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  • Mphst18

    From your website on community guidelines:

    “Team-building a lineup, or a set of complementary lineups which serve to work together, to execute a strategy that may create any unfair advantage over individual play”

    I do not understand how you do not classify what is going on as an example of the above situation.

    Myself and anyone else that plays as individual is at an unfair advantage as one individual only has so much time to research and utilize data to build a lineup, while these 3 have 3 times the amount of time and then build identical lineups to create an unfair advantage against individual play. They don’t even bother to differentiate the way the lineups are entered (all in the exact same order).

    The only other case that could be made is that one of the 3 makes the lineup and the other three copy it but that isn’t going to help your “Skill” verbatim around the legality of the sport.

    While these individuals provide much more rake than I do to you guys they are clearly violating your rules. Are you going to do anything about it?

    https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/26588856?uc=470716397

    https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/26834127?uc=471339295

    https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/27224326?uc=471315951

    RG: if you had to vote who do you think builds the lineups and who do you think copies and pastes and enters them (Assani, AEjones, Wdrzich)

    Its not about winning or losing, its that these individuals and others like them are going to lead to the end of DFS.

  • Mphst18

    @AssaniFisher said...

    matchup blockers block the pros from taking your Heads Ups. If you want to take the pros heads ups(like you did in OP) then thats on you.

    Matchup blocker is only a limit of 3 genius!!! And in addition in order to stop receiving emails from people inviting you to contests you have to use the blocker. The matchup blocker was a bandaid that is being torn off by TEAM PLAY and Syndicates that you operate in. If someone blocks Daut/MIR/and Aejones guess what they still get you, will, papa gates, chipotle addict and all the others at microstakes

  • AssaniFisher

    • 47

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #39

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • x2

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • x6

      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    @Mphst18 said...

    A beginner sees you in the quarter arcade and says man I don’t want to play DFS I can’t even get a game where I have a level playing field.

    This doesn’t actually happen. Your posts demonstrate a huge misunderstand about the psychology of _______(that G-word which I won’t use due to the DFS legal issues).

    What actually happens is exactly what you showed in this thread: You go through this cycle whereby you choose to play us even though you know theres no way you’re +EV vs us, if you win then you don’t say a word, but if you lose then you make a ton of excuses/complaints….then give it a few days and you come back to play again and the cycle repeats. Its the reason why you risked $285 vs us when you could’ve risked $15. Its an ex-post facto narrative that places the blame for your losses on someone other than yourself because it makes you feel better. Its a huge deterrent to becoming a winning player though- to become a winning player you really need to focus on yourself and ignore excuses.

  • Mphst18

    @AssaniFisher said...

    This doesn’t actually happen. Your posts demonstrate a huge misunderstand about the psychology of _______(that G-word which I won’t use due to the DFS legal issues).

    What actually happens is exactly what you showed in this thread: You go through this cycle whereby you choose to play us even though you know theres no way you’re +EV vs us, if you win then you don’t say a word, but if you lose then you make a ton of excuses/complains….then give it a few days and you come back to play again and the cycle repeats. Its the reason why you risked $285 vs us when you could’ve risked $15. Its an ex-post facto narrative that places the blame for your losses on someone other than yourself because it makes you feel better. Its a huge deterrent to becoming a winning player though- to become a winning player you really need to focus on yourself and ignoring excuses.

    Not everyone turns into an Addict my friend, just cause you studied philosophy it doesn’t make you a psychologist.

  • deactivated51600

    Interesting thread.

  • Mphst18

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I have 13 years of experience in the world of poker/DFS

    13 years to learn how to cheat and apply the cheating from online poker to online DFS, Congrats on your outstanding years of service of robbing from the unsuspecting.

    Your great actions and insight sure saved online poker, oh wait IT DIDN“T

  • tvsfrink

    Cheat and rob, slavery, morality…

    This thread is something.

  • Jcb890

    I’ll just leave this here…

    www.google.com – “quotes about doing the right thing” – https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=quotes%20about%20doing%20the%20right%20thing

    While this clearly falls on the sites and regulation, there is a huge difference between doing what is legally allowed and doing what is right.

    That being said… I almost feel a bit bad for Assani here. He’s in a lose-lose situation, but at least he’s conversing with people here on RG. That’s at least something. No other top players will even speak publicly to people on a message board, so we have to give him credit for that. And while he’s arguing semantics and whatever else is going on, he at least seems to be mostly truthful. Again, credit due for that.

  • cutter2225

    @tvsfrink said...

    Cheat and rob, slavery, morality…

    Most of the pro sharks are definitely experts in operating in the grey areas. Does that warrant the label of cheater? IMO it’s been proven syndicates and team play are used in DFS and since it’s “supposedly” against the rules, yes it’s cheating. Robbery and slavery are terms I wouldn’t choose to describe the situation. As for morality…I began going to the racetrack and betting horses at the age of 12. By fifteen I was betting sports and horses and by 17 was working for a local bookie. I’m 42 now and what 30 years of experience in the gaming industry has taught me is when monies (big or small) is on the line, morality is checked at the door.

  • Unico10

    • 498

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #65

      RG Tiered Ranking

    If Assani and Mphst were both selling their car. Listed as same make, model, year, miles and price…. who would you feel more comfortable buying from?

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @Unico10 said...

    If Assani and Mphst were both selling their car. Listed as same make, model, year, miles and price…. who would you feel more comfortable buying from?

    Mphst I guess would tell me everything that is potentially wrong with the car/has been wrong with it in the past, but would probably be a huge pain the a$$ to finalize the deal with. I’d give him a check and he would want a cashier’s check from the bank in case I am trying to cheat him/bounce the check. I’d want to go to a reputable, known business to do the title transfer, he would probably want to only support a small, local business. I’d tell him I will need to rent a car from Enterprise for a few days and he would only agree to sell the car if I use Hertz as they are better known for their charity work. And so on…

  • cherylwin

    @AssaniFisher said...

    This doesn’t actually happen. Your posts demonstrate a huge misunderstand about the psychology of _______(that G-word which I won’t use due to the DFS legal issues).

    What actually happens is exactly what you showed in this thread: You go through this cycle whereby you choose to play us even though you know theres no way you’re +EV vs us, if you win then you don’t say a word, but if you lose then you make a ton of excuses/complaints….then give it a few days and you come back to play again and the cycle repeats. Its the reason why you risked $285 vs us when you could’ve risked $15. Its an ex-post facto narrative that places the blame for your losses on someone other than yourself because it makes you feel better. Its a huge deterrent to becoming a winning player though- to become a winning player you really need to focus on yourself and ignore excuses.

    I am a new player in DFS. I played 3 weeks of baseball and a $1 double-up in NFL this week. After reading this thread Assani, I can assure you that if I see you in my $1 Double-up , I will quit DFS on the spot.

  • colinwdrew

    • 193

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FHWC Finalist

    • 2018 DraftKings NFL KOTB Finalist

    While what you are doing isn’t illegal per DK rules as I read them, you operate in several ways that makes you as a player seem unethical which yes is an opinion not a fact. In an industry where public opinion has been proven to matter immensely your behavior would certainly be frowned down upon when described as a group of professional gamblers teaming up to share lineups and take money from unsuspecting low stakes customers. To acknowledge pros should not enter the quarter arcade and then enter it yourself demonstrates you care about rules and profits and not ethics. Which is fine.

    But realize that you are as culpable as the sites by engaging in behavior that will be viewed poorly by the public, if and when it goes viral. Greed like this has already lead to a 50 percent ish decline in valuation of the industry and all sub-industries from content providers to profitable players, and while you may sacrifice 15k of game play equity you are also putting growth of new players and retention of existing players at risk which hurts your future equity. While it may end up short term +EV for you the events of last year caused by factions acting in legal and not dissimilar ways were -EV for profitable players as a whole.

  • misfit

    Does it not bother any of you how closely the top DFS sites stay in touch with a site who’s main purpose is to make CASH from the users by selling lineup tools and promoting their podcasts, shows and making a name for Pro’s??
    You all act like this is some type of player community site and forget COMPLETELY the whole purpose RG even exists.
    Make no mistake, most of the issues that keep coming up would have been solved much sooner if NOT for the pro’s here at RG denying, then denying again and agin that any of it was ever happening and covering for the cheaters and sites both.
    This is NOT player community but a site devoted to making cash off of you the players. Like any other site.They do not post this site out of benefit for the community but for the benefit of their bank accounts and that of the other pros.
    You are a fool if you think anything other than that.
    They do NOT and never have stood by the players or community.
    They have ALWAYS backed the Pro’s who get caught time after time and the sites who denie it time after time. But yet, you still believe and drink that friggin cool aid year after year.

  • Avgplayer

    I love how DK ignores the majority but listen to the tweets of the minority. Great business plan! Also another great derail of a thread again. These people just pull you into the circle and around and around you go. WEEEEEEEEEEE!

  • cutter2225

    @Avgplayer said...

    I love how DK ignores the majority but listen to the tweets of the minority. Great business plan!

    Short-term profits over long-term viability. Not a good mix.

  • TwoSHAE

    I’m glad they’ve pulled back on the “Community guidelines”. While there are legitimate issues in DFS, this was a very poor attempt/1st step at dealing with them.

    I think teams of guys who work together who run the same lineup in H2H’s is totally reasonable. I think them playing in the same double ups is borderline. If it’s in smaller fields like 3-10 mans it’s a massive EV hit to play the same lineup but it’s hard to say where to draw the line — whether it’s them not being able to play any of the same double ups or only of field size n > ?.

    Trying to enforce anything adds a whole new layer of accountability to the sites. They’d have to know who every team is. Also, there’s a difference between teams who are close friends/discuss plays/use all the same data/research, and actual teams who just straight play the same lineup in 90+% of slates. Dealing with that is a mess / somewhat subjective.

    I think it is great that guys like the rayofhope duo do all of their play on one account. In an ideal world all teams would do this, but it doesn’t work for most teams for obvious reasons — tax issues, different sized bankrolls, different appetites for risk, disagreements about strategy on particular slates, the list goes on.

    I think colluding in GPPs is a much larger issue, especially in smaller fields like the Thunderdome. I think a team of 3 that works together to make 450 lineups and then splits them up 150/150/150 to avoid duplication is crossing the line. Again though, adds a massive amount of accountability on the sites which makes enforcement tough/subjective. It could be that all teams just have to do all their GPP play on one account, but that again raises the question of what constitutes a “team”.

    As for pros playing low stakes, while it’s kind and generous and forward-thinking to give up the EV, you can’t expect every single pro to unilaterally make that decision because that’s not the world we live in. You are literally never going to convince everyone. Period. So you’re just wasting your breath unless the site does something. As far as what they could/should do, again, it’s a very tough/subjective issue. And a lot of people are going to use the logic “Well X is playing low stakes so if I don’t I’m just freerolling myself”.

    I have more thoughts on stuff sites can do and other issues but not enough time to write more than I already have, but hopefully this gets the ball rolling. The discussion needs to be less whining / sour grapes type stuff and more to-the-point as far as a) defining the problems and b) suggesting realistic and fair ways to deal with them.

  • deactivated51600

    @TwoSHAE said...

    I’m glad they’ve pulled back on the “Community guidelines”. While there are legitimate issues in DFS, this was a very poor attempt/1st step at dealing with them.

    I think teams of guys who work together who run the same lineup in H2H’s is totally reasonable. I think them playing in the same double ups is borderline. If it’s in smaller fields like 3-10 mans it’s a massive EV hit to play the same lineup but it’s hard to say where to draw the line — whether it’s them not being able to play any of the same double ups or only of field size n > ?.

    Trying to enforce anything adds a whole new layer of accountability to the sites. They’d have to know who every team is. Also, there’s a difference between teams who are close friends/discuss plays/use all the same data/research, and actual teams who just straight play the same lineup in 90+% of slates. Dealing with that is a mess / somewhat subjective.

    I think it is great that guys like the rayofhope duo do all of their play on one account. In an ideal world all teams would do this, but it doesn’t work for most teams for obvious reasons — tax issues, different sized bankrolls, different appetites for risk, disagreements about strategy on particular slates, the list goes on.

    I think colluding in GPPs is a much larger issue, especially in smaller fields like the Thunderdome. I think a team of 3 that works together to make 450 lineups and then splits them up 150/150/150 to avoid duplication is crossing the line. Again though, adds a massive amount of accountability on the sites which makes enforcement tough/subjective. It could be that all teams just have to do all their GPP play on one account, but that again raises the question of what constitutes a “team”.

    As for pros playing low stakes, while it’s kind and generous and forward-thinking to give up the EV, you can’t expect every single pro to unilaterally make that decision because that’s not the world we live in. You are literally never going to convince everyone. Period. So you’re just wasting your breath unless the site does something. As far as what they could/should do, again, it’s a very tough/subjective issue. And a lot of people are going to use the logic “Well X is playing low stakes so if I don’t I’m just freerolling myself”.

    I have more thoughts on stuff sites can do and other issues but not enough time to write more than I already have, but hopefully this gets the ball rolling. The discussion needs to be less whining / sour grapes type stuff and more to-the-point as far as a) defining the problems and b) suggesting realistic and fair ways to deal with them.

    Excellent post.

  • Figgelbert

    @cherylwin said...

    I am a new player in DFS. I played 3 weeks of baseball and a $1 double-up in NFL this week. After reading this thread Assani, I can assure you that if I see you in my $1 Double-up , I will quit DFS on the spot.

    Cheryl,
    Being new one thing you have to understand is playing against Assani or any pro is that in a single entry cash game or tourney you are on an even field and have a decent chance. I am a beginner in all formats of Dfs but have won a bunch of low level tourneys that are single entry.They don’t count toward your top player totals and most don’t have a lot of pro’s.
    Just practice building your cash line ups and enter single entry ones and you’ll be fine learning.
    Being a beginner you can enter just beginner ones as you learn also.

    But remember in single entry contests a pro can only enter one line up which takes away their advantage and evens the field so cashing isn’t as difficult as you think if you do your research.

  • cherylwin

    @Figgelbert said...

    Cheryl,
    Being new one thing you have to understand is playing against Assani or any pro is that in a single entry cash game or tourney you are on an even field and have a decent chance. I am a beginner in all formats of Dfs but have won a bunch of low level tourneys that are single entry.They don’t count toward your top player totals and most don’t have a lot of pro’s.
    Just practice building your cash line ups and enter single entry ones and you’ll be fine learning.
    Being a beginner you can enter just beginner ones as you learn also.

    But remember in single entry contests a pro can only enter one line up which takes away their advantage and evens the field so cashing isn’t as difficult as you think if you do your research.

    Thank you for the encouragement. Since I always followed sports, I had heard of Draftkings and Fanduel . So when my friend suggested I try it I was all excited about it. I joined Rotogrinders yesterday and was reading thru these threads and now I don’t know if I’ll stick around. Seems like a lot of corruption and greed—-They sure forgot to mention that on the commercials.lol

  • Unico10

    • 498

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #65

      RG Tiered Ranking

    @cherylwin said...

    Seems like a lot of corruption and greed

    Well…. it involves the human species and money…. there will be corruption and greed anywhere there are humans.

  • deactivated60279

    Corruption, greed, gray areas etc etc are topics that seems to have been around A long while in Dfs. The question is, what can we as a community do about it? Maybe that’s a direction for another thread but it just gets exhausting hearing this bs all of the time. Further, the examples we hear on the threads are just the ones that were unearthed. Imagine what goes on that never comes to light. Imagine the perks the “pros” get from the sites that we have no clue about. I love Dfs and want to keep playing but the codependent relationship between top volume guys and the sites is such a conflict of interest. Again, what can we do???

  • jhorst52

    • 51

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #42

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • x3

      2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • x2

      2016 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    @Stewburtx8 said...

    ess would tell me everything that is potentially wrong with the car/has been wrong with it in the past, but would probably be a huge pain the a$$ to finalize the deal with. I’d give him a check and he would want a cashier’s check from the bank in case I am trying to cheat him/bounce the check. I’d want to go to a reputable, known business to do the title transfer, he would probably want to only support a small, local business. I’d tell him I will need to rent a car from Enterprise for a few days and he would only agree to sell the car if I use Hertz as they are better known for their charity work. And so on…

    This has to be one of the funniest posts I have ever read….thank you for starting my Friday with a good laugh.

  • zachj

    @cutter2225 said...

    by 17 was working for a local bookie

    Were you the guy who went around to collect with a baseball bat when people were late with their payments?

  • cutter2225

    @zachj said...

    Were you the guy who went around to collect with a baseball bat when people were late with their payments?

    I never encountered that situation and to be honest I’m not capable of that kind of violence.

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

    • 255

      RG Overall Ranking

    • $1M Prize Winner

    • x4

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @Mphst18 said...

    13 years to learn how to cheat and apply the cheating from online poker to online DFS, Congrats on your outstanding years of service of robbing from the unsuspecting.

    Your great actions and insight sure saved online poker, oh wait IT DIDN“T

    Hey MPH, this post crosses the line. Your original post also sets the tone that one of these three is creating the lineup and sharing with the others. That is pure speculation, but not clearly posted as such. I’ve asked you before not to do this. You can disagree with what Assani is doing but you can’t call him a cheater if he is not cheating.

    People are allowed to work together to create lineups. Multiple websites, including this one, have live shows in which the analysts on the show build a lineup together.

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