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  • Mphst18

    From your website on community guidelines:

    “Team-building a lineup, or a set of complementary lineups which serve to work together, to execute a strategy that may create any unfair advantage over individual play”

    I do not understand how you do not classify what is going on as an example of the above situation.

    Myself and anyone else that plays as individual is at an unfair advantage as one individual only has so much time to research and utilize data to build a lineup, while these 3 have 3 times the amount of time and then build identical lineups to create an unfair advantage against individual play. They don’t even bother to differentiate the way the lineups are entered (all in the exact same order).

    The only other case that could be made is that one of the 3 makes the lineup and the other three copy it but that isn’t going to help your “Skill” verbatim around the legality of the sport.

    While these individuals provide much more rake than I do to you guys they are clearly violating your rules. Are you going to do anything about it?

    https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/26588856?uc=470716397

    https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/26834127?uc=471339295

    https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/27224326?uc=471315951

    RG: if you had to vote who do you think builds the lineups and who do you think copies and pastes and enters them (Assani, AEjones, Wdrzich)

    Its not about winning or losing, its that these individuals and others like them are going to lead to the end of DFS.

  • Zieg30

    @Heterodox said...

    My thinking is that if the sites can’t or won’t stop/prevent this, then they should bring it into the light by making teams/syndicates identify themselves.

    Though I am not overly perturbed by individuals sharing lineups with friends and/or other players, I agree 100% with the notion that those doing so regularly should be forced to identify themselves as doing so.

    Though I don’t play H2Hs myself, I can imagine that one might want to avoid playing against assani and his lineups every night, and one should be able to have the means to avoid doing so. If assani is sharing his lineups with friends and/or other players every night, one cannot know who to avoid playing in the name of avoiding him. That seems wrong to me. Transparency is key, even for activities that don’t necessarily subvert policies/rules.

  • AssaniFisher

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    @Zieg30 said...

    Transparency is key, even for activities that don’t necessarily subvert policies/rules.

    Agree 100% with this. I’ve said much of this before, but the following should provide you with the transparency you desire….

    -I do discuss DFS heavily with Aaron Jones and we use the exact same (publicly available) sources for our projections

    -wdzrich is a mutual friend, him and Aaron work a bit together, I rarely work with him

    -Sometimes we end up on the same LU, most of the time we don’t. Its more likely that we end up on the same LU when we’re all in the same location and can talk strategy in person because when we don’t initially agree about a certain player then we are sure to get into a big discussion about him.

    -Most weeks we are not in the same location(wdrzich lives in Indy, I’m in San Diego, Aaron is in Toronto). This past week we were all in Nashville for the NFL kickoff bash.

    -I played cash games in 10 different slates this past week: FD Thursday, DK Thursday, FD Sunday main, DK Sunday main, DK Sunday late slate, FD Sunday late slate, DK primetime slate, FD primetime slate, DK MNF slate, FD MNF slate.

    -I’m not going to go back and double check this, but I’m pretty sure I ended up on the same LU as aejones or wdrzich in just one of those 10 slates(DK Sunday main). At the very most, it was 2 out of 10.

    -Given that we use the exact same sources and approach DFS in very similar manners, you should probably expect us to end up on the same LU somewhere around 10-15% of the time. Obviously some weeks it will be higher when our sources think that one team is clearly optimal for a bunch of the slates. In MMA, for example, we probably end up on the same team 75% of the time because our research methods are so incredibly similar and there aren’t that many overall options in MMA.

    -I don’t mind threads like this because I think transparency is important, but I really wish all the details were provided. Us ending up on the same LU in one out of 10 slates paints a much different picture than only mentioning the one slate where we ended up on the same team.

    -OP says “Myself and anyone else that plays as individual is at an unfair (dis)advantage”, yet he is the one that chooses to take our HU games. He has taken our HU games often in the past. If he believes he is at an unfair disadvantage then why keep playing us? To me, this clearly demonstrates that he does not believe what he is saying about being at an unfair disadvantage.

  • bigticket

    @AssaniFisher said...

    Agree 100% with this. I’ve said much of this before, but the following should provide you with 100% transparency….

    -I do discuss DFS heavily with Aaron Jones and we use the exact same (publicly available) sources for our projections

    -wdzrich is a mutual friend, him and Aaron work a bit together, I rarely work with him

    -Sometimes we end up on the same LU, most of the time we don’t. Its more likely that we end up on the same LU when we’re all in the same location and can talk strategy in person because when we don’t initially agree about a certain player then we are sure to get into a big discussion about him.

    -Most weeks we are not in the same location(wdrzich lives in Indy, I’m in San Diego, Aaron is in Toronto). This past week we were all in Nashville for the NFL kickoff bash.

    -I played cash games in 10 different slates this past week: FD Thursday, DK Thursday, FD Sunday main, DK Sunday main, DK Sunday late slate, FD Sunday late slate, DK primetime slate, FD primetime slate, DK MNF slate, FD MNF slate.

    -I’m not going to go back and double check this, but I’m pretty sure I ended up on the same LU as aejones or wdrzich in just one of those 10 slates(DK Sunday main). At the very most, it was 2 out of 10.

    -Given that we use the exact same sources and approach DFS in very similar manners, you should probably expect us to end up on the same LU somewhere around 10-15% of the time. Obviously some weeks it will be higher when our sources think that one team is clearly optimal for a bunch of the slates. In MMA, for example, we probably end up on the same team 75% of the time because our research methods are so incredibly similar and there aren’t that many overall options in MMA.

    -I don’t mind threads like this because I think transparency is important, but I really wish all the details were provided. Us ending up on the same LU in one out of 10 slates paints a much different picture than only mentioning the one slate where we ended up on the same team.

    -OP says “Myself and anyone else that plays as individual is at an unfair (dis)advantage”, yet he is the one that chooses to take our HU games. He has taken our HU games often in the past. If he believes he is at an unfair disadvantage then why keep playing us? To me, this clearly demonstrates that he does not believe what he is saying about being at an unfair disadvantage.

    Assani you spout so much bs and lies that your convoluted thinking believes that what you do isnt cheating and unethical.

  • AssaniFisher

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    @bigticket said...

    Assani you spout so much bs and lies that your convoluted thinking believes that what you do isnt cheating and unethical.

    What part of my post do you believe was a lie?

  • bigticket

    Hey lets just focus on the unethical. #11 overall ranked which is great good for you but tonight as an example you chose to assert your multi entry presence in a lousy quarter arcade and at the same time playing the 5k thunderdome entry. Do you really need the money that bad that you gotta play the quarter arcade or just have no shame ? Which is it?

  • AssaniFisher

    • 74

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    @bigticket said...

    Hey lets just focus on the unethical. #11 overall ranked which is great good for you but tonight as an example you chose to assert your multi entry presence in a lousy quarter arcade and at the same time playing the 5k thunderdome entry. Do you really need the money that bad that you gotta play the quarter arcade or just have no shame ? Which is it?

    So are you taking back your claim that I’ve lied?

    I already addressed the ethics of pros entering the quarter arcade in a previous thread, so I’ll copy and paste it here for you:

    https://rotogrinders.com/threads/who-should-be-playing-gpps-less-than-5-where-top-prize-is-10k-1409178?page=1#reply-1409289

    I think the overall topic of this thread is a very worthwhile discussion. I like the idea of barring the top ~50 pros from playing the quarter arcade. I like the changes both sites have made in recent months to have more beginner’s costs and restrictions on pros entering low stakes contests. I think its an interesting and somewhat admirable stance for a top pro to refrain from playing low stakes. With that said…

    I think its ridiculous to even raise the question of whether its the sites responsibility or an honor code question. Of course its the sites responsibility. Due to the low cost of the entry fees, I think people might be underestimating the % of a pro’s income that comes from low stakes(the GPPs mentioned in this thread + $5 and below cash games). With the increasingly tougher competition and the lack of a continued rake % decrease past the $500 level on DraftKings, many of the high stakes contests that go off result in every player being -EV. I’m totally guessing here and would welcome anyone who has data to correct me, but I would say the top 50 pros are expected to make an average of $150k in 2016 and $15,000 of that comes from low stakes. In 2015, before some of the changes were made, low stakes probably made up an even higher percentage. Making a moral judgment about another person because they make $150k and won’t give up $15k in the hope that it makes a discernible difference in the low stakes economy of an online game(which it won’t btw) is utterly absurd imo. I can’t take a person seriously if they legitimately entertain this viewpoint, and I don’t think they are worth listening to when it comes to having a conversation about proper rules and regulations for DFS.

  • deactivated51600

    @bigticket said...

    Hey lets just focus on the unethical. #11 overall ranked which is great good for you but tonight as an example you chose to assert your multi entry presence in a lousy quarter arcade and at the same time playing the 5k thunderdome entry. Do you really need the money that bad that you gotta play the quarter arcade or just have no shame ? Which is it?

    Not to come across as playing devil’s advocate, but possibly the entries are getting added into the QA as a result of hitting the ‘Add +1 to All’ button and he is not necessarily targeting the QA? I’d like to think this is the case.

  • AssaniFisher

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    The OP in this thread accuses me and my friends of breaking site rules(guidelines). I come in here and give a long response to the allegation, being as honest as I possibly can about everything we’ve done.

    The response is someone accusing me of lying and spouting BS. I then ask what specifically he thinks I was lying about.

    The response is to call me unethical for the low stakes games I play, which is a complete non-sequitur. I copy and paste a long response I already made regarding that issue.

    The response is to call me a narcissist.

    All of this criticism comes from people hiding behind anonymous screen names with nothing to lose. And after I respond, theres always another means of attacking me that you can jump to. Its really easy to do that. Its not easy to come on here and respond to it all, which is probably why every other top pro has stopped posting on this forum.

    Its one of the reasons why I suggested Mphst18 go on the Joe Ingram podcast- having to put your real self out there for the public to see isn’t easy, and I think going through that would be good for him.

  • shamrock77s

    @AssaniFisher said...

    -I’m not going to go back and double check this, but I’m pretty sure I ended up on the same LU as aejones or wdrzich in just one of those 10 slates(DK Sunday main). At the very most, it was 2 out of 10.

    -Given that we use the exact same sources and approach DFS in very similar manners, you should probably expect us to end up on the same LU somewhere around 10-15% of the time. Obviously some weeks it will be higher when our sources think that one team is clearly optimal for a bunch of the slates.

    So if we should ‘expect us to end up on the same lineup around 10-15% of the time”, how often should people expect all 3 of you to end up with the exact same lineup…built top to bottom the exact same way, even slotted the same way?
    And how do you believe that this is not collusion?
    Using a similar projection system is one thing. There is literally no variance here for any of the three of you.

  • AssaniFisher

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    @shamrock77s said...

    So if we should ‘expect us to end up on the same lineup around 10-15% of the time”, how often should people expect all 3 of you to end up with the exact same lineup…built top to bottom the exact same way, even slotted the same way?
    And how do you believe that this is not collusion?
    Using a similar projection system is one thing. There is literally no variance here for any of the three of you.

    I would guess that most of the time we’re on the same NFL LU it will be slotted in the same order. I believe DK automatically alphabetizes the players within each position, but even if they didn’t we’d still probably have the same order due to how our LU optimizer presents the LU to us.

    “And how do you believe that this is not collusion?”

    I’m not sure what you’re asking….are you saying that having the same order proves collusion? If so, I think thats really silly. It would be trivially easy for me to start changing the order in all my LUs so that whenever Aaron and I ended up on the same LU we’d have a different order. But that wouldn’t actually change anything other than making it less transparent when we do have the same team, and I feel as if the community has urged me and other pros to be transparent. If Aaron and I end up on the same team, I want it to be easy to see because I’m not trying to hide the fact that we end up on the same team sometimes.

  • Mphst18

    @AssaniFisher said...

    -wdzrich is a mutual friend, him and Aaron work a bit together, I rarely work with him

    I guess we have very different definitions of the word a bit as I probably have over 100 examples of them with identical lineups over multiple sports and multiple slates.

    Yes I choose to take your teams games, dauts teams games , and other colluders/syndicates for three main reasons (with exception to nascar when I take all the teams games it’s a low levels I never take all three at 1000, 500, etc cause individual play is at a disadvantage to team play)

    1, to have factual evidence for my claims so I don’t have to hear your boy cried wolf analogy and those of some RG staff that try to push a narrative that the things I state are loosely based and purely speculative. Yes this is negative EV but I don’t hold EV As the gold standard like you and others.

    2. Usually I take the team members games at low stakes to again have facts but also to provide the beginners and unsuspecting at low level stakes with one less chance of having to play people on an uneven playing field and allow them a chance to enjoy dfs not be instantly turned off from it due largely to actions like yours and others.

    3. For sports like nascar especially vs aejones/will and the rob bob whose also part of the team I think I am better and know all their lineups will be the same.

    However even if I choose to play that doesn’t mean I or anyone else who follows their rules and conducts individual play (don’t need to operate in grey areas or wait for the sites to tell me to stop doing something I know is unethical or very likely to be against their rules to gain EV or proclaim to be a Game theory expert) isn’t at a time and information disadvantage to teams like yours and others.

    What about all those other people who don’t know and choose you three all to find out it’s really one lineup under three different names, there goes their variance, oh well tough luck for them hope they keep playing dfs

  • Mphst18

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I would guess that most of the time we’re on the same NFL LU it will be slotted in the same order. I believe DK automatically alphabetizes the players within each position, but even if they didn’t we’d still probably have the same order due to how our LU optimizer presents the LU to us.

    For someone who wants to be transparent you sure are leaving out that your optimizer didn’t present you Yeldon in the flex but when the news came out at 11:30 or so (post your games being posted) you all got on the horn and swapped him to flex.

    You go ahead and attack this as speculation but I think those with knowledge of dfs can make their own assertation around whether your optimizer gave you yeldon pre the news and then if you all didn’t together decide to utilize yeldon in the flex.

  • Mphst18

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I like the idea of barring the top ~50 pros from playing the quarter arcade.

    This is why people have a hard time relating to you or finding you likeable. You say one thing but then people see you doing the complete opposite and multi entering the quarter arcade. They say to themselves why cant he just not enter the quarter arcade.

    I’m not out here saying don’t team play, don’t copy identical lineups time and time again, don’t collude, don’t circumvent entry limits and then behind my words doing all those actions.

    Yes i can easily find all and any loopholes (even those some haven’t exposed yet) to exploit or give my lineups to friends after having a brief discussion around who do you like but I choose not to, I choose to let my words and actions be aligned.

  • jecarl2

    Part of dfs is games selection, mphst went out of his way to play these guys. And don’t tell me it was because he wanted to protect the beginners in order to prove collusion, that’s complete bs. I bet this thread doesn’t even exist had he won.

  • Mphst18

    @jecarl2 said...

    Part of dfs is games selection, mphst went out of his way to play these guys. And don’t tell me it was because he wanted to protect the beginners in order to prove collusion, that’s complete bs. I bet this thread doesn’t even exist had he won.

    I’ve got wins and losses vs the teams it’s irrelrvent. The post was up before the games had finished when the majority of the team was shown, I believe before halftime of the 4:30 games(all but Bennett who could be figured out).

    Why wouldn’t I choose their larger H2H games then if it was selection instead of taking Saahilsud 1000, 500, and 200 in the afternoon slate.

    Why do I have 100s of these guys low level stakes games when 95 percent of my H2H play is in the 1000, 500, 200 level. The other 5 percent is grabbing these guys and other guys H2H at low levels where they shouldn’t be. I have 0 percent low level stakes vs guys who no one knows or are beginners

  • jhorst52

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    Can we please focus on the guys who actually are cheating (colluding to gain more than max entry limits). As opposed to those who are kind enough to take their time to post on a forum explaining and defending such allegations. Seems like Assani is taking a lot of heat for something that is common in the industry (even among RG guys) and he’s the one taking the heat because he’s the one nice enough to speak out and be truthful of his practices. Sharp players will often times land on the same plays – that will never change. Efforts would be much better used focused towards stopping those colluding in small leagues and tournaments to gain a REAL advantage.

  • AWoo

    @jhorst52 said...

    Can we please focus on the guys who actually are cheating (colluding to gain more than max entry limits). As opposed to those who are kind enough to take their time to post on a forum explaining and defending such allegations. Seems like Assani is taking a lot of heat for something that is common in the industry (even among RG guys) and he’s the one taking the heat because he’s the one nice enough to speak out and be truthful of his practices. Sharp players will often times land on the same plays – that will never change. Efforts would be much better used focused towards stopping those colluding in small leagues and tournaments to gain a REAL advantage.

    Jhorst nailed it. Collusion is the bigger issue here.

  • AssaniFisher

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    @Mphst18 said...

    This is why people have a hard time relating to you or finding you likeable. You say one thing but then people see you doing the complete opposite and multi entering the quarter arcade. They say to themselves why cant he just not enter the quarter arcade.

    I’ve probably made 100+ real-life friends through DFS, and I’ve never had any negative interactions at a live event. The only people who feel this way about me are anonymous internet message board posters/twitter accounts. I’ve been around the internet long enough to know which group actually matters.

    I have never done the opposite of what I say in regards to the quarter arcade. I’ve said that I think its a good idea to ban the top ~50 pros from playing the quarter arcade; I have never said that anyone should self-ban themselves. To give an analogy, imagine a NFL team that thinks that the game would be better if they disallowed the opportunity to go for a 2pt conversion after touchdowns. If/when they vote on rule changes in the offseason, this team’s representatives can vote for no more 2pt conversions…however, it would be absolutely absurd to expect them to not go for any 2pt conversions in the meantime. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5-iJUuPWis

  • Mphst18

    @jhorst52 said...

    Can we please focus on the guys who actually are cheating (colluding to gain more than max entry limits). As opposed to those who are kind enough to take their time to post on a forum explaining and defending such allegations. Seems like Assani is taking a lot of heat for something that is common in the industry (even among RG guys) and he’s the one taking the heat because he’s the one nice enough to speak out and be truthful of his practices. Sharp players will often times land on the same plays – that will never change. Efforts would be much better used focused towards stopping those colluding in small leagues and tournaments to gain a REAL advantage.

    I don’t know what world you live in but he majority of the population lives in a world where honesty (while respected) does not exonerate someone from a crime regardless if he/she is the only one doing it or others are doing it.

    He says “In MMA, for example, we probably end up on the same team 75% of the time because our research methods are so incredibly similar and there aren’t that many overall options in MMA.”

    But in his own VLOG he states for MMA I just copy whatever Aarons lineup is.

    Everyone who has done it gets called out, assani, aejones, therobbob, wzdrich, chipotle addict, papagates, condia, 1ucor, daut/MIR, the list goes on and on.

  • AssaniFisher

    • 74

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    @Mphst18 said...

    to have factual evidence for my claims so I don’t have to hear your boy cried wolf analogy and those of some RG staff that try to push a narrative that the things I state are loosely based and purely speculative. Yes this is negative EV but I don’t hold EV As the gold standard like you and others.

    You linked to $285 worth of contests in the OP. We were all sitting $5 Heads Ups, so you could’ve accomplished the same thing for $15. Or you could’ve entered one big 50/50 and seen all 3 of our LUs. I maintain my position that you playing us for this high of an amount proves that you didn’t believe you were at an unfair disadvantage. Nobody risks $285 when they truly believe they are at an unfair disadvantage.

  • sethayates

    @shamrock77s said...

    o if we should ‘expect us to end up on the same lineup around 10-15% of the time”, how often should people expect all 3 of you to end up with the exact same lineup…built top to bottom the exact same way, even slotted the same way?

    To be clear, anyone who plays the same lineup properly will automatically have it slotted in the same order. DK automatically puts your lineup in alphabetical order by position. If you are using the flex position properly (your last player to start in that spot) then your lineup would be in the same order as anyone else who did it properly.

    The only way it won’t be in the exact same order is if you have two players who play the same position and start at the same time. In that case, there’s a 50% chance it will be slotted in the same order.

  • Mphst18

    @sethayates said...

    The only way it won’t be in the exact same order is if you have two players who play the same position and start at the same time. In that case, there’s a 50% chance it will be slotted in the same order.

    All three RBS started at 1 in this example, I believe DK then orders your RB selections in Alpha order but the flex remains with who you put there, not positive on this.

  • ponzicrash

    @AssaniFisher said...

    You linked to $285 worth of contests in the OP. We were all sitting $5 Heads Ups, so you could’ve accomplished the same thing for $15. Or you could’ve entered one big 50/50 and seen all 3 of our LUs. I maintain my position that you playing us for this high of an amount proves that you didn’t believe you were at an unfair disadvantage. Nobody risks $285 when they truly believe they are at an unfair disadvantage.

    First off, its nonsense that you can’t be doing anything wrong just because the man thinks he can beat you.

    Seemingly absent from your explanation is whether or not you have financial arrangements with each other.

    The saddest part to me is that these guys know DK cares so little that they will fire off the same lineup on 3 accounts without even thinking twice about it.

  • Mphst18

    @AssaniFisher said...

    You linked to $285 worth of contests in the OP. We were all sitting $5 Heads Ups, so you could’ve accomplished the same thing for $15. Or you could’ve entered one big 50/50 and seen all 3 of our LUs. I maintain my position that you playing us for this high of an amount proves that you didn’t believe you were at an unfair disadvantage. Nobody risks $285 when they truly believe they are at an unfair disadvantage.

    I guess nobody doesn’t include you seeing how once again out of one side of your mouth you say one thing but out of another side of your mouth you say something else.

    45 min mark and yes you would be at a disadvantage against steph curry in a free throw shooting contest and you are willing to wager $10K which is greater than $285.

    https://rotogrinders.com/articles/assanifisher-vlog-edition-5-886418

    In this same video you can hear about how FD has a conference call asking him for insight on their rules (SMH)

  • Jcb890

    @Mphst18 said...

    In this same video you can hear about how FD has a conference call asking him for insight on their rules (SMH)

    What a joke. Unfortunately, the joke is on all of us.

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