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  • Mphst18

    From your website on community guidelines:

    “Team-building a lineup, or a set of complementary lineups which serve to work together, to execute a strategy that may create any unfair advantage over individual play”

    I do not understand how you do not classify what is going on as an example of the above situation.

    Myself and anyone else that plays as individual is at an unfair advantage as one individual only has so much time to research and utilize data to build a lineup, while these 3 have 3 times the amount of time and then build identical lineups to create an unfair advantage against individual play. They don’t even bother to differentiate the way the lineups are entered (all in the exact same order).

    The only other case that could be made is that one of the 3 makes the lineup and the other three copy it but that isn’t going to help your “Skill” verbatim around the legality of the sport.

    While these individuals provide much more rake than I do to you guys they are clearly violating your rules. Are you going to do anything about it?

    https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/26588856?uc=470716397

    https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/26834127?uc=471339295

    https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/27224326?uc=471315951

    RG: if you had to vote who do you think builds the lineups and who do you think copies and pastes and enters them (Assani, AEjones, Wdrzich)

    Its not about winning or losing, its that these individuals and others like them are going to lead to the end of DFS.

  • deactivated60279

    Bang Bang. There’s no way to refute that, Assani. One of you guys walks the walk and the other is all talk. Maybe in a rare move for the greater good of the community lets see Assani take the morally right side of things rather than justify his actions based on the negligence of the sites. Being right in one’s actions is what counts not just continuing to say “it’s a worthwhile argument.” I firmly believe that at this time the good of the game and the community may be worth more to top pros like Assani than the low thousands he makes in the quarter arcade If he (they) were thinking long term. The same can be said for low $ cash games. In fairness, Assani isnt the only pro to frequent said contests. It’s also a bad look for 3 pros to knowingly play the exact same lineup.

  • AssaniFisher

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    @tgowen said...

    First, I will never understand the thought process of someone who plays upwards of $10k a day, also finding it necessary to enter into the $0.25 contests.

    I just thought of an analogy. I’m sure many people here will make moral judgements about me for the way I think about DFS, but I want to be 100% honest about the way my brain works. Heres how I think about it….

    Did anyone else here grow up playing lots of RPGs on Nintendo/Super Nintendo? I did. One of my favorite ones was EarthBound on SNES. In most RPGs prior to EarthBound, it sucked when you had to back-track through the early levels because the enemies there would be giving you such insignificant experience points/items that it definitely wasn’t worth your time to fight them(and often times fighting them was unavoidable). EarthBound introduced an awesome gameplay mechanic whereby if you encountered an enemy you were way stronger than, you would automatically win the battle(and get the experience points/items).

    When I back-tracked through most RPGs, I would try to run past enemies and have the fewest possible battles. In EarthBound, I would do just the opposite and try to run into every enemy. In other words, I would base my decision on whether or not to fight those enemies not just on the amount of experience points/items they would give me but based upon the experience points/items in relation to the time/effort it took.

    I am ultra competitive when it comes to DFS. I play to get the highest score(i.e. money won) and I refuse to be apologetic about that in any way ever. I feel as if I can be super nice and charitable when not playing DFS and then flip a switch and be ruthless as f-ck when playing DFS…Its a competition, guys! And similar to how I thought about fighting enemies when back-tracking through RPGs, I base my decision on what DFS contests to enter not just on the money that can be won but rather on the money that can be won in relation to the time/effort required. Often times it actually saves me time to +1 all contests instead of going through each one and deciding if I want to play it.

    So I simply don’t understand the notion of turning down the option to spend less time/effort and have it result in a higher score. Thats not how I think about games, and that not how I think about DFS. Thats not how I’ll ever think about DFS.

    But when I’m not playing DFS, I have no problem having an open discussion about DFS rules and I have no problem advocating rule changes that may hinder my ability to get the highest score possible. Honestly I’m a fairly simple guy: I don’t buy a ton of fancy sh-t and I don’t care that much about money….since I’ve made money from DFS I’ve bought one new guitar($2800) and otherwise I can’t think of any purchase over a few hundred dollars. What I do care about is being the best at the game. I care about getting the highest score while following all the rules, and I will never ever apologize for this because I don’t think its a moral or ethical issue. And when the rules change(often times hurting my profits), I don’t complain about me losing out on some $$ because I’m too focused on the challenge of optimally adopting to the new rules.

  • sjs1890

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBC Finalist

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I am ultra competitive when it comes to DFS. I play to get the highest score(i.e. money won) and I refuse to be apologetic about that in any way ever. I feel as if I can be super nice and charitable when not playing DFS and then flip a switch and be ruthless as f-ck when playing DFS…Its a competition, guys! And similar to how I thought about fighting enemies when back-tracking through RPGs, I base my decision on what DFS contests to enter not just on the money that can be won but rather on the money that can be won in relation to the time/effort required. Often times it actually saves me time to +1 all contests instead of going through each one and deciding if I want to play it.

    Hahaha did you really just compare dfs to rpg video games???? That’s just laughable and not comparable. Poker is a more comparable game and one that you seem to use quite a bit in arguments. In Poker you would NEVER see high stake players like Phil Ivey in lower stake tables, theres no ifs ands or buts about that. Using rpg video games to try and compare dfs is silly hahahahaha.

  • Jazzraz

    • 183

      RG Overall Ranking

    @sjs1890 said...

    Hahaha did you really just compare dfs to rpg video games???? That’s just laughable and not comparable. Poker is a more comparable game and one that you seem to use quite a bit in arguments. In Poker you would NEVER see high stake players like Phil Ivey in lower stake tables, theres no ifs ands or buts about that. Using rpg video games to try and compare dfs is silly hahahahaha.

    Thats because in poker you aren’t able to simply click a button and play all tables simultaneously. If that was somehow feasible i would bet you would see some pros play all limits not just high limits. At the end of the day everyone isn’t going to agree on whats morally right and wrong and who should play at what levels.

    The only way that will ever change is if the sites put in some type of rule to not allow certain people into certain buyins. Just like the max entry limit many people would still be playing 500 lineups even though lots of people thought it was too many , but the sites bumped it down to 150 and now nobody is able to do that.

  • Mphst18

    @Jazzraz said...

    The only way that will ever change is if the sites put in some type of rule to not allow certain people into certain buyins

    Its not the only way (yes its the only way to get everyone out) but people can make a CHOCIE and not enter the quarter arcade (I and many others choose not to).

    In “Online Poker” they can Multi table but even then there is a capacity limitation and you wouldn’t find them playing quarter tables.

    However what people don’t want to hear/see is someone saying I shouldn’t be playing in the quarter arcade and then going and playing in the quarter arcade.

    Play in it all you want just don’t then verbalize you don’t think you should be playing in it.

    People don’t want to hear someone say I care about playing to win the most money and then saying I don’t care about money.

  • AssaniFisher

    • 45

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    @sjs1890 said...

    Hahaha did you really just compare dfs to rpg video games???? That’s just laughable and not comparable. Poker is a more comparable game and one that you seem to use quite a bit in arguments. In Poker you would NEVER see high stake players like Phil Ivey in lower stake tables, theres no ifs ands or buts about that. Using rpg video games to try and compare dfs is silly hahahahaha.

    Poker is like the RPGs before EarthBound- its too difficult/time consuming to play the low stakes so I would try to avoid them. DFS is like EarthBound- theres a game mechanism which makes it easy to play the low stakes without taking away from your ability to also play the high stakes. Whether we are talking about video games or poker or DFS or any other game, I do whatever the optimal game strategy is and I don’t think morals or ethics have anything to do with it. That was the point of the analogy.

  • deactivated51600

    Assani, personally I think your 2nd to last post above where you made the analogy is one of the better and more clear posts you have made thus far. I appreciate the fact that you are putting yourself out there in a vulnerable position. Takes a strong person to do that.

    So, are you saying that the reason you end up in the Quarter Arcade is because you click on each line up, load it up and then simply hit the ‘Add one to all’ button? And that you are not going out of your way to seek out the Quarter Arcade, pulling it up and then multi entering it that way.

    If this is the case I think that definitely paints a more reasonable picture as to why a pro such as yourself would be in those events. I wish you had gone out of your way more to clarify this point prior. I think the perception can be when someone sees you have a number like 43 entries in the QA that you actually pulled it up and entered directly. Most players, i’d think and could be wrong, are unfamiliar with that button or do not have the bankroll to support clicking it.

    Now it sounds, at least to me personally, when you say that you don’t mind sites barring you from events that what you are saying is you do not mind if those events are removed from the ‘Add One to All’ option? But, you are not going to go out of your way, in the interest of efficiency(understandably) to go back and manually withdraw from all 25 cent events. Which is reasonable. Some of the 25 cent events probably are relevant to you as they offer opportunities to get high value tickets into events that suit your bankroll practically for free.

  • AssaniFisher

    • 45

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    • Ranked #39

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      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • x6

      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    @Mphst18 said...

    However what people don’t want to hear/see is someone saying I shouldn’t be playing in the quarter arcade and then going and playing in the quarter arcade.

    Play in it all you want just don’t then verbalize you don’t think you should be playing in it.

    People don’t want to hear someone say I care about playing to win the most money and then saying I don’t care about money.

    You continue to treat this like a moral issue. I am treating it as a gameplay issue. This seems to be the source of our disagreement.

    I gave an analogy earlier about a similar gameplay issue: A NFL team may think its best for the NFL to not allow 2pt conversions, and maybe they intend to vote to change the rule in the offseason. However, of course, in the meantime they will still go for 2 when it helps them win.

    You responded with an over-the-top analogy about a moral issue(slavery) which got deleted because it was so ridiculous.

  • impurityz

    Well their scores were not even good so working together didn’t help too much.

  • sjs1890

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBC Finalist

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I do whatever the optimal game strategy is and I don’t think morals or ethics have anything to do with it. That was the point of the analogy.

    Exactly and thats why some rules need to be considered strongly by DK. How is it fair for beginner or new users that play quarter and low dollar games to have to face high stake max entry players??? Yes ethics need to be questioned because all you are doing is just preying on new and unexperienced players. You say you are ultra competitive when it comes to dfs, then why do you have to play in low stakes?? Low confidence?? Poker is an ultra competitive game also and the pros face the top competition as they should.

  • AssaniFisher

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    @whoisjohngalt said...

    So, are you saying that the reason you end up in the Quarter Arcade is because you click on each line up, load it up and then simply hit the ‘Add one to all’ button? And that you are not going out of your way to seek out the Quarter Arcade, pulling it up and then multi entering it that way.

    My strategy changes depending on what the slate is offering.

    On a slate where the big GPP is a 20 man ThunderDome, I“ll often times only make one GPP team. In this situation, I use the +1 button. Or sometimes the big GPP is a 50 man $1k with 3 max entries, in which case its the same: I’ll bring up each of my 3 LUs individually and +1 all the GPPs. In these cases, if we assume a 50% ROI then I’m making a really insignificant amount of EV by entering the quarter arcade, so the reason I end up entering is not necessarily because I’m seeking out that profit but rather that its actually easier to enter them than to not enter them.

    Some nights the big GPP is something like a $300 entry with $100k to 1st and 50 max entries. On nights like these I’ll make 50 teams and then go into the lobby and enter all my LUs into a contest at once(via the “enter all selected lineups” button that pops up once you click the “enter” button next to a contest). Unlike the first example, this takes me more time than if I had not entered the quarter arcade. However, it only takes 5-10 seconds and since I have 50 teams that comes out to $6.25 in EV(again assuming 50% ROI). $6.25 for 10 seconds of work is a great rate, so I think its a good use of my time/energy.

    Regardless, never once does the thought “am I doing something immoral?” cross my mind. To me, I am playing a game and I’m trying to play it to the best of my ability….ethics have nothing to do with it.

  • AssaniFisher

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    @sjs1890 said...

    How is it fair for beginner or new users that play quarter and low dollar games to have to face high stake max entry players?

    Its fair because I had to go through it too. I had a $600 bankroll to start DFS. I pretty much broke even for the first 6 months I played despite the fact that I was spending a huge amount of hours studying.

    Why would it be fair for me to have to go through that and now that I am very skilled at DFS I can’t benefit from being on the other side of things? None of the pros gave me a pass when I was a fish…I can remember sitting $1-$50 HUs at one point in time, and every day I’d have $87 vs CONDIA because he’d take one HU at every stake. $87 was a considerable amount of my overall action in play those nights, so I hated it!

    Even when I increased my bankroll and started playing high stakes, I would still have some people take all of my HUs on FD and I’d end up with 90% of my action vs one player: https://gyazo.com/64e0733dc3c10ccca639369b48227f2d

  • Mphst18

    @AssaniFisher said...

    You responded with an over-the-top analogy about a moral issue(slavery) which got deleted because it was so ridiculous.

    It got deleted because RG didn’t want to go down that path but under your game play issue having free labor on a plantation would be +EV and more money for your Crop business so its more than just a moral issue and one you would utilize given all that you have stated.

  • Mphst18

    @AssaniFisher said...

    Its fair because I had to go through it too

    Because I got hazed, you get hazed, pure comedy this is a case I would expect to hear from someone under the age of the legal limit to play.

  • AssaniFisher

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    @impurityz said...

    Well their scores were not even good so working together didn’t help too much.

    Theres a very decent chance I was the biggest loser in week 1 NFL DFS

  • AssaniFisher

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    @Mphst18 said...

    Because I got hazed, you get hazed, pure comedy.

    hazing is a MORAL ISSUE. Playing DFS is a GAMEPLAY ISSUE.

    I put it in caps and bolded it this time, maybe you’ll finally stop ignoring this point. Its the center of our disagreement here.

  • deactivated51600

    @AssaniFisher said...

    However, it only takes 5-10 seconds and since I have 50 teams that comes out to $6.25 in EV(again assuming 50% ROI). $6.25 for 10 seconds of work is a great rate, so I think its a good use of my time/energy.

    Regardless, never once does the thought “am I doing something immoral?” cross my mind. To me, I am playing a game and I’m trying to play it to the best of my ability….ethics have nothing to do with it.

    You are not doing something immoral. At least IMO.

  • yeahthisiscuddy

    @AssaniFisher said...

    hazing is a MORAL ISSUE. Playing DFS is a GAMEPLAY ISSUE.

    I put it in caps and bolded it this time, maybe you’ll finally stop ignoring this point. Its the center of our disagreement here.

    We’re saying draftkings should fix the gameplay issue to preserve the community. They aren’t going to do that. Therefore it’s a moral issue for you to not play low stakes even though they won’t stop you. You’re hiding behind semantics here.

  • Mphst18

    He loves to utilize semantics to get around the issues.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/AssaniFisher/status/758704433936994308

  • AssaniFisher

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    @whoisjohngalt said...

    You are not doing something immoral. I think, and could be wrong, that the reason you are getting a lot of rub on this is you are only considering your own perspective and not putting yourselves in the shoes of those who have a lot less money and that potential win in the Quarter Arcade is a big deal. You are coming across as if you value that extra $6.25 for yourself and not valuing how that could be a difference maker for someone else who is lower on the food chain. You seem to have decided that because you have a reason that works for you and makes you feel better about it than that trumps the feelings of others. You are blessed enough that this can be ‘just a game’ for you and you come across as not realizing that for a lot of us we do not have that luxury and it is something that gives us hope that maybe one day we can have a little extra money in the bank. You have every right to enter those events. You also choose to be a part of the DFS community, which includes a lot more ‘have nots’ than ‘haves’. You do have the option/choice to ‘unlearn what you have learned’ a little and decide that you are going to put yourselves in the shoes of some of the littler fishies in the pond, who are also part of the DFS community, and exercise some altruism and simply give up that $6.25. I have a hard time believing DFS is ‘just a game to you’. From my perspective based on how you present yourself DFS is a huge part of your overall life and you have made 100+ friends in the community and you are able to make a living from it. You even moved yourself from Nevada to California just for DFS. Do you really believe DFS is ‘just a game’ for you? Seems to be that DFS and your connections you have made in the community are a major positive part of your life.

    I think the convo you and I are having now is somewhat productive, as we’ve finally started hearing each other out. Fwiw based on your posts here, I definitely think you should be the leader of these crusades and not Mphst18.

    Anyway, a few things in response:

    1. Your post seems to assume that me playing the quarter arcade has a large effect on the beginner’s ROI. You say “that $6.25 could be a difference maker” for someone else, but me not playing the quarter arcade does not put $6.25 into the pocket of an amateur player. I think that me entering 50 entries in the quarter arcade probably hurts a beginner’s ROI by something like 0.1%. In other words, me abstaining from the quarter arcade really wouldn’t make a difference at all.

    2. Because of my competitive nature, I actually like getting my ass handed to me when I“m a beginner at something. I know I said I “hated it” when CONDIA would scoop my HUs, but honestly I’m glad he did it. It forced me to work hard to become the player I am today.

    3. “for a lot of us we do not have that luxury and it is something that gives us hope that maybe one day we can have a little extra money in the bank”….Less than 10% of people are going to make money from DFS. Those that do will not do so because the pros took it easy on them, but rather they will become so good that they can win at contests that have some pros mass multi-entering. This is the only way to end up profitable in DFS. You have to make no excuses for your losses, focus on improving your own skills, and work your ass off.

    4. “exercise some altruism and simply give up that $6.25”…I would have no problem whatsoever donating my small stakes wins to charity because I think that would do legitimate good in the world. But if I just stopped playing low stakes, I don’t think anyone would even notice. Again I’ll say that I think my decision to play the quarter arcade impacts everyone’s EV by 0.1% or so.

    5. I’m not sure exactly what you’re asking regarding “just a game”, but I definitely do value all various things DFS has added to my life. I try to give back to the community through my vlogs and posts here. I’ve mostly found that I love meeting DFS people in real life but its really tough to deal with the anonymous nature of the internet, as that allows people to act in ways they never would in person.

  • deactivated51600

    @AssaniFisher said...

    Its fair because I had to go through it too. I had a $600 bankroll to start DFS. I pretty much broke even for the first 6 months I played despite the fact that I was spending a huge amount of hours studying.

    Why would it be fair for me to have to go through that and now that I am very skilled at DFS I can’t benefit from being on the other side of things? None of the pros gave me a pass when I was a fish…I can remember sitting $1-$50 HUs at one point in time, and every day I’d have $87 vs CONDIA because he’d take one HU at every stake. $87 was a considerable amount of my overall action in play those nights, so I hated it!

    Even when I increased my bankroll and started playing high stakes, I would still have some people take all of my HUs on FD and I’d end up with 90% of my action vs one player: https://gyazo.com/64e0733dc3c10ccca639369b48227f2d

    Makes sense I guess.

  • Mphst18

    @AssaniFisher said...

    Your post seems to assume that me playing the quarter arcade has a large effect on the beginner’s ROI. You say “that $6.25 could be a difference maker” for someone else, but me not playing the quarter arcade does not put $6.25 into the pocket of an amateur player. I think that me entering 50 entries in the quarter arcade probably hurts a beginner’s ROI by something like 0.1%. In other words, me abstaining from the quarter arcade really wouldn’t make a difference at all.

    You are so blind to the bigger picture it is shocking. Forget ROI Forget EV, think like a normal everyday HUMAN BEING (if you are capable of doing that).

    A beginner sees you in the quarter arcade and says man I don’t want to play DFS I can’t even get a game where I have a level playing field.

  • AssaniFisher

    • 45

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      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    @yeahthisiscuddy said...

    issue

    It wouldn’t “preserve the community” at all though. Not one bit. I have 13 years of experience in the world of poker/DFS, I know how an ecosystem maintains itself, and I’m incredibly confident about this. Can you find any with experience in the industry that would agree with you on this?

    Both sites have made a ton of changes to benefit new users in the past year. Saying “they aren’t going to do that” seems ridiculous to me. Maybe they won’t do exactly what you want them to do, but they have totally proven themselves willing to adopt these sorts of policies. The problem is that as soon as one is implemented, all you guys just ask for more and act as if they never listened to you to begin with. Matchup blockers, entry limits on low stakes contests, beginner’s only contests, more single entry events….these are all things that you guys asked for and got….and your response is now to ask for a Quarter Arcade that is devoid of pros. Well ok…if you were to get that, then are we good? Or will you then start saying that the $1 GPPs shouldn’t have pros in it?

    Basically, I feel like theres a large contingent of people here who don’t actually know how to maintain a DFS ecosystem, they constantly ask for things to benefit newer players, and when they get them they then ask for more.

  • Mphst18

    @AssaniFisher said...

    Matchup blockers

    AHHAHAHAHA the matchup blocker (limit of 3) becomes useless when TEAMS likes yours utilize TEAM PLAY and run identical lineups.

    I guess we all shouldn’t push for equal rights for all either and just be happy with the ones we have.

  • AssaniFisher

    • 45

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    • Ranked #39

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      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

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      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    @Mphst18 said...

    AHHAHAHAHA the matchup blocker (limit of 3) becomes useless when TEAMS likes yours utilize TEAM PLAY and run identical lineups

    matchup blockers block the pros from taking your Heads Ups. If you want to take the pros heads ups(like you did in OP) then thats on you.

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