they prove it 99.9% and say ok this is blatant we will let you cash out but we are closing your accounts and your business is no longer welcome on our site? Probably, and I think this is the most likely result. Gets people to put down the pitch forks, good PR for DK in showing that they at least somewhat give a shit, and could act as a deterrent against future colluders. For a million dollars, I don’t think it will fully stop it – but I can’t imagine alot of DFS pros will continue colluding for 10-20-50k first prizes if they know account closure is a possible/likely option.

  • superstars92

    @theIrrigator said...

    I’m not sure what evidence was provided in any other situation but isnt it pretty obvious when you look at the QB ownership numbers. Instead of generating 300 lineups and him taking 150 and her taking 150 so they both have ownership on all the QB’s it looks to me like he generated 150 with Brees, Wilson, Wentz and then generated 150 with Allen, Watson, Tannehill. How DK could actually prove that I’m not sure

    Yea see my above post and see that “hypothetical” interaction. It’s just too easy for them to explain away. It sucks because I do believe collusion does happen, but like in every single instance of it, due to both the ambigious nature of the collusion rule (most people on here aren’t aware of what collusion even is, they just think it’s discussion players, but that’s actually not the rule) and due to the fact that everyone here is a third party, we have no actual witnesses.

    Here’s a way to actulaly prove collusion (so I’m playing both sides here). If you find a pattern of which one account always logs in at around the same time and logs out at around the same time as the other account, and you can also prove that one of those two accounts’s user is NOT PRESENT at that same time, that’s collusion. For example, if the wife is clearly on vacation (check her instagram lol), and her account as well as her husband’s account are both being logged in from a different location that’s not the vacation spot, you have your smoking gun.

    I should take my LSAT now rofl!

    (btw the two hypothetical cases I suggested above with both the for collusion and against collusion argument are both actually not really proveable and because the US Justice system is innocent until proven guilty, this makes it much harder – in a civil court there’s more leeway but it’s still tough)

  • thedude404

    • 2015 FanDuel NBA Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @superstars92 said...

    How so? The husband can just say I liked these 3 QBs and the wife can be like I saw the QBs my husband picked, and my husband is bad at picking players given his previous track record, so I liked these other 3 QBs. And it’s not against the rules to discuss what plays you like in general (that’s why RG forum is allowed) so that type of interaction is explained away just like that. See it’s pretty easy to explain away unfortunently. Note that I hope all people who are colluding are caught, but I just don’t see it here with enough evidence.

    The main issue is (I explained it previous times in other threads) is the rule of collusion is super ambigious and is impossible to truly enforce, which then also makes it impossible to prove. Maybe this was an intentional thing (to make it ambigious), but because of the way it is, you can’t really truly prove it.

    Then make all these 150 max contests unlimited entries and be done with it if you arent going to PROPERLY investigate these incidents. If collusion was done in this case, it can be proven. The question is will DK go to the lengths necessary for it to be proven or disproved.

  • superstars92

    @thedude404 said...

    Then make all these 150 max contests unlimited entries and be done with it if you arent going to PROPERLY investigate these incidents. If collusion was done in this case, it can be proven. The question is will DK go to the lengths necessary for it to be proven or disproved.

    Yea I have no idea why it is 150 max anyways when that clearly isn’t really enforced. That is an entirely separate question which I do have the answer for.

  • theIrrigator

    • Ranked #84

      RG Tiered Ranking

    @hammer74 said...

    ?? Do i need to start watching the bachelor for dfs advice? TBH ive never seen 1 episode

    So that’s why some of the RG Hosts like watching it


    Lol

    I haven’t caught an RG show in awhile but I think it was Hoop, Big T, Brit that used to always talk about it a couple years ago. I think one of them was always making fun of the other 2 for watching it

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