INDUSTRY FORUM

Comments

  • SelfCharmer

    Hi,

    I know multi entry has been debated to death since DFS blew up, with “casual” players supposedly put off by pros who max enter etc.

    One suggestion I have is for sites to allow multi entry, but restrict it so that players cannot multi enter the same line up.

    Multi entering tournaments is a skill that maybe some players do not understand etc. so if someone is entering 150 unique LUs, more power to them,it is incredibly difficult to successfully do so over a long period. However, entering the same LU 20 times does not take any more skill. The only hurdle for everyone doing this is the $ cost.

    I understand that it is high risk as well as high reward, and that if that LU flops, they will lose a bunch, but I have heard from many casual players that they are massively put off when they see a “train” of entries – that could easily push them out of the money, or restrict them from a much bigger score.

    I am interested to hear any reasons why enforcing this would be bad for the game (other than less potential entries = less rake for the site) as personally I think this would be a good change for the DFS ecosystem as a whole

  • Mondoman13

    What if someone just created a site that only had single entry tourneys….it’s a free market, play what’s out there or change the paradigm.

  • KindGuy

    Hell no, this idea sucks. I love trains and when I see one, I don’t get bitter; instead I commend the person for being confident enough in their lineup to enter it several times.

    If it was up to me, I would only allow multi entry of the same lineup.

    On Saturday in EPL, someone by the name of “Data Monty” swept almost every contest with a train of the same lineup. It was amazing to see. Took places 2-151 in a large GPP leaving scraps for those behind him/her lol! Love it!

  • SelfCharmer

    @elementasrat said...

    On Saturday in EPL, someone by the name of “Data Monty” swept almost every contest with a train of the same lineup. It was amazing to see. Took places 2-151 in a large GPP leaving scraps for those behind him/her lol! Love it!

    This was the catalyst for me starting this thread…

  • badgerdores

    While I agree it looks cool and feels great if your train dominates a tourney The bigger question is it good for DFS. DataMonty also played that train in the 30K EPL contest taking 1st-25th. I would have come in 4th if he only played that LU once. So I won $150 instead of $750. Not often your LU is Top 5 in a GPP so when it is if happen to be behind a train it sucks. Could be worse though. Craptor would have been 2nd. He beat the entire GPP field except DataMonty so instead of 2nd place and $2000 he won $150.

    Honestly I don’t have a problem with it. I’m sure Dan has discussed this many times on his shows.

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    How many times does someone like that help the field out though, when he completely misses?

    While I’m not taking sides, keep in mind we only notice the trains when they do well, not when they finish out of the money.

  • Bigo1

    It is a trade off between: – Our EV. We all know that trains are EV- on big GPPs, and as bhdevault said, for one train hitting, we will see hundreds missing – Perceptions. Mainly for new players who might be put off when they see a guy taking first 25 to 150 spots with a single line up

    I personally love trains (I know I will beat them long term) but not at the expense of losing players in an already fragile ecosystem

  • dude_abides7

    @bhdevault said...

    How many times does someone like that help the field out though, when he completely misses?

    While I’m not taking sides, keep in mind we only notice the trains when they do well, not when they finish out of the money.

    I don’t think we should always look at these types of things through the singular lens of how it can help/hurt other players’ chances of winning, but rather how MME train play can hurt the overall, long term health of DFS and perspective one has of the industry in totality.

    Just my 2 cents.

  • Razzle11

    @dude_abides7 said...

    I don’t think we should always look at these types of things through the singular lens of how it can help/hurt other players’ chances of winning, but rather how MME train play can hurt the overall, long term health of DFS and perspective one has of the industry in totality.

    Just my 2 cents.

    But the way you state it here, is an even narrower look as to it only “hurts” the overall long term health. When looking at an issue, both sides have to be addressed, not just instantly the hurt it may have.

    Each person has the capability to put more than 1 lineup in a non-single entry contest. Why should the sites dictate how they want those rosters to be? If somebody wants to put 25 teams in the $2 on FD and just wants 1 lineup, its their investment of the $50. While I would agree that I would probably then just put that lineup into the $50 single entry or something, maybe they want the shot at the larger first place, idk their reasoning.

    I have been in the spot where I have had a train of 10-20 lineups jump me and it is painful to see and I definitely get upset, but I force myself to realize that I had the same opportunity, I just choose to make different lineups for each of my entries.

  • dude_abides7

    @Razzle11 said...

    Each person has the capability to put more than 1 lineup in a non-single entry contest. Why should the sites dictate how they want those rosters to be? If somebody wants to put 25 teams in the $2 on FD and just wants 1 lineup, its their investment of the $50.

    I think the reason is right here in your comment. (Which I don’t disagree with in principle by the way).

    If someone is putting 25 LU train into a GPP as “investment” it can be said this goes against the entertainment value of the contest, which is partly why DFS is legal. I don’t think when the exception was made to classify DFS as a ‘skill game’ and not gambling that these legislators believed people would be earning a living off of it.

    Don’t get me wrong, I am not naive. I know that ship sailed a long, long time ago. The same 1-2% of players are going to be the ones that win 95% of the money. They put the time and effort in. They earn it. This is fine. I guess what I am saying is the sites should at least try and create the impression (even if it’s a smokescreen) that the contests aren’t being harvested primarily for “investment” purposes and more try to bolster that DFS is “entertainment” where there is a chance to make some cash.

    The long term growth of DFS would be better served if they created more a perception that everyone has the same shot at winning. (I know this is not true, but once again I am talking about perception) I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with trains. It does not increase anyone’s chances of winning a contest. But I think the industry would be better served in the long run by limiting things like this.

  • SelfCharmer

    For the record, I am trying to address the issue when it comes to the DFS ecosystem as a whole. I completely agree that many people only notice them when they are beaten by one, and there are lots of failing trains that go unnoticed and help out the EV of the “winning” players.

    My point is that for a casual or new player, seeing a 20 team train of the same LU is definitely off-putting, much more so than seeing a user with 20 different LUs which place above them, and that I personally think there is more upside for DFS as a whole (winning players, losing players, new players, casuals and therefore the sites) if they were to limit the amount of identical lineups allowed to be entered.

  • dude_abides7

    @SelfCharmer said...

    My point is that for a casual or new player, seeing a 20 team train of the same LU is definitely off-putting, much more so than seeing a user with 20 different LUs which place above them, and that I personally think there is more upside for DFS as a whole (winning players, losing players, new players, casuals and therefore the sites) if they were to limit the amount of identical lineups allowed to be entered.

    This was my point….well put. I was equating the long term health of DFS with the establishing and retaining a strong casual player base. You have a better chance of that by limiting (to some capacity) what was presented in the OP.

  • Jcicc

    EV aside, I think the bigger issue is that it is a turn-off for the common player.

    If someone is entering a 150 line-up train in a tournament, the general public perception may be that they should be playing a tournament with a higher dollar value. The action looks predatory.

  • makeitra1n

    Where geazy at?actually he’s prob hungover since Indians are leading the series lol

  • DomTwan

    @SelfCharmer said...

    This was the catalyst for me starting this thread…

    150 of the same lineup in a 150 entry max is absurd.

  • DomTwan

    @Bigo1 said...

    We all know that trains are EV- on big GPPs, and as bhdevault said, for one train hitting, we will see hundreds missing – Perceptions

    So much this.

  • KindGuy

    What happens when someone runs a 7 man core in DK NBA and still places in the top spots because their one offs go ham too? Stopping trains of the same lineup isn’t going to solve anything. People regularly win gpps with mini trains that are just permutations of a core.

    This discussion is pointless.

  • pal

    I don’t think it is pointless. I think it points to a serious flaw in the game: Bankroll is a massive weapon in DFS. I do not see in other gambling games, except calcutta auctions. Multi entry, syndicates, trains: all symptoms of this flaw.

  • AlexSonty

    • Blogger of the Month

    On another note, if there is a 1350-man $5 Q to funnel into a $25 GPP of the same sport, is it then profitable to run a train of a cash lineup?

  • snapped

    On nights the Train is just ahead of me and pushing me 49 spots lower than I’d be if it was one line up, I hate the train concept.

    On nights I get a late fraction of a point and jump 50 spots higher rather than just 1 spot because someone had a train right ahead of me, I love the train concept.

    I think it’s just one of those things that it’s impossible to say which way is better because everyone has their own opinions, which are all valid if that’s the individuals preference.

    Personally, I don’t run trains, but I do enter one to start my process and then branch off each line up individually as I manually construct line ups so I would prefer they not add a rule that prevents trains from being entered.

  • DomTwan

    @snapped said...

    Personally, I don’t run trains

    Can’t say the same for myself.

  • Unico10

    • 739

      RG Overall Ranking

    I don’t care about EV or -EV trains are a huge turnoff.

    I have a few… but my more tilting train story is last year when Arrieta pitched his no-no against the Dodgers and the moonshot on DK was still top-heavy…. I finished 2nd… oh no! I finished 12th behind a train… so a few hundreds instead of $7,500.

    As it was stated previously to finish top 10 in a large GPP is very difficult and for the average non-high roller player is very rare and takes skill and an enormous amount of things breaking your way.

    The way I see it, if your lineup is the second or third high scoring lineup in the tournament than one would and should expect to finish in that place. When it doesn’t happen because of trains is tilting on many different levels besides the monetary one.

  • lineupofpeace

    Seems like we should just make every tournament single entry, so people can finally stop complaining.

    Then the prize pools will shrink, the cash lines will rise, and we can all be happy right?

  • dude_abides7

    @lineupofpeace said...

    Seems like we should just make every tournament single entry, so people can finally stop complaining.

    Then the prize pools will shrink, the cash lines will rise, and we can all be happy right?

    There is an argument that it would be a lot more fair and fun this way. ^ However, if your main goal in DFS is to pay your mortgage then I can understand why you might hate it.

  • KindGuy

    It seems like the only people who are against it, are those who have been “burned” by trains before. Yea….. Try again.
    That’s not an excuse. Im being objective since I’ve been burned plenty of times and have never once run a successful train yet I still support it.

    The DFS community is so hard to please. On one hand you have people complaining about mass multinentry and how it benefits high rollers. On the other hand, you have people getting mad because someone was confident enough to run ONE lineup multiple times. Do you guys not understand how hard that is?

  • Unico10

    • 739

      RG Overall Ranking

    @elementasrat said...

    On the other hand, you have people getting mad because someone was confident enough to run ONE lineup multiple times. Do you guys not understand how hard that is?

    If someone is that confident could play the thunderdome or take all the $100 and higher h2h instead of ruining the entertainment value of $3 entry tournaments.

    Just my opinion. And for the record, I am not here saying that trains should be disallowed, just that I hate them

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