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  • Mphst18

    From your website on community guidelines:

    “Team-building a lineup, or a set of complementary lineups which serve to work together, to execute a strategy that may create any unfair advantage over individual play”

    I do not understand how you do not classify what is going on as an example of the above situation.

    Myself and anyone else that plays as individual is at an unfair advantage as one individual only has so much time to research and utilize data to build a lineup, while these 3 have 3 times the amount of time and then build identical lineups to create an unfair advantage against individual play. They don’t even bother to differentiate the way the lineups are entered (all in the exact same order).

    The only other case that could be made is that one of the 3 makes the lineup and the other three copy it but that isn’t going to help your “Skill” verbatim around the legality of the sport.

    While these individuals provide much more rake than I do to you guys they are clearly violating your rules. Are you going to do anything about it?

    https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/26588856?uc=470716397

    https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/26834127?uc=471339295

    https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/27224326?uc=471315951

    RG: if you had to vote who do you think builds the lineups and who do you think copies and pastes and enters them (Assani, AEjones, Wdrzich)

    Its not about winning or losing, its that these individuals and others like them are going to lead to the end of DFS.

  • AssaniFisher

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    @ponzicrash said...

    First off, its nonsense that you can’t be doing anything wrong just because the man thinks he can beat you.

    Seemingly absent from your explanation is whether or not you have financial arrangements with each other.

    The saddest part to me is that these guys know DK cares so little that they will fire off the same lineup on 3 accounts without even thinking twice about it.

    I am suggesting that he doesn’t believe what hes actually saying(i.e. hes trolling). If he thought he was at an unfair disadvantage then why would he play?

    I have never had any financial arrangements with wdrzich. To the best of my memory I’ve made only 2 swaps(or financial arrangements of any kind) with Aaron- we swapped 10% in the FD Week 2 $25k last year and swapped 5% of my 2 entries for 10% of his 1 entry in the DK NFL Live Final last year.

  • AssaniFisher

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    @Mphst18 said...

    I guess nobody doesn’t include you seeing how once again out of one side of your mouth you say one thing but out of another side of your mouth you say something else.

    45 min mark and yes you would be at a disadvantage against steph curry in a free throw shooting contest and you are willing to wager $10K which is greater than $285.

    https://rotogrinders.com/articles/assanifisher-vlog-edition-5-886418

    In this same video you can hear about how FD has a conference call asking him for insight on their rules (SMH)

    Theres a difference between being at a disadvantage(while getting to meet one of your sports heroes) and being at an UNFAIR disadvantage(while playing an internet game with no human interaction). Plenty of people would be willing to do the former; Nobody would knowingly be a part of the latter imo.

  • AssaniFisher

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    @Jcb890 said...

    What a joke. Unfortunately, the joke is on all of us.

    Your post seems to insinuate the these discussions benefitted me. This couldn’t be farther from the truth.

    The main topic of our discussion with FD was pros sitting low stakes(it occurred right after the discussions I“ve had with RayOfHope). Similar to my thoughts on DK’s quarter arcade, I told FD that I very much supported them putting a limit on the amount of contests people can enter at the low stakes. A few weeks later they added the rule about a maximum of 250 contests per slate at the $10 buy-in and below level. FD didn’t change any rules that increased my EV in any way.

    edit: Actually thats not completely true….FD didn’t have the bulk entry option back then and I told them that it was way too time consuming to enter contests on their site. They have now added a bulk entry feature, and this does indirectly increase my EV(by saving me time, which I can better use focusing on LU building) .

  • ponzicrash

    I’ve played against SNG colluders that I could beat. Doesn’t mean they weren’t gaining an unfair advantage.

    Ultimately I blame to sites for not moving to a dynamic product and instead sticking with a system that rewards syndicates.

  • Jcb890

    @AssaniFisher said...

    Your post seems to insinuate the these discussions benefitted me. This couldn’t be farther from the truth.

    The main topic of our discussion with FD was pros sitting low stakes(it occurred right after the discussions I“ve had with RayOfHope). Similar to my thoughts on DK’s quarter arcade, I told FD that I very much supported them putting a limit on the amount of contests people can enter at the low stakes. A few weeks later they added the rule about a maximum of 250 contests per slate at the $10 buy-in and below level. FD didn’t change any rules that increased my EV in any way.

    edit: Actually thats not completely true….FD didn’t have the bulk entry option back then and I told them that it was way too time consuming to enter contests on their site. They have now added a bulk entry feature, and this does indirectly increase my EV(by saving me time, which I can better use focusing on LU building) .

    It does not and I apologize if it came off that way. My post was mostly directed at FanDuel and not you directly. In my opinion, it is a joke that FD would consult “pros” in order to make things fair for all and a good platform for all. You seem to at least have an idea what is good and what is bad, that is great. I agree with some of the comments you have made in this thread. So, maybe you aren’t a terrible person for FD to poll in this instance.

    However, all of these “pros” have shown that they are willing to operate in grey areas or even break the rules in order to make money. They should not be asked by the companies how they can improve their product for small-stakes small-money players. Why? They simply do not care and have already shown a penchant to bend or break the rules to benefit themselves. As has been hashed out many, many times, it is on the DFS sites to police the players, not the other way around. Expecting people who have been using all of these rules and guidelines to their advantage as a “voice of the people” in order to have fair play across the board is a fool’s errand.

  • AssaniFisher

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    @ponzicrash said...

    I’ve played against SNG colluders that I could beat. Doesn’t mean they weren’t gaining an unfair advantage.

    Mphst18 doesn’t believe that though. Here was part of his earlier post:

    “to have factual evidence for my claims so I don’t have to hear your boy cried wolf analogy and those of some RG staff that try to push a narrative that the things I state are loosely based and purely speculative. Yes this is negative EV but I don’t hold EV As the gold standard like you and others.”

    He is claiming that we are cheating in a way that makes it negative EV for him to play us, yet he plays us at $285 worth of contests. He says he is doing this to gather evidence. However, he could gather the same evidence without risking anywhere near that amount of money. Therefore, my only conclusion is that he doesn’t actually believe we are cheating. He is just trolling.

  • pal

    Assani, you really think this is a troll job? You think that these issues are trivial? That he is making this argument for his own entertainment? WHat about the guy who brought about all the issues about you on 2+2? Another troll?

    I respect that you are on these forums addressing these topics, but I’d rather see a valid defense over attacking the person making the argument. These concerns are valid, worth having for the long term viability of DFS.

  • deactivated51600

    @sethayates said...

    To be clear, anyone who plays the same lineup properly will automatically have it slotted in the same order. DK automatically puts your lineup in alphabetical order by position. If you are using the flex position properly (your last player to start in that spot) then your lineup would be in the same order as anyone else who did it properly.

    The only way it won’t be in the exact same order is if you have two players who play the same position and start at the same time. In that case, there’s a 50% chance it will be slotted in the same order.

    Seth, I am curious to know your opinion on players using multi accounts to circumvent entry limits in DK events. For example, would someone who did this to have 4 entries in a 3-Max event be out of line? Sim example, would it be out of line if someone did this to have 153 entries in a 150 max event?

  • sethayates

    @whoisjohngalt said...

    Seth, I am curious to know your opinion on players using multi accounts to circumvent entry limits in DK events. For example, would someone who did this to have 4 entries in a 3-Max event be out of line? Sim example, would it be out of line if someone did this to have 153 entries in a 150 max event?

    1. I’m against people using multiple accounts to circumvent entry limits
    2. That’s not what is happening here.

    This is three people who work together building their teams. If that’s a problem then everyone who posts in the “NFL Week XX Thread” should be banned.

    To my knowledge Assani and his friends don’t work together to circumvent the entry limit. They are all real people ( I met them in Nashville this weekend). If they were colluding to circumvent entry limits they wouldn’t be entering the same lineup (which is the complaint in this thread). In a GPP you want a unique lineup. It would never make sense to put the same lineup into a 3-Max 9x unless you were positive it would win 1st.

    Assani isn’t the only person who teams up with people to share research. I’m in at least 8 Google Chat Groups, About 15 different Slack chats and several Group Messages on Twitter.

    I don’t hate on Asanni for sharing research. I’m doing the same thing. Before DK changed their rules I would often borrow a lineup from a friend on nights I’m running short on time. I would usually change one or two things but if I happened to be in Assani’s group and getting a lineup from a Top 20 ranked player I would probably have just played whatever he tells me.

    In short, I won’t hate on Assani for joining an advice sharing group. I’m not focused on what others are doing. I spend my time researching and trying to find an edge. I do wish more of these top guys would have the kindness not to run the same lineup in small 50/50s where it is so obvious. There are only so many contests on any site though. Especially in a sport like NFL (only 17 Weeks) they have limited opportunity to make money.

    If the group agrees on an optimal lineup why should one of the people who contributed to that lineup be asked to play a less optimal lineup?

  • deactivated51600

    My question was unrelated to the bickering going on above. It was a specific question to you. Curiously, on twitter in April you stated that you also use DK account Feistofwinterveil. Is this accurate?

  • sethayates

    @whoisjohngalt said...

    My question was unrelated to the bickering going on above. It was a specific question to you. Curiously, on twitter in April you stated that you also use DK account Feistofwinterveil. Is this accurate?

    Do you have a link to that? I only have one account. I’ve never heard of that account. You aren’t the only person to ever ask me that. Someone on Twitter also asked me if I was associated with that account so I’m curious where that comes from.

  • Mphst18

    @AssaniFisher said...

    Mphst18 doesn’t believe that though. Here was part of his earlier post:

    “to have factual evidence for my claims so I don’t have to hear your boy cried wolf analogy and those of some RG staff that try to push a narrative that the things I state are loosely based and purely speculative. Yes this is negative EV but I don’t hold EV As the gold standard like you and others.”

    He is claiming that we are cheating in a way that makes it negative EV for him to play us, yet he plays us at $285 worth of contests. He says he is doing this to gather evidence. However, he could gather the same evidence without risking anywhere near that amount of money. Therefore, my only conclusion is that he doesn’t actually believe we are cheating. He is just trolling.

    Edit

  • deactivated51600

    @sethayates said...

    Do you have a link to that? I only have one account. I’ve never heard of that account. You aren’t the only person to ever ask me that. Someone on Twitter also asked me if I was associated with that account so I’m curious where that comes from.

    Thanks. I appreciate the clarification. You can simply go to twitter and type ‘feistofwinterveil’ into the search and you will see the same. Probably a good example of why people need to be super careful about what they joke about on social media nowadays. I was curious who that person was as I noticed them crushing a lot of events lately. Not on RG so I searched twitter.

    User @DFSdarthfader tweeted out: “Anyone know who ‘feistofwinterveil’ is on DK? Posted a bunch of 100 and 50 H2Hs. 100s already scooped (I got 1). Not sure if I should get 50”

    You responded: “@DFSDarthFader that’s my new acct that just does Coors stacks in cash”

    You further responded: “@DFSDarthFader This new acct is “my friend” I get 35% rake back. #Kidding #Maybe”

  • sethayates

    @whoisjohngalt said...

    Thanks. I appreciate the clarification. You can simply go to twitter and type ‘feistofwinterveil’ into the search and you will see the same. Probably a good example of why people need to be super careful about what they joke about on social media nowadays. I was curious who that person was as I noticed them crushing a lot of events lately. Not on RG so I searched twitter.

    User @DFSdarthfader tweeted out: “Anyone know who ‘feistofwinterveil’ is on DK? Posted a bunch of 100 and 50 H2Hs. 100s already scooped (I got 1). Not sure if I should get 50”

    You responded: “@DFSDarthFader that’s my new acct that just does Coors stacks in cash”

    You further responded: “@DFSDarthFader This new acct is “my friend” I get 35% rake back. #Kidding #Maybe”

    I actually went to Twitter and searched. I see what you are talking about.

    I was just making a joke. I didn’t realize people would take that seriously.

    https://twitter.com/DFSDarthFader/status/723525613131317250

    I figured people would get the joke. The acct name ends in Veil as in Vale Colorado (Hence, Coors stacks). I know, dumb joke.

    Whoever is the real feistofwinterveil has obviously been verified. They won $100K last week. There’s no way to take that kind of money off DK without getting it wired to your bank account.

    https://twitter.com/DFSgold1/status/773517005454311424

  • rgreuli

    Couple of quick rants on this post: There are friends sharing lineups, Twitter feeds that discuss lineup info and several Facebook pages where the members discuss lineup construction and am sure those members have exact lineups as well and really see no difference between the three methods. Also, in America we have freedom of choice so if Assani or any other people wants to join a quarter arcade that is their right. Unfortunately a lot of people in this day and age when things don’t go their way, spend a lot of time finding excuses and reasons why things didn’t turn out. Instead of wasting time venting about how the system cheated you, spend your time on research that Assani says and build better lineups so that you can beat them. If you don’t think you have the time to beat top levels players don’t play them. This site makes it real easy to see the skill set of about 35,000 individuals.

  • Mphst18

    @rgreuli said...

    spend your time on research that Assani says and build better lineups

    And thus there is the Rub to team play over individual play and its advantage.

  • thx4urchips

    This guy has way too much time on his hands. Less time investigating, more time building better lineups.

  • AssaniFisher

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    @pal said...

    Assani, you really think this is a troll job? You think that these issues are trivial? That he is making this argument for his own entertainment? WHat about the guy who brought about all the issues about you on 2+2? Another troll?

    I respect that you are on these forums addressing these topics, but I’d rather see a valid defense over attacking the person making the argument. These concerns are valid, worth having for the long term viability of DFS.

    Yes I absolutely believe that both him and the 2p2 guy were trolls. But I also definitely believe these are legitimate issues….that is why I take so much time to post in these threads- I think its paramount that we have good people leading the crusade to catch cheaters. Again, this is why I suggested Mphst18(and the 2p2 guy) go on Joe Ingram’s podcast- I want real people(who will put their name and face out there for all to see) leading the crusade, not internet trolls leading it. It is my belief that if Mphst18 went on the Joe Ingram podcast and had to directly answer all of Joey’s questions, we would all see him for the troll that he is. He is welcome to prove me wrong on this.

  • shamrock77s

    @sethayates said...

    In a GPP you want a unique lineup.

    Yes, in a GPP, you do. In this case, the contests in question were head-to-heads.

  • Figgelbert

    I think we all wish we had a friend like Assani who would help us out with advice and line ups.So I think It’s not unusual that skilled players help people out in Dfs.

    Even on the sites people are on they are exchanging ideas and line ups and I see guys playing the same line ups all the time.Lower level guys.

    People are always forming groups off of the sites to discuss line ups and exchange ides just like Assani and his friends.The difference is he is a top player and wins more.

    Until they change the rules or enforce something why should these groups of people not continue to do what they are doing.

    I’m a lower level player and would love advice from a pro so I can’t blame anyone who gets it personally.

    I just stay away from head to head match ups and try to enter mostly single entry stuff.

    So I personally don’t hold any fault to Assani for what he’s doing with in the rules right now .It may make it harder for me but I realize what I am up against.

    I am sure everyone here who is good is helping someone and I know I personally wish I had the advice of someone good,lol.

  • cherylwin

    Wow—I just started playing DFS baseball 3 weeks ago after my friend convinced me to try Fanduel. I discovered this site today,saw this thread,and I didn’t realize all this crap goes on. May have to withdraw my deposit even though its small enough that I don’t care if I lose BUT I would want to lose square and fair. After reading this thread, I don’t know

  • cutter2225

    @thx4urchips said...

    This guy has way too much time on his hands. Less time investigating, more time building better lineups.

    I can’t speak for the OP but as a guy who has a regular job and 4 kids the “time” to mass research is not regularly available. These players teaming up are potentially putting in 20+ hours a day in research between them. That’s simply not an option for most of us.

  • Zieg30

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    @cutter2225 said...

    I can’t speak for the OP but as a guy who has a regular job and 4 kids the “time” to mass research is not regularly available. These players teaming up are potentially putting in 20+ hours a day in research between them. That’s simply not an option for most of us.

    So should everyone be restricted from spending more time researching than the time available to a parent with a regular job and four kids? Of course not.

    I have done well in some tournaments before specifically because of something I read on rotogrinders. There are players out there who either don’t know about this site or don’t have the time to do any research. Though I have gained an advantage from using this site at those times, I have done nothing wrong.

    Neither have players sharing research in other ways (assuming, as has been discussed previously, entry limits were not circumvented, etc.).

  • Mphst18

    @AssaniFisher said...

    But I also definitely believe these are legitimate issues….that is why I take so much time to post in these threads- I think its paramount that we have good people leading the crusade to catch cheaters

    One of us is out here raising the issues, the other is out here exploiting the issues but saying they care about the issue and will only stop doing such behaviors if the site tells him to.

    One of us is out here catching cheaters with FACTUAL data, the other is out here operating in gray areas cause its +EV or cause hey if the sites allow it without any punishment(as long as i am a top customer) why not

    We both agree that certain people should not be playing in the quarter arcade or microstakes H2H, but one of us does it while the other doesn’t.

    One of us is willing to take a haircut on the amount of money he could be making for the long term viability of dfs, the other wants to maximize EV to make as much money as possible even if it leads to the demise of dfs.

    You can call me whatever name you like it won’t stop me from raising issues that will ultimately lead DFS to not exist cause behaviors like yours and others chase players away until its only people left you don’t want to play against (will proclaim the rake is unbeatable) and then pack up your bags and move onto the next pop up “game” fad to angle shoot/bambooozle/swindle/etc.

  • tgowen

    • Blogger of the Month

    A couple of thoughts regarding some of the information discussed:

    First, I will never understand the thought process of someone who plays upwards of $10k a day, also finding it necessary to enter into the $0.25 contests. However, I think too often we find it very easy to spend other people’s money and ultimately this problem is in the hands of DK. We can’t expect players to police themselves, it’s never going to happen.

    Secondly, the community guidelines have always sounded nice but are in reality just an extension of a moral code of ethics that can’t be enforced. Unless a player is dumb enough to tell a site like DK that they are in fact working as a syndicate (or breaking some other guideline), every problem is going to be a he said/she said battle that is nearly impossible to come to a definitive conclusion about what is going on.

    Again, there are real steps that a site could take to significantly reduce these things from being a problem. However, all of them would be counterproductive to their ultimate goal (make money), and given the current economy of DFS seem less and less likely with each passing week.

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