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  • mike291md

    What is the general consensus on people multi-entering the same lineup from a single username into a tourney? Just tonight, in the NBA $0.25 Arcade, a guy takes 21 of the first 22 winning spots because he had 21 entries of his 1 lineup. So 21 spots of prize money are now cut into by a single lineup being multi-entered by a single user. I think this is part of what is killing the fun of doing these tourneys. You’re not just against someone with 20 lineups that are different, you are also against guys who max enter the same lineup 20 times.

    Aside from single entry, would really like to see tourneys offered where a single username cannot multi-enter the exact same lineup combination more than ONCE. A user should not take up a large percentage of the prize pool with 1 LINEUP combination. To me, that’s ridiculous and it looks terrible.

    Tonight’s tourney:

    https://www.draftkings.com/contest/gamecenter/52554349?uc=991580006

    username: jcjones1111

  • superstars92

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    These posts are very funny.

    When users submit 150 different lineups, the complaint is “max entry guys have such a huge advantage because they can diversify with 150 lineups”

    When users submit 150 of the same, single lineup (or 21 in this case), there are still complaints, when if anything, should help you since it’s 21 of the same lineup instead of 21 different lineups.

    It’s actually very -EV in a GPP to submit 21 of the same lineups, so you should be thankful you are playing someone like this. Thanks for providing his username. I would love to play him H2H every night. Should be +EV for me in the long run.

  • superstars92

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    @mike291md said...

    You all ever heard of MaxDelury?? Yea I bet you have. Tell him your theories on variance and negative -ev while he’s counting his profits.

    What profits?

  • mike291md

    @jjwd said...

    Bottom line Mike291… you got unlucky, but what happened to you is very rare. Most people think trains in GPP is a bad strategy because tournaments are top heavy. Therefore diversifying your lineups gives you an advantage when trying to bink one. When people max enter, they often rotate around a certain core of players. A train essentially provides you with a minuscule core of players. In my opinion a lot of posters here are too mean-spirited when answering questions. But many DFS concepts are complicated or counter-intuitive, even to a veteran player. Keep your head up buddy. GL

    Thanks man. Yea people aren’t understanding that I’m not arguing against the dude winning, I’m arguing that it’s a bad look to have one dude with one lineup combo take up 20 some spots in a prize pool finish. I have no problem with me not being in 1st place last night. I have a problem with me being pushed down to 50th because some dude is taking 20 spots on a single combination. You should have to enter a different lineup combination because it looks ridiculous the way it was last night and provides less incentive to come back and play the tournaments.

    I don’t have a problem with someone doing 20 lineups that are different. I have issue with the single lineup combination being allowed multiple times because then you have a XYZ username taking up all the spots on the final board.

  • jmo26

    @mike291md said...

    Yes but what about for players who don’t mind tourneys with multi-entry that just don’t want lineup trains in said tourneys??

    Too bad.

    The optics of trains may be bad for those who are new to DFS and know very little about EV, variance, etc., but trains are not a legitimate problem, and will have zero impact on the industry.

  • mike291md

    @superstars92 said...

    When users submit 150 different lineups, the complaint is “max entry guys have such a huge advantage because they can diversify with 150 lineups”

    That’s actually not my complaint. I was just saying that it is already hard enough just to place in the money with all the different lineup combinations. Now you tack on lineup trains pushing lineups out the money as well and the tournaments become even more difficult. Keep in mind, the more ridiculous these tournaments become just to place in, the more people are going to stop playing eventually, in my opinion.

    Having a multi-entry lineup limit was a step in the right direction to protecting player interests. Stopping the lineup trains would be a similar step in the right direction in my personal opinion.

    And the argument that “I can do it too!” isn’t valid. That’s not a solution. So if one guy robs a bank, and I’m not happy with bank robberies, I should rob a bank too?? Right, lol.

  • mike291md

    @jmo26 said...

    Too bad.

    The optics of trains may be bad for those who are new to DFS and know very little about EV, variance, etc., but trains are not a legitimate problem, and will have zero impact on the industry.

    Are you a lineup train guy? So what about a lineup makes you want to enter it 20 times into a tournament? I’ve made lineups I loved and I’ve never sat there and said, “You know what, I need to put this lineup in the SAME TOURNAMENT 20 times.” Now I can understand the logic behind putting the same lineup in different tourneys because you’re confident in it.

    Why shouldn’t there be tourneys where lineup trains aren’t allowed? Aren’t options a good thing in forms of entertainment like this?

  • KindGuy

    You’re just being bitter. Go outside and get some fresh air then regroup.

  • mike291md

    @elementasrat said...

    You’re just being bitter. Go outside and get some fresh air then regroup.

    Good for you. You learned how to post a thought without needing a meme.

  • sochoice

    • 2017 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2017 FanDuel WFFC Champion

    After thinking about this a bit, I am starting to move towards the OP’s point. In fact, I have some other suggestions to buttress the OP’s thought that trains in a multi-entry GPP could be a menace to the DFS industry. Thus, here are my suggestions:

    1) When multi-entering lineups in a GPP, players should not be allowed to use the same lineups in multiple entries. Also, players can’t use the same players in more than one lineup. In addition, players can’t use players from the same team in more than one lineup. And finally, players that have the same colored uniforms can only be used together in one lineup.
    2) If Russell Westbrook is on the slate, he can only be used in one of the lineups entered into a contest. That is unless mike291md objects to that, then only he can use Westbrook and no one else can.
    3) In addition to rules #1 and #2, entrants must submit their lineups to mike291md before multi-entering the tournament. He is allowed to alter them however he pleases and only then will the lineups be officially entered into a contest.
    4) If someone other than mike291md happens to be winning a tournament, they are required to share their profits with him since they clearly did something wrong/shady to be in the top position.

    That should just about do it.

  • mike291md

    @sochoice said...

    After thinking about this a bit, I am starting to move towards the OP’s point. In fact, I have some other suggestions to buttress the OP’s thought that trains in a multi-entry GPP could be a menace to the DFS industry. Thus, here are my suggestions:

    1) When multi-entering lineups in a GPP, players should not be allowed to use the same lineups in multiple entries. Also, players can’t use the same players in more than one lineup. In addition, players can’t use players from the same team in more than one lineup. And finally, players that have the same colored uniforms can only be used together in one lineup.
    2) If Russell Westbrook is on the slate, he can only be used in one of the lineups entered into a contest. That is unless mike291md objects to that, then only he can use Westbrook and no one else can.
    3) In addition to rules #1 and #2, entrants must submit their lineups to mike291md before multi-entering the tournament. He is allowed to alter them however he pleases and only then will the lineups be officially entered into a contest.
    4) If someone other than mike291md happens to be winning a tournament, they are required to share their profits with him since they clearly did something wrong/shady to be in the op position.

    That should just about do it.

    I like it! You know to cater to your guys’ point I think the sites should do LINEUP TRAIN NIGHT where you can only enter if you plan to enter one lineup combination 20 times because you have balls of steel. Call it the BALLS OF STEEL TOURNAMENT. Then we can all watch as 5 guys take down the ENTIRE PRIZE POOL. LOL :)

  • jmo26

    @mike291md said...

    Are you a lineup train guy? So what about a lineup makes you want to enter it 20 times into a tournament?

    I’m not, because it’s a bad strategy (in GPPs). I certainly don’t have an issue with others doing trains though — 9 times out of 10, it’s going to be to my advantage.

    As for train-free contests, they shouldn’t be offered because trains aren’t a legitimate issue. Nobody would play them.

    EDIT: I should note I’ve had trains before, but only because something came up and I didn’t have time to set my lineups.

  • jokerswild22

    GPP cash lines are usually around the same as double up lines. So I don’t think training is as -EV as you guys make it seem. Min cashing, of course, isn’t the same as a double up but the upside is higher.

  • jjwd

    @jokerswild22 said...

    GPP cash lines are usually around the same as double up lines. So I don’t think training is as -EV as you guys make it seem. Min cashing, of course, isn’t the same as a double up but the upside is higher.

    Interesting point

  • Razzle11

    What about this side of it…what about all the guys that decided to train their entries in that same GPP that you were in and you managed to beat them? What if they had made 20, 50, 150 separate lineups? I would bet you might have finished lower…..

  • wildcatfan9698

    your issue is with DK, take it up with them

  • DSofM

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    @Shipmymoney said...

    Opponents running trains in tournaments helps your bottom line. I assume OP is new to DFS but I would suggest learning about variance and how to not be results oriented sooner rather than later or it’s going to be an incredibly frustrating game

    Yeah I realized after my post that it’s actually just purely +EV if others are running trains but I hadn’t considered every outcome when I made my OP.

  • tmspriggs

    Especially in nba contests where late news destroys all your plans and there is no late swap, you have to be allowed to run trains. If a must play situation comes up in the last few seconds before lock, your only recourse may be copying a new lineup over all your previous entries.

  • vino24

    @mike291md said...

    Fair point. Wouldn’t the overall better solution be to try and eliminate trains altogether? I don’t see why someone needs to re-enter one lineup 20 plus times into one tournament. Then say the prize pool is $1,000 total, they end up winning say 80% of that prize pool and simultaneously push lineups OUT the money. This makes GPP’s, which are already a MAJOR longshot to win, even more so of a longshot. Even more reason not to play those because they are so toxic due to issues like this one.

    I think you lost me here, I’m pretty sure sure its more of a longshot to win a GPP with someone max entering 150 different lineups than it is 150 of the same lineup. I know I have entered numerous of the same lineup on occasion into a GPP with the intent of treating it sort of as a double up with the possibility of making 4-5x or higher if it hits.

  • mike291md

    Just my personal opinion, but it looks terrible when these trains are taking up a majority of the prize pool. Take the science out of it and just take it from a cosmetic level, how does something that looks like this look good? When someone plays a tourney and sees the final scoreboard looking like below, you’re telling me all the lineups that got pushed out of money/good money are supposed to feel good about this lineup train concept?

    1st – Train Lineup
    2nd – Train Lineup
    3rd – Train Lineup
    4th-20th Train Lineup
    21st Random Lineup
    22-40th Another Train Lineup

    As you see, all it takes is just two trains in that example to not only take down the majority of the prize pool (the top end of the pool specifically) but also pushes the cashing line way up now because you got a perfect lineup combination taking at least 20 spots.

    This train thing + needing a darn near perfect lineup every night + rake going up are 3 things that will kill incentive to play daily fantasy if it doesn’t change imo. Just my take, though, maybe I’m wrong. I don’t know, seems like to me the prize pools are nowhere near as nice as they used to be and meanwhile rake has gone up so I guess that doesn’t exactly represent a flourishing economy. Again, though, maybe I’m wrong. I don’t have data to back the claim up.

    But if I’m right and less people are playing, then I guarantee it has something to do with all the clown show stuff like this train thing that goes on in the GPPs. A similar issue being lineup selling/sharing, shark hunting in cash games, etc.

  • KindGuy

    Don’t like it? Don’t play.

  • bhdevault

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    Going to go ahead and move this into the rants/slants and dance forum as it’s really not getting anywhere at this point. The OP is welcome to his opinion, however, there simply isn’t any rules on any site that limits the amount of the same lineup that can be entered in a contest.

    Thanks.

  • Razzle11

    @Razzle11 said...

    What about this side of it…what about all the guys that decided to train their entries in that same GPP that you were in and you managed to beat them? What if they had made 20, 50, 150 separate lineups? I would bet you might have finished lower…..

    skip right over this part and only focus on the ones that pass you……

  • mike291md

    @elementasrat said...

    Don’t like it? Don’t play.

    Keep saying that to people, then when enough people stop playing, you won’t be playing anymore, either.

  • DSofM

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    @mike291md said...

    Just my personal opinion, but it looks terrible when these trains are taking up a majority of the prize pool. Take the science out of it and just take it from a cosmetic level, how does something that looks like this look good? When someone plays a tourney and sees the final scoreboard looking like below, you’re telling me all the lineups that got pushed out of money/good money are supposed to feel good about this lineup train concept?

    1st – Train Lineup
    2nd – Train Lineup
    3rd – Train Lineup
    4th-20th Train Lineup
    21st Random Lineup
    22-40th Another Train Lineup

    As you see, all it takes is just two trains in that example to not only take down the majority of the prize pool (the top end of the pool specifically) but also pushes the cashing line way up now because you got a perfect lineup combination taking at least 20 spots.

    This train thing + needing a darn near perfect lineup every night + rake going up are 3 things that will kill incentive to play daily fantasy if it doesn’t change imo. Just my take, though, maybe I’m wrong. I don’t know, seems like to me the prize pools are nowhere near as nice as they used to be and meanwhile rake has gone up so I guess that doesn’t exactly represent a flourishing economy. Again, though, maybe I’m wrong. I don’t have data to back the claim up.

    But if I’m right and less people are playing, then I guarantee it has something to do with all the clown show stuff like this train thing that goes on in the GPPs. A similar issue being lineup selling/sharing, shark hunting in cash games, etc.

    No offense but you have some smart people in here telling you how wrong you are. You’re in the minority and just upset that the one time you had a good line you had it ruined by a train. Focus on self improvement instead of complaining about how unfair things are, it will get you further.

  • mike291md

    @JoeFlacco05 said...

    No offense but you have some smart people in here telling you how wrong you are. You’re in the minority and just upset that the one time you had a good line you had it ruined by a train. Focus on self improvement instead of complaining about how unfair things are, it will get you further.

    No offense taken. I hear where you guys are coming from but I stand firm that the train thing is yet another issue that looks terrible at the end of the day in tourney standings. It’s not just about me losing, of course I wasn’t happy that the train pushed me way down the line. It’s the fact that it makes GPP’s, which are already nearly impossible to win due to needing essentially perfect lineup combinations, even more insane to win now because you also have to fight off some guy with a perfect lineup that was entered 20 times.

    The more insane it becomes just to place in GPPs, the less people are going to be attracted to them long-term. Online poker tourneys rewarded people in a perfect fashion where they felt rewarding even if you didn’t place in the final table. On top of that, you didn’t have ONE guy’s train take up a whole final table and prize pool. The GPPs are already top heavy, now you got some guy taking up the first 20 some spots. To me, that’s not healthy.

    It’s all good, though. It’s just my personal opinion on it. Seems like the majority in the forums don’t mind them.

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