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  • KATburger

    • Blogger of the Month

    I’m calling on the RG community to stand up to FD and demand that we have late swap on the main slates for the NBA season. I have spent the past few moments detailing to the live chat representative how it’s extremely unfair to adapt changes to MLB and NFL for the current/ending seasons and blatantly ignore the sport that is impacted the most by not having late swap. Already for opening night were forced to make decisions with multiple players set as a GTD in the late game and with all of the late lineup changes and last second decisions on players last year there’s no reason to have not made these changes in the NBA format. They stated there “Looking into it in the future.” and “Many customers have requested it.” This should have been a decision that was made at the end of the the playoffs last year. For them to think making those changes to other sports and completely disregarding NBA is truly a slap in the face to us DFS players. I understand that not everyone cares about about this issue but from an antitrust point of view or consumer protection in general this change needs to happen. Anyone not max entering lineups is harmed from non swap format being applied to the main slates. Obviously there are other DFS sites that offer the product that appeals to myself and other DFSers however that does not fix the negligence currently taking place at FD pertaining to this issue. With RG being a frequent sponsor of events I feel this is the appropriate platform to speak on this issue and show the management at fanduel that we will not tolerate different sports being formatted at there sole discretion at the expense of the consumer. I far to often donated to the cause last year whether it was game postponements or surprise scratches. This could become a regulatory issue in the future as well. If DFS sites don’t offer some sort of protection to its consumers DFS will not last. Not to mention the relationship between DFS players and TV viewings, if i’m unable to play due to the extreme risk involved without late swap I wont be purchasing league pass, I wont be viewing any teams other than my Minnesota Timberwolves, I wont be scouring #ESPN gamecast while i’m away from home and ultimately the NBA will suffer at a time when they could capture the crown as Americas favorite sport with the decline in the NFL. So either the NBA needs to adapt their approach and offer lineup news earlier which is highly unrealistic or FD needs to adopt a policy to better protect us from these situations. I’ll take the ladder.

    Obviously there will be several different opinions or views to this topic. But as a daily player of all sports MLB, NFL and NBA (some occasional NHL, PGA) this seems like a fair request and those who feel the same should speak up and contact FD about this. Any support from the RG administrators or management as a lead on this issue would be appreciated as you often sponsor FD events. If we join together as a community we can correct this issue. Thanks for taking the time to read through.

  • Njsum1

    @JustDFSin said...

    I get that the sites are trying to cater to the casual player. I get that 100%. What I don’t get is the causal player expecting to have everything equal when they can’t or won’t put the time in. How can someone complain about a “pro” having an edge when that person will not even bother to find out the basics of whether their players are even starting or not. You wan’t to win but guessing the late game lineups esp with all the injuries in NBA? I do not understand that logic

    I’m going to try and help you here, and I apologize in advance if I come across a little brazen. What you really don’t understand the logic of, is that you’re arguing against your own bankroll. You only think you want late swap when in fact you do not.

    Most casual players will easily put in the time to swap a player that is scratched. That is by no means the “edge” the pros are getting. If all you’re using late swap for is to swap out an injured player, you are playing checkers while you’re opponents will be playing chess.

    In a late swap game, assume a pro is going to put in 150 lineups. They will leave about half those lineups blank or just fill in a couple players from the early games, so they can then use sophisticated software to adjust all these lineups to make them optimal once news breaks. I don’t know if you have that software or not, yet if you want late swap you’ll need to get it to compete. These lineups will constantly be updated and tweaked as news breaks, it’s never a 1 v 1 switch. The entire composition of the lineup will change based on 1 piece of news, and they can do this for 150 lineups. Yet as the night goes on, some lineups will be competed by the 8 o clock tip offs, while others there are spaces left blank for late breaking news for the 10pm games, then that batch of lineups are then adjusted to account for that news. Now unless you have the capability to do that, then simply understand that there will be nights when the no late swap helps you, and nights when it hurts you. Yet know you’re on a much leveler playing field with no late swap.

  • Lathum

    @JustDFSin said...

    I get that the sites are trying to cater to the casual player. I get that 100%. What I don’t get is the causal player expecting to have everything equal when they can’t or won’t put the time in. How can someone complain about a “pro” having an edge when that person will not even bother to find out the basics of whether their players are even starting or not. You wan’t to win but guessing the late game lineups esp with all the injuries in NBA? I do not understand that logic

    This is so incredibly shortsighted.

    I would venture 95% of DFS players are casual players. Saying the don’t have a right to complain because they don’t put in the research is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    The casual player needs to at least have the perception they stand a chance, when in reality between the rake and the multi entries they don’t, but they at least need to get a sweat every once in a while and win occasionally to sustain their bankroll, otherwise they figure out they are burning money.

    lose the casual player and the sites are done, I’m sorry but “ put in the work or don’t complain” doesn’t really fly.

  • bigez952

    I think this is a great explanation as to why Draftkings made the change to no late swap to help casual players to protect their business long term. Even if casual players know they will lose long term they won’t continue to play if they lose 80-100% of the time. When Draftkings sent out the notification of the reason behind the change a lot of it had to do with casual players just want to focus on watching and enjoying the games after lock vs. scrambling to build new lineups with every piece of news all night long just so they have a chance to compete and don’t take the auto loss by doing nothing.

    EDIT : This was supposed to quote Njsum1’s post from above.

  • bigez952

    @Lathum said...

    The casual player needs to at least have the perception they stand a chance, when in reality between the rake and the multi entries they don’t, but they at least need to get a sweat every once in a while and win occasionally to sustain their bankroll, otherwise they figure out they are burning money.

    I agree with this statement. Even though DFS markets itself as a game of skill I think they can be compared a lot to casinos. Most people who frequent casinos know they are going to lose long term but still love the feeling of hitting a jackpot on a slot machine or having a hot run of cards at blackjack. The same goes for most DFS players that will have many more losing days than winning ones but it is the handful of sweats with high GPP finishers is enough to keep players coming back.

  • Lathum

    I don’t even mind losing if I get a good sweat. Last night perfect example. I was close to the cash line and was hanging on every possession. I didn’t cash but on a night where my wife was away on business and the kids were in bed it was way more fun watching Portland – New Orleans than reruns Of pawn stars. FU Anthony Davis also. Would have smashed if he played.

  • JustDFSin

    @Njsum1 said...

    I’m going to try and help you here, and I apologize in advance if I come across a little brazen. What you really don’t understand the logic of, is that you’re arguing against your own bankroll. You only think you want late swap when in fact you do not.

    Most casual players will easily put in the time to swap a player that is scratched. That is by no means the “edge” the pros are getting. If all you’re using late swap for is to swap out an injured player, you are playing checkers while you’re opponents will be playing chess.

    In a late swap game, assume a pro is going to put in 150 lineups. They will leave about half those lineups blank or just fill in a couple players from the early games, so they can then use sophisticated software to adjust all these lineups to make them optimal once news breaks. I don’t know if you have that software or not, yet if you want late swap you’ll need to get it to compete. These lineups will constantly be updated and tweaked as news breaks, it’s never a 1 v 1 switch. The entire composition of the lineup will change based on 1 piece of news, and they can do this for 150 lineups. Yet as the night goes on, some lineups will be competed by the 8 o clock tip offs, while others there are spaces left blank for late breaking news for the 10pm games, then that batch of lineups are then adjusted to account for that news. Now unless you have the capability to do that, then simply understand that there will be nights when the no late swap helps you, and nights when it hurts you. Yet know you’re on a much leveler playing field with no late swap.

    My question you is why does the late swap rule not apply to football or baseball. I’m sure “pros” are running programs changing around lineups based on scores right? It is just not based of injuries..Also their is no 20 limit max either. Can you breakdown why it is allowed in other sports and not in basketball?

  • Njsum1

    @JustDFSin said...

    My question you is why does the late swap rule not apply to football or baseball. I’m sure “pros” are running programs changing around lineups based on scores right? It is just not based of injuries..Also their is no 20 limit max either. Can you breakdown why it is allowed in other sports and not in basketball?

    Sure…there are far less scratches in football and baseball. And football doesn’t release injury news until before the games, and the games are often scattered across hours or even days. So the pros aren’t gaining an advantage waiting to see if RB1 plays, and will be ready to start RB2, cause pretty much everyone, casuals included, are doing that for football, since its a weekly event, not a nightly game. Much less time consuming. And in baseball scratches happen yet are very rare. So in the rare instance it does happen, it’s nice to be able to not take the 0 (yet that’s not guaranteed in baseball anyway).

    To your other point, yes pros (and non pros), will swap out a player if they see that their opponents are likely to have the same player and they need to Make a change to have a chance at winning. However, they are swapping to a sub optimal play, and in most cases it won’t work out for them, and slips them, further down the money line. Whereas, with injuries in basketball they’re swapping into optimal plays, leaving little chance for the casual to compete.

  • KindGuy

    @JustDFSin said...

    My question you is why does the late swap rule not apply to football or baseball. I’m sure “pros” are running programs changing around lineups based on scores right? It is just not based of injuries..Also their is no 20 limit max either. Can you breakdown why it is allowed in other sports and not in basketball?

    It’s been said numerous times in this thread already but late swap in NBA is a completely different beast than in other sports.

    In a nutshell, the more experienced players who use late swap effectively ( Not just swapping out an inactive player) are at such a significant advantage compared to casuals who don’t have the same time or desire.

  • HuskerAaron

    Fascinating comments on last night’s late swap issues. I had zero Jimmy Butler, but about 90% AD. I was able to cash in 3 of 5 GPP entries (barely). I think I understand both, if not all sides of the argument.

    Where do I fit though? I’m not a “pro”. I play mainly for fun, but hate to lose money. Hence, I play mostly cash tourneys…keep my bankroll positive+ and cash out here and there. I do my research, make (usually) smart decisions and do decent. Having a last second player scratch sucks, but I’m in the same boat as everyone else. I think it would rip me up if I couldn’t swap a player and was in a $5,300 gpp and no one else had that player (aka Jimmy Butler last night). Again, I see both sides, and money is a very personal thing, gambling and sports aside.

    Maybe there’s a compromise somewhere that keeps the casual players around and engaged, keeps the pros happy, and keeps the intermediate players like me from having to get frustrated by both inconsistencies. Maybe for NBA, you get one “mulligan” per night for one tourney or gpp where you can make just one late sub. I don’t know.

    I’m rambling. Interesting topic …

    I’m picking Deangelo Russell tonight. Heard he’ll light it up. Good Luck.

  • bigez952

    @HuskerAaron said...

    Maybe there’s a compromise somewhere that keeps the casual players around and engaged, keeps the pros happy, and keeps the intermediate players like me from having to get frustrated by both inconsistencies. Maybe for NBA, you get one “mulligan” per night for one tourney or gpp where you can make just one late sub. I don’t know.

    I have heard Fanduel is running a freeroll tonight for the players that rostered Jimmy Butler. I am sure some people will still get pissed at that saying it is not enough but I think it is a nice gesture since his scratch was so unexpected.

  • lggarruto

    • 588

      RG Overall Ranking

    @bigez952 said...

    I think this is a great explanation as to why Draftkings made the change to no late swap to help casual players to protect their business long term. Even if casual players know they will lose long term they won’t continue to play if they lose 80-100% of the time. When Draftkings sent out the notification of the reason behind the change a lot of it had to do with casual players just want to focus on watching and enjoying the games after lock vs. scrambling to build new lineups with every piece of news all night long just so they have a chance to compete and don’t take the auto loss by doing nothing.

    EDIT : This was supposed to quote Njsum1’s post from above.

    are the casual players spending $333 and up in a lineup, I highly doubt it and if they are then they better make it their business to be by a damn phone. As a casual player I would much rather have a chance to protect my investment on a late scratch then throw away $. they should make the small gpps the non late swap for the casual player.

  • jpwinds

    Sometimes they get hurt… Sometimes they get benched… Sometimes they don’t play. Shit happens and you lose that day. And it sucks.
    This is akin to a poker player bitching about that dude that is chasing 2 7 off suit. If they change to late swap for NBA goodbye less informed money. Play the long game.

  • JustDFSin

    @HuskerAaron said...

    Fascinating comments on last night’s late swap issues. I had zero Jimmy Butler, but about 90% AD. I was able to cash in 3 of 5 GPP entries (barely). I think I understand both, if not all sides of the argument.

    Where do I fit though? I’m not a “pro”. I play mainly for fun, but hate to lose money. Hence, I play mostly cash tourneys…keep my bankroll positive+ and cash out here and there. I do my research, make (usually) smart decisions and do decent. Having a last second player scratch sucks, but I’m in the same boat as everyone else. I think it would rip me up if I couldn’t swap a player and was in a $5,300 gpp and no one else had that player (aka Jimmy Butler last night). Again, I see both sides, and money is a very personal thing, gambling and sports aside.

    Maybe there’s a compromise somewhere that keeps the casual players around and engaged, keeps the pros happy, and keeps the intermediate players like me from having to get frustrated by both inconsistencies. Maybe for NBA, you get one “mulligan” per night for one tourney or gpp where you can make just one late sub. I don’t know.

    I’m rambling. Interesting topic …

    I’m picking Deangelo Russell tonight. Heard he’ll light it up. Good Luck.

    Send me a h2h if you are choosing Deangelo russel lol. You do know he is doubrful for tonight right?

  • jpwinds

    @lggarruto said...

    are the casual players spending $333 and up in a lineup, I highly doubt it and if they are then they better make it their business to be by a damn phone. As a casual player I would much rather have a chance to protect my investment on a late scratch then throw away $. they should make the small gpps the non late swap for the casual player.

    Maybe you are on to something there. Make $100 an higher contests late swappable. Site might like that as it might push a few mid range players into that contest level

  • HuskerAaron

    @JustDFSin said...

    Send me a h2h if you are choosing Deangelo russel lol. You do know he is doubrful for tonight right?

    Yes, that was sarcasm. He was one of my studs going into today. Meh.

  • RockyMtHigh

    @Njsum1 said...

    I’m going to try and help you here, and I apologize in advance if I come across a little brazen. What you really don’t understand the logic of, is that you’re arguing against your own bankroll. You only think you want late swap when in fact you do not.

    Most casual players will easily put in the time to swap a player that is scratched. That is by no means the “edge” the pros are getting. If all you’re using late swap for is to swap out an injured player, you are playing checkers while you’re opponents will be playing chess.

    In a late swap game, assume a pro is going to put in 150 lineups. They will leave about half those lineups blank or just fill in a couple players from the early games, so they can then use sophisticated software to adjust all these lineups to make them optimal once news breaks. I don’t know if you have that software or not, yet if you want late swap you’ll need to get it to compete. These lineups will constantly be updated and tweaked as news breaks, it’s never a 1 v 1 switch. The entire composition of the lineup will change based on 1 piece of news, and they can do this for 150 lineups. Yet as the night goes on, some lineups will be competed by the 8 o clock tip offs, while others there are spaces left blank for late breaking news for the 10pm games, then that batch of lineups are then adjusted to account for that news. Now unless you have the capability to do that, then simply understand that there will be nights when the no late swap helps you, and nights when it hurts you. Yet know you’re on a much leveler playing field with no late swap.

    Can you point me in the direction of this sophisticated software? I use solvers in excel, but I imagune you’re talking about something else. I wanna investigate.

  • Lathum

    @RockyMtHigh said...

    Can you point me in the direction of this sophisticated software? I use solvers in excel, but I imagune you’re talking about something else. I wanna investigate.

    a lot of pros develop their own. They aren’t even sports fans and don’t know much about it. They do know a lot about computers and numbers, and with knowledge of those two things you can get very far and make a lot of money.

    No different than the internet poker players back in the early 2000s. I grew up in NJ, played in Atlantic City a lot. In the early days I salivated when some internet kid with a fat bankroll came in.

  • Njsum1

    @RockyMtHigh said...

    Can you point me in the direction of this sophisticated software? I use solvers in excel, but I imagune you’re talking about something else. I wanna investigate.

    That’s more than I use…I make 20 lineups by hand per night. If news breaks before lock and I have time to adjust I’ll do it manually.

  • Njsum1

    @lggarruto said...

    are the casual players spending $333 and up in a lineup, I highly doubt it and if they are then they better make it their business to be by a damn phone. As a casual player I would much rather have a chance to protect my investment on a late scratch then throw away $. they should make the small gpps the non late swap for the casual player.

    I agree there should be some recourse, just not full on late swap. If a player is a late scratch you should be able to swap that player only or you get like 4 to 5 times the scratched players salary.

  • depalma13

    @Njsum1 said...

    I’m going to try and help you here, and I apologize in advance if I come across a little brazen. What you really don’t understand the logic of, is that you’re arguing against your own bankroll. You only think you want late swap when in fact you do not.

    Most casual players will easily put in the time to swap a player that is scratched. That is by no means the “edge” the pros are getting. If all you’re using late swap for is to swap out an injured player, you are playing checkers while you’re opponents will be playing chess.

    In a late swap game, assume a pro is going to put in 150 lineups. They will leave about half those lineups blank or just fill in a couple players from the early games, so they can then use sophisticated software to adjust all these lineups to make them optimal once news breaks. I don’t know if you have that software or not, yet if you want late swap you’ll need to get it to compete. These lineups will constantly be updated and tweaked as news breaks, it’s never a 1 v 1 switch. The entire composition of the lineup will change based on 1 piece of news, and they can do this for 150 lineups. Yet as the night goes on, some lineups will be competed by the 8 o clock tip offs, while others there are spaces left blank for late breaking news for the 10pm games, then that batch of lineups are then adjusted to account for that news. Now unless you have the capability to do that, then simply understand that there will be nights when the no late swap helps you, and nights when it hurts you. Yet know you’re on a much leveler playing field with no late swap.

    The GPPs most casual players are playing in are limited to twenty entries, so that theory no longer holds any water.

  • Njsum1

    @depalma13 said...

    The GPPs most casual players are playing in are limited to twenty entries, so that theory no longer holds any water.

    Sure it does, now it can just be done manually. My point was that many people think late swap just means they get to swap out a scratch. Yet most pros will do just what I said with 20 lineups, whereas most casuals don’t have the time or desire to do that.

    I know I don’t want to make 5 lineups, then leave another 5 totally blank, then another 5 half full, then another five 75 percent blank. Then adjust from 7 to 1030…I want to make my lineups and be done with it, and enjoy the night.

    Edit : I’m for being allowed to do a 1v1 swap or getting like 4 to 5 times the late scratches salary, just not a full late swap as it clearly benefits more serious players

  • bigez952

    @jpwinds said...

    Maybe you are on to something there. Make $100 an higher contests late swappable. Site might like that as it might push a few mid range players into that contest level

    Both sites offer late swap games at all price levels already so players can choose to enter them. The problem is no one is entering these games and they consistently have been overlay in them so now they are down to super small tournaments just so the sites stop losing money on them.

  • bigez952

    @lggarruto said...

    are the casual players spending $333 and up in a lineup, I highly doubt it and if they are then they better make it their business to be by a damn phone. As a casual player I would much rather have a chance to protect my investment on a late scratch then throw away $. they should make the small gpps the non late swap for the casual player.

    The price of the contest has 0 to do this issue. Draftkings also already offers late swap and non late swap games so if the users that consistently play contests $333 and up they could easily make that work as there are very few users that actually play in the games that high.

  • Zieg30

    • 787

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @bigez952 said...

    The price of the contest has 0 to do this issue. Draftkings also already offers late swap and non late swap games so if the users that consistently play contests $333 and up they could easily make that work as there are very few users that actually play in the games that high.

    As has been said repeatedly, DK is hardly offering both types of contests. The late swap contests aren’t even worth playing for 99% of us. That does not mean that the majority of folks prefer non-late swap, it just means that the number one preference is contest size. Number two could be late-swap. We’ll never know unless a site offers both options with the same contest size.

    I prefer non late-swap myself, but wouldn’t be surprised if the majority of DFS’ers who care about it prefer late swap.

  • jimmyd1507

    @bigez952 said...

    I 100% agree with this that late swap hurts the average DFS player with a family and greatly benefits pros or people that have all night free to monitor news. I am in the same situation where I am really limited to getting my lineups built before lock and then after that it is dinner time and getting the kids ready for bed. Once everyone is in bed then I have my first opportunity to pick up my phone again and see how my lineups are doing.

    I mean… how much time does it take to receive a notification on your phone, and then to go swap out that player for someone else? All of, maybe 4 minutes?

    I’m not a shark, or a pro, but I am a 28 year old dude with no kids and a fiance who allows me to play on my phone past 8:00 pm. Its rather annoying to NOT have the Late Swap because there’s simply no reason not to other than ‘some people don’t have time’.

    Then maybe you shouldn’t be playing? Just a thought.

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