INDUSTRY FORUM

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  • DraftKings_CM

    • DraftKings Representative

    We’d like to formally announce the following DFS scoring changes we have made for the 2019 NHL season, as well as the addition of Showdown Captain Mode:

    We are implementing these scoring changes in response to community & user feedback sourced over the course of a year-long-plus research process in an effort to grow NHL DFS. Though we heard a wide range of user feedback, they all followed the same theme: NHL scoring needed more excitement. We believe these changes accomplish the intent without compromising the nature of our existing NHL DFS product.

    Our survey results also showed nearly 75% of users wanted a Captain spot in Showdown Mode. The addition of Showdown Captain Mode is in alignment with our other DFS sport offerings, it has been proven to grow different sports across DFS & data has shown it to be a catalyst for the growth of Showdown.

    Showdown Captain Mode is especially effective in bringing new users into a sport. Bringing more new users into NHL DFS will help us to offer larger GPPs as the sport grows, a clear benefit to everyone in our user base.

    Another data supported effort we’ve implemented to increase scoring are Bonuses. We carefully sorted through options for Bonuses to reward great performances, while avoiding a resulting scenario where Bonuses would be the primary source of scoring. Based on the data sourced from last season, we are confident in the scoring proportion of this mix.

    The change to goalie scoring with the addition of 2 FPTS for an Overtime Loss falls in alignment with NHL goalie statistics having not two, but three potential game results (W-L-OT), with each of the three being scored differently (6FPTS -0FPTS-2PTS in DFS scoring, 2PTS-0PTS-1PT in NHL standings). In Classic Mode, a win was previously valued as 15 additional saves, whereas now the number is closer to 9 additional saves.

    DFS innovation, whether it’s increased scoring or Captain Showdown Mode, has been effective in growing other sports we offer. The data we gathered through community sentiment, our Voice of the Player committee, user interviews, and numerous user surveys supported innovative solutions to enhance the sweat of NHL DFS. Increased scoring has been proven to grow games and growing the game will support the larger GPPs we intend to offer.

    - DraftKings Community Team

  • Zieg30

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @SA16 said...

    How does it make it less enjoyable to not have the goalies performance absolutely massively dependent on whether or not his teams skaters score goals? 60% of an average goalie score used to be determined by whether or not players that he has nothing to do with played well.

    The quality of shots a goalie faces, and how many he lets in, is also heavily dependent on the team in front of him and how they perform defensively. Should we not score goals against goalies when they are one-timers that the goalie had no chance to stop? Should we lessen scoring for goalies on teams which have good low-danger scoring chance stats? Going down the road of “only scoring stats that players have direct control over” leaves us with very few options.

    I ultimately don’t see how it’s enjoyable for the scoring to make 5 shots much more important than 4, or 3 blocks much more important than 2, or 35 shots against much more important than 34, etc., above and beyond the normal scoring one gets for just having these successful events occur.

  • DraftKings_CM

    • DraftKings Representative

    Not that big of a deal as I have his actual proj somewhere but please get that corrected for 2019 games.

    This is a known issue but we anticipate a solution to be in place soon. In the meantime, we appreciate your patience until the fix has been deployed.

    I ultimately don’t see how it’s enjoyable for the scoring to make 5 shots much more important than 4, or 3 blocks much more important than 2, or 35 shots against much more important than 34, etc., above and beyond the normal scoring one gets for just having these successful events occur.

    What you described here is what draws many of our users to DFS in the first place – the sweat. The very nature of DFS is that success can sometimes be measured as the difference between 34 and 35 shots saved in NHL or 99 and 100 yards in NFL, it’s all the same. Not to mention, these new bonuses bring added value to some of the players that don’t light up the lamp every night.

    Although your opinion may differ, others crave the ‘edge of their seat’ feeling they have when they’re pulling for that 35th save or that 5th block. Those bonus points could represent the difference between cashing & not cashing just as they do for NFL.

    Make it Reign!

    - DraftKings Community Team

  • Taterchipdip

    Love the new NHL scoring except if you have a goalie who is leading late in the game and he gives up garbage time goals. That can drop you out of the money real quick!!

  • ryanprzy

    @DraftKings_CM said...

    Those bonus points could represent the difference between cashing & not cashing

    …And that’s exactly why the bonuses are not a good thing if you’re trying to avoid DFS being called gambling.

    Get rid of the bonuses in every sport!

  • SkateFiend

    Hockey contests at DK is almost like playing baseball contests now, I’ll approach their contests accordingly.

  • Zieg30

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @DraftKings_CM said...

    What you described here is what draws many of our users to DFS in the first place – the sweat. The very nature of DFS is that success can sometimes be measured as the difference between 34 and 35 shots saved in NHL or 99 and 100 yards in NFL, it’s all the same. Not to mention, these new bonuses bring added value to some of the players that don’t light up the lamp every night.

    Although your opinion may differ, others crave the ‘edge of their seat’ feeling they have when they’re pulling for that 35th save or that 5th block. Those bonus points could represent the difference between cashing & not cashing just as they do for NFL.

    Had my first sweat of the season last night with a lineup in 8th in the $33 GPP going into the last remaining game.

    The sweat was no more enjoyable than prior years. Indeed, the sweat on DK had ALWAYS been enjoyable because there were plenty of opportunities for points and it was possible to understand what I needed to have happen without too much effort.

    Instead, it was a bit less enjoyable last night because I had to dig back much deeper in the standings and do so frequently to determine who was getting closer and who might be able to catch up because of the silly bonuses. It made it much harder to keep track of what was needed and what it was necessary to avoid, and that made the sweat less enjoyable overall.

    One thing DK has always had over FD was how much better it was to follow the live action on the site. DK’s tournament page and scoring updates are top notch, but the implementation of additional random bonuses made it more difficult to enjoy.

    In reviewing social media, including some tweets by higher volume players, I see that I am not alone in this opinion.

  • dayman

    Under the old scoring system I could figure out roughly (or many times exactly) what I was rooting for/against, which made the “sweat” WAY more enjoyable. Under the new scoring system I have no idea what I’m “sweating” because there’s just way too many variables in play.

  • alwvufan

    They’ve made NHL just like ever other sport; you have to have the player that breaks the slate to cash or you have no chance… Also, if you have a player that doesn’t perform, its nearly impossibly to now cash. Just another sport where it leans heavily to the max entry players.

  • DraftKings_CM

    • DraftKings Representative

    Although we hear each and every voice, our product decisions are ultimately made in favor of the majority and the good of the ecosystem. After analyzing the data we collected from the multiple user surveys we sent out, it was determined that the majority of users supported bonuses & increased scoring.

    We would not have made these scoring changes if we didn’t feel it was the right thing to do for NHL DFS and for the NHL DFS users. However, we do understand it’s impossible to please everyone with every decision we make. Once we review scoring & NHL DFS engagement at the end of the year, we will once again evaluate the resulting data for opportunities for change or improvement. This is the same process we followed this past spring before landing on these scoring changes.

    Make it Reign!

    - DraftKings Community Team

  • Zieg30

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    It’s unfortunate that your review will wait until the end of the year.

    Last night a losing goalie who gave up 4 goals scored 19 points, while the winning goalie in that game who gave up 3 goals scored 6 points. I understand placing some greater importance on saves, but that disparity in points between a winning goalie who gave up fewer goals and the losing goalie who gave up more goals is absurd on its face.

  • Beetlebum

    100% agree with Zieg30, alwvufan and dayman.
    The new scoring system makes the sweat more confusing, makes it impossible to cash if you have a low performer and creates some absurd situations (the goalie one mentioned above… or the fact that a player with 5 SOG now gets more points than someone with 2 Assists).
    Such as shame.

  • suerte41

    NHL DK-scoring before this season was not broken. Why did DK have to mess with it???
    Why can’t they just change back to the old way? It’s that simple.
    New NHL DK-scoring = Total garbage.

  • lorridfs

    A goalie who gives up 3 goals on 18 shots is just terrible. I will take 40 saves and 4 goals allowed and a L over that trash every day. No scoring system is going to be perfect and totally appease everyone, but I have had zero issues with adjusting to the new scoring system.

  • Zieg30

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @Beetlebum said...

    or the fact that a player with 5 SOG now gets more points than someone with 2 Assists

    Ouch. I hadn’t even focused on this one.

    In what world should 5 SOG be valued over 2 assists?

  • DraftKings_CM

    • DraftKings Representative

    As we’ve said, we understand that many (but not all) of you here on RotoGrinders do not prefer these changes, and that is ok. We want everyone to know that we do hear you, your voices are not being ignored. Everyone’s opinion is important and valid, yet we should reiterate that our product decisions are made in favor of the majority. Our data shows that the majority of users surveyed supported these changes, we are seeing a lot of comments in support of how exciting the NHL contests have become. Data also supports the changes, user engagement is up dramatically year over year, and in turn we are finding new opportunities to grow contest prize pools.

    We at DraftKings, just like any competing provider in the industry, strive for change & innovation as means of growing DFS – a stale product is a product falling behind. We are confident in that, over time, all our users will adjust. Many already have & prefer this new scoring system!

    Make it Reign!

    - DraftKings Community Team

    PS: Keep an eye out for the anniversary of a landmark event in NHL history next week ;)

  • hautalak

    I’m sorry DK but I just do not believe your “majority” (until I see some stats) you keep pumping out here. I know RG isn’t the end all be all but I have not seen any positive comments here so far.

    And just because user engagement is up does not mean it’s because of a scoring change (which “new” people wouldn’t even know about).

    Who did you survey? (because it sure seems like none of us were part of this survey)

    IMO nobody will adjust to these scores, we will just deal with them until you ultimately decide to switch it back (which I’m like 80% sure is going to happen).

  • SA16

    @hautalak said...

    I’m sorry DK but I just do not believe your “majority” (until I see some stats) you keep pumping out here. I know RG isn’t the end all be all but I have not seen any positive comments here so far.

    And just because user engagement is up does not mean it’s because of a scoring change (which “new” people wouldn’t even know about).

    Who did you survey? (because it sure seems like none of us were part of this survey)

    IMO nobody will adjust to these scores, we will just deal with them until you ultimately decide to switch it back (which I’m like 80% sure is going to happen).

    I like all the changes.

    That said I don’t really buy this “survey” stuff too. As one of the higher volume NHL players on DK and with consulting with several others I don’t know a single person who was presented with any sort of survey regarding potential changes.

  • mattspot10

    @SA16 said...

    I like all the changes.

    That said I don’t really buy this “survey” stuff too. As one of the higher volume NHL players on DK and with consulting with several others I don’t know a single person who was presented with any sort of survey regarding potential changes.

    If you don’t mind me asking, what is it you like about the new scoring system? I’m a low stakes player so I’m not claiming to have any sway in the situation at all but I agree that the changes have only increased the randomness of NHL DFS.

    Do you agree that the strategy for goalies is play the ones whose defense is Swiss cheese and hope they don’t get pulled? Goalies are now punished for playing behind a good defensive team that doesn’t allow many chances? It has already been shown several times this year that a losing goalie who faces a large number of shots, yet gives up more goals, will score higher (sometimes significantly so) than a winning goalie who faces a smaller number of shots and gives up fewer goals because the system is weighted far too heavily to a higher shot volume, especially with the 35 save bonus.

    And do you agree that a player who takes five shots in a game should score higher than a player who gets two assists in a game? While shots are important and will lead to assists quite often, a five shot bonus is overkill.

    I’d love to hear your opinion as well as anyone else who cares to chime in.

  • jjwd

    @mattspot10 said...

    I’d love to hear your opinion as well as anyone else who cares to chime in.

    Seems like DK wants to create more of a lottery feel to their low buy in contests. This has been going on for some time with the very high payouts to first place. The new scoring system accords with the lotto mentality amongst the lower stakes.

    Perhaps the sharks and whales are happy with the new scoring because correlation power is effectively reduced, and this benefits someone with a projection system (evaluating individual players).

  • Zieg30

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @DraftKings_CM said...

    As we’ve said, we understand that many (but not all) of you here on RotoGrinders do not prefer these changes, and that is ok. We want everyone to know that we do hear you, your voices are not being ignored. Everyone’s opinion is important and valid, yet we should reiterate that our product decisions are made in favor of the majority. Our data shows that the majority of users surveyed supported these changes, we are seeing a lot of comments in support of how exciting the NHL contests have become. Data also supports the changes, user engagement is up dramatically year over year, and in turn we are finding new opportunities to grow contest prize pools.

    We at DraftKings, just like any competing provider in the industry, strive for change & innovation as means of growing DFS – a stale product is a product falling behind. We are confident in that, over time, all our users will adjust. Many already have & prefer this new scoring system!

    Make it Reign!

    - DraftKings Community Team

    PS: Keep an eye out for the anniversary of a landmark event in NHL history next week ;)

    As others here have said, where is this majority? I didn’t get a survey. No one I know who plays often whom I have asked has said they received a survey.

    You are also likely mistaking correlation for causation. That you changed the scoring (to everyone’s detriment) is not plausibly the driver of the growth.

    Your product wasn’t stale. The scoring was simply good as is. Not all innovation is good innovation. GOOD innovation that makes sense is what you should be striving for, not change for change’s sake. What you have done to the NHL product this season is “innovation” that has made the game more random and forced your entrants to make nonsensical plays that do not align with the fundamentals of the sport we are following in order to succeed.

    Edit: I should soften this because I really do love the contest sizes DK has been offering this season in pushing the NHL product harder. While I dislike the scoring changes, and still have issues with DK’s top heavy contest payouts at times, the guarantees are really refreshing to see. So thanks to DK for that. Now please fix the scoring/lottery-style payouts. Good day.

  • pokerrob1970

    DraftDay BLB Finalist

    @Zieg30 said...

    As others here have said, where is this majority? I didn’t get a survey. No one I know who plays often whom I have asked has said they received a survey.

    Exactly.

  • benrocket

    I took a survey back in June about NHL.

  • DraftKings_CM

    • DraftKings Representative

    I’m sorry DK but I just do not believe your “majority” (until I see some stats) you keep pumping out here. I know RG isn’t the end all be all but I have not seen any positive comments here so far.

    Its ok, we aren’t asking you to believe anything – but we are sharing facts. We have no reason to do otherwise, anyone who has been watching our involvement in RG knows that we are open and honest. There have been numerous times where we have acknowledged changes were needed, in this case our results have been positive which points towards success contrary to some opinions. This scenario reminds me a bit of when we launched Showdown, at first there was a lot of negative voices – over time people embraced Showdown with open arms – and our ecosystem grew bigger than ever as a result. We predict the scoring changes will have a similar effect, growing NHL activity to new heights.

    As others here have said, where is this majority? I didn’t get a survey. No one I know who plays often whom I have asked has said they received a survey.

    Respectfully, this small group’s opinions are important to us. ALL player’s opinions are important to us! With that said, it does not well represent the majority of players because there are just a handful of NHL active players in this thread.

    We utilize numerous sources for research inclusive of third party agencies, an in-house research agency, and multiple active surveys. Additionally we turn to the power of data science, with an army of analysts that help us make critical decisions by modeling future outcomes. Our decisions aren’t made because “we think it’s a good idea”, there is an entire army of researchers that assure the data we review points us in the right way.

    Our goal is to make an exciting game that helps grow the sport. NHL was underperforming the prior two seasons, now we are seeing growth that is (currently) exceeding our projections. With that said, we also acknowledge that we cannot please everyone, all the time. On the bright side, everyone loves bigger GPPs, and so far that’s exactly what we are delivering with player demand to match!

    Edit: I should soften this because I really do love the contest sizes DK has been offering this season in pushing the NHL product harder. While I dislike the scoring changes, and still have issues with DK’s top heavy contest payouts at times, the guarantees are really refreshing to see. So thanks to DK for that.

    We increase contest size when our projections tell us that the player demand exists. The excitement created by the new scoring has increased interest from players who were not as active in the past. As a result, there are more active players in our NHL contests, and the game is growing at a rate that exceeds projections – a clear win for all!

    I took a survey back in June about NHL.

    Thnx for confirming we aren’t crazy ;-)

    I like all the changes.
    That said I don’t really buy this “survey” stuff too. As one of the higher volume NHL players on DK and with consulting with several others I don’t know a single person who was presented with any sort of survey regarding potential changes.

    Glad you like the changes SA! Anytime we make changes to scoring in any sport there is a period of time where there is a lot of doubt and uncertainty. Over time players evolve their models, and then we often see those same players who were formerly detractors become big fans.

    As for the survey, ask yourself who should we be targeting – the most active NHL players, users who are not currently NHL players that we identify as potential NHL DFS fans, or both? We also set our sights on users who stopped playing NHL contests in the past – the net result was a desire to create an exciting contest format that matches the excitement on the ice.

    Make it Reign!

    - DraftKings Community Team

  • hautalak

    I disagree with you saying you are not asking us to “believe you” but that debate will never be settled.

    The fact of the matter is how can you be sure the scoring change is what is bringing in the new players? IMO most of the “new” players wouldn’t even have known about the scoring change. I would imagine things like “achievements” are what is bringing in more of the players again after the success from last year and opening of $0.10 contests.

    It will never happen but I would like for peoples’ wallets to decide. Maybe just two “featured” contests one with the “new” scoring and one with the “old” scoring. I get people would enter both but you have the contest data to see unique users. I know this is not practical as it would take some extra effort and could have results that were still flawed. I guess I just want to see some “facts” (from the data studies you have) and confirm your stance.

    In the end it doesn’t matter as I will still keep playing NHL on DK, I just wanted it noted I prefer the old scoring. And no this scenario and showdown are not even remotely the same!!!

    And believe it or not the scoring has “helped” me more than hurt me and I still want it gone! It’s a completely different (in a bad way) game now.

    I appreciate you coming on here all the time after getting ripped time and time again. So thank you for that!

  • Zieg30

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @hautalak said...

    I appreciate you coming on here all the time after getting ripped time and time again. So thank you for that!

    I’d echo this, as the engagement, even with sometimes harsh opinions (like mine can be), is appreciated

    That said, I’d also echo the remainder of hautalak’s post.

    With respect to the increased NHL interest, correlation does not equal causation. It’s a bit chicken and egg, but I would think that the number one driver of user interest is contest size. The larger the GPPs, the more interest in them there is. Folks want to play for more money, after all. Of course, you can’t regularly offer increased contest sizes without more interest, so again, it’s murky territory. I just don’t see why some scoring tweaks (which, in my opinion, make DK’s tournaments more confusing and difficult to follow) could be a plausible cause.

    I also still think the bonuses are so fundamentally flawed. Last night, VGK won their game 5-2. Fleury made 36 saves. SJS won their game 3-1. Jones made 33 saves.

    Fleury got 28.7 points. Jones got 24.9. That just seems wrong. Fleury faced only 3 more shots, and gave up 1 more goal, but he still got a sizable number of points more than Jones. I understand that a scoring system can’t account for all eventualities, and even under the old scoring there were times that losing goalies could get more points than winning ones if the losing goalie faced a lot of shots and gave up a couple goals while the winning goalie won 4-3, etc., and faced very few shots, but these situations were (and should be) outliers.

    Instead, now, we are regularly seeing simply odd outcomes with goalie scoring. Losing goalies have regularly outscored winning ones. Goalies who have given up more goals have regularly outscored those who have given up fewer. That just shouldn’t happen with any regularity.

    Simply removing the 3 point 35-save bonus would go a long way towards fixing this (though doing that in a vacuum may distort the scoring system overall, so you could remove the bonus and at the same slightly lower negative points for goals against and slightly increase points for wins).

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