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  • Mphst18

    I am using the analysis of data to draw a conclusion and ask questions in the alleged scenario (the data is not alleged it is actual data). My views are not to be interpreted as fact but to allow individuals to determine if they feel they are playing a game with integrity or one that is monitoring for violations of entry limits and rules.

    Is this a form of circumventing Entry limits and or an alternate form of multi accounting (regardless of if they are actually two individuals)

    If two brothers or individuals take 50% of each others winnings and agree to risk the same amount every night (enter the same contests with the same number of entries) is this a violation guidelines/rule. Of note they may not technically be “pooling entry fees” as brother A does not send brother B any money for entry fees they just sum up or net profit at the end of the night and reconcile.

    They max enter every gpp mlb contest (for the max entries below 150 they don’t overlap entries (they may also not overlap for 150 but I am not digging through all that data as DK supposedly has a game integrity department that is supposed to be monitoring this stuff).

    Let’s look at 9/13 2016 data, the data for 9/6 shows the same as well and we can look at 9/20 data when that’s available: (my guess here it’s the same every day but just taking the Tue slates as that’s the big prize for DK)

    MLB $600K Power Hitter ($444, 45 max) – Chipolteaddict 45 entries, papagates 45 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $30K Warning Track ($150, 3 max) – Chipolteaddict 3 entries, papagates 3 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $5K Deep Mini Moonshot ($3, 50 max) – Chipolteaddict 50 entries, papagates 50 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $10K Slider ($3, 3max) – Chipolteaddict 3 entries, papagates 3 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $150K Payoff Pitch ($27, 150 max) – Chipolteaddict 150 entries, papagates 150 entries (I am not digging through 150 to determine overlap or not, other people are supposedly paid to do this)

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    If it can be proven they are working together/sharing profits, then yes, this would seem to clearly be against Draftkings Community Guidelines.

  • biglucky

    • x2

      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2016 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    just a stupid question but sorry, if this can be proven is this not criminal?

  • Mphst18

    Correct that is the challenge and why there most likely will never be any outcome but at least then you as an individual can decide if you as well want to utilize this tactic or not play since they choose not to do anything about it.

    Obviously when posed with the question the response would be nope we don’t share, but I don’t think it is hard for those involved or looking at things to analyze the data and form an opinion:

    Is it common knowledge they work together: Yes
    Are the entering the exact same number of entries in mlb gpps night in and night out: Yes
    Is there any lineup overlap where there are entry limits below 150: NO
    Have there been other accusations that they sit three man contests together and unreg if its not a fish or someone they don’t want to play in a 3 man: Yes

  • colinwdrew

    • 117

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    • Ranked #78

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    • 2018 DraftKings FHWC Finalist

    • 2018 DraftKings NFL KOTB Finalist

    Lot of circumstantial evidence that looks bad but in America you are innocent until proven guilty. In order for this to be against the rules they would have to either be a) building complementary lineups, or b) one person building all the lineups and the other entering them. I’m not sure which one you think is occurring – you seem to take issue when people have the same lineups and again when people have different lineups – but nothing provided makes me think that occurred since most lineups don’t overlap for any users.

    What percent of lineups in those contests were dupes from other users? I checked the last MLB contest I played and less than 3 percent of lineups were duped in 9000. So isn’t the most probable thing for users not working together to have lineups not overlap? You could make the same statements about my lineups and Saahil’s.

    The rules even explicitly say you can share profits with friends. I’m not sure DK can just ban people, who could immediately sue for loss of income or discrimination, without definitive proof.

    I guess I am curious if your motivates are to improve the system for the broader community (what recommendations are you making here?), or to raise awareness on individual users and get them banned?

  • Mphst18

    @biglucky said...

    just a stupid question but sorry, if this can be proven is this not criminal?

    Not a stupid question or all, not sure it is criminal by the players as it would be on the site to enforce their rules. The sites seem hesitant to want to do anything in fear of a retaliation lawsuit from the alleged rule violators as they would have to then go after all not just pick and choose. Plus the individuals who do this are the sites largest customers by revenue so enforcing their rules verse them would have a bigger impact revenue wise for the sits then the loss of a few small players who may choose not to play.

    IMO the VCs are going to want to get their money back soon, the sites only way to do this is through an IPO, they need clarity around legal issues to have an IPO and then they will want to show the street revenue and player growth. So for me the sites are focused on states legality (where they use the optics of game integrity and entry limits to help further their cause) and revenue growth (so they cant enforce the same game integrity and entry limit rules against these offenders cause it would be couter productive to revenue growth). And thus a vicious cycle goes around and around in the same circle.

    The more likely view may be states who have yet to make a decision ask more informed questions around “you say you have entry limit guidelines” but it appears your users are skirting them what are you doing to enforce these entry limits.

  • cutter2225

    With the info you’ve provided, in my opinion, its highly likely they’re working as a team to circumvent entry limits which would mean they’re very likely splitting entry fees and winnings. I believe there’s a lot of this going on however it’ll likely never be proven because no one within DK’s game integrity department seems overly interested in actual integrity.

  • Mphst18

    @colinwdrew said...

    I guess I am curious if your motivates are to improve the system for the broader community (what recommendations are you making here?), or to raise awareness on individual users and get them banned?

    The first part. The recommendation is either have rules and enforce them to improve the system for the broader community or don’t have rules so everyone can then be on the same page. Don’t pretend to have rules for your own self fulfilling reasons but then refuse to utilize your rules again for your own self fulfilling reasons instead of enacting your rules to improve the system for the broader community.

    The states wanted entry limits so the sites said ok here are entry limits while giving off the image that they care about the integrity knowing very well what their users would do to skirt the limits and now they wont do anything about it cause it would diminish their revenue and incur more legal costs.

    GPPS and H2h are two completely separate issues.

    Identical lineups for H2H reduce the variance for individuals as well as provide an advantage for team play over individual play (this is where the site then determines if what occurred is considered an advantage or not or how team play to derive the same identical lineup is any different then a lineup seller).

    For GPPS especially top heavy payout structures if you are working with someone you don’t want to overlap your lineup with each other (this you can control, you can’t control if someone else has the same lineup) while also having as many entries as you can. An individual who doesn’t operate in this gray area is limited to having his/her own unique lineups up to the entry limit, whereas these individuals can have double the amount of unique lineups amongst themselves (can’t control if someone else has it, they hope they don’t).

    I think we are differing that the value IMO is for teams in gpps to get as many unique lineups amongst themselves (to have more lineups than the entry limit allows) which they can control, while teams and individuals can’t control if someone else will have that lineup. In a 45 max I have 45 chances that hopefully no one dupes, they can have 90 and it can go upwards based on the size of teams.

  • squirrelpatrol

    • 29

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    • Ranked #26

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    • x5

      2018 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    • 2018 FanDuel WFBC Champion

    Just a thought – if there are millions or billions of possible combinations in a regular contest, isn’t it totally normal that if they both picked 3, or 45, or even 150 of those combinations (without teaming up) that there is no overlap? I would think that it would be more proof of collusion if they DID have overlap with only three entries (trying to take down both first and second in a top-heavy tournament) than if they did not. I’m sure I enter some of the same tournaments as these guys, enter the maximum number of entries (whether it is three, or 150), and since I’ve never met them and don’t discuss any ideas with them, I wouldn’t have any overlap with them in any of my entries.

  • Mphst18

    @squirrelpatrol said...

    Just a thought – if there are millions or billions of possible combinations on a regular contest, isn’t it totally normal that if they both picked 3, or 45, or even 150 of those combinations, without teaming up, that there is no overlap? I would think that it would be more proof of collusion if they DID have overlap with only three entries (trying to take down both first and second in a top-heavy tournament) than if they did not.

    Yes you and I could not team up and max enter every tournament and not overlap. The difference being one that we don’t work together and it is a coincidence whereas in this scenario its my opinion they do work together and may not be a coincidence of no overlap especially when you start to look at the commonality of players selected by each account.

    Not sure of your second thought never did the math but I think in scenarios where it is a 90% difference between payout for 1st and second there is more value to be gained in having one less overlapping lineup amongst a team then also winning second place when 1st prize is a considerable amount.

  • colinwdrew

    • 117

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    • Ranked #78

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    • 2018 DraftKings FHWC Finalist

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    @Mphst18 said...

    I think we are differing that the value IMO is for teams in gpps to get as many unique lineups amongst themselves (to have more lineups than the entry limit allows) which they can control, while teams and individuals can’t control if someone else will have that lineup. In a 45 max I have 45 chances that hopefully no one dupes, they can have 90 and it can go upwards base don the size of teams.

    I don’t think we’re differing on that being a value, but in GPPs with less than X entries, if lineups are 97% unique then them having unique lineups shouldn’t be a surprise. How many dupes were in those contests from other users not named chipotle or pappa?

    I generally agree that sites should not have guidelines if they aren’t enforced but have become more empathetic to how challenging that is. So you can build complementary lineups if you don’t share profits, or share profits if you don’t build complementary lineups but all that is hard to prove. I think you are spot on they don’t want to risk a lawsuit unless they have factual evidence. Seems reasonable.

    Of their behaviors, it seems like the piece in question is if their lineups are complementary which seems very hard to prove if other random users also have totally unique lineups most of the time. I don’t necessarily doubt your claims seems they could reasonably be made about any 2 users who are close to each other and play high volume with no factual evidence. Could only be solved if they had probable cause and subpoenaed computers and financial records or something.

  • squirrelpatrol

    • 29

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #26

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • x5

      2018 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    • 2018 FanDuel WFBC Champion

    @Mphst18 said...

    Yes you and I could not team up and max enter every tournament and not overlap. The difference being one that we don’t work together and it is a coincidence whereas in this scenario its my opinion they do work together and may not be a coincidence

    Right, but if you take away the assumption that max entering with no overlap is evidence of illegal collusion, what you’re left with is “its my opinion they do work together”. I’m not sure what you expect DraftKings or FanDuel to do with that. Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s helpful for the game as a whole for people to be on the lookout for behavior that is against the rules, I just don’t see that there is any evidence of any kind of wrong doing in your original post.

  • osuryanf

    I also agree that just because there’s lineup differentiation between two pro’s it doesn’t necessarily mean they are colluding. There are SO MANY combinations on a given night that this seems incredibly common IMO.

    Have they proved to collude together in the past? Are they known as super close friends?

    Both are such studs at DFS I really hope they’re not dumb enough to think they’d get by with something that would clearly be against the rules.

  • Mphst18

    @osuryanf said...

    Have they proved to collude together in the past? Are they known as super close friends?

    Yes they are brothers.

  • Heterodox

    @colinwdrew said...

    I don’t think we’re differing on that being a value, but in GPPs with less than X entries, if lineups are 97% unique then them having unique lineups shouldn’t be a surprise. How many dupes were in those contests from other users not named chipotle or pappa?

    What he’s saying is that they aren’t two random players. They share research. So, having the maximum number of entries without any overlap is suspicious, especially in the context of them having fallen under suspicion before for collusive behavior (from people other than Mphst).

    I guess if you want to compare apples to apples, you’d need to compare other users in those contests who not only had no overlap – which is the vast majority, as you point out – but who also used the same research sources and methods, and used the same optimizer, and control for number of entries. Do you think RG users are more likely to duplicate lineups with other RG users than a random person would be to duplicate another random person’s lineup? Do you think that likelihood increases with each additional lineup? I would think yes, and I would think that two people who work more closely than two RG users who have no association would be even more likely, unless of course they differentiated in order to give themselves the most possible chances, which may or may not be against the rules/guidelines/regulations.

  • awesemo

    • 1

      RG Overall Ranking

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    • x3

      2018 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    I would be concerned if it was one person operating two accounts, but I don’t see how two people using one account each is circumventing the rules.

  • Heterodox

    @awesemo said...

    I would be concerned if it was one person operating two accounts, but I don’t see how two people using one account each is circumventing the rules.

    I kind of agree, but also kind of feel like it has to be somehow. Does what these guys do feel right to you? At the very least it’s circumventing the spirit of the rules, and what’s more is if I started doing the same thing with my own brother, I’m fairly certain we’d both be banned pretty quickly.

  • Mphst18

    @awesemo said...

    I would be concerned if it was one person operating two accounts, but I don’t see how two people using one account each is circumventing the rules.

    how can I get 90 unique to my team chances in a 45 max entry contest without utilizing another account even if it is an actual individuals account.

  • KillaChap

    I am concerned that those who never seem to think instances like this are unfair are the other big time players. They usually all have a badge next to their name indicating they are a very high ranking player. It’s the average and below average guys that have no problem admitting that this is collusion. I have entered numerous $1 entry 3 player contests on FD where ChipotleAddict and one other guy is already there. I never knew they were brothers which has shifted my anger from the fact that a shark is looking in $1 entries for money to the fact that they are colluding to do so. I think once my balance runs out, I might be retiring until the sharks are tagged for further research.

  • tonytone1908

    So are they colluding simply by sharing research? If you share your picks with me aren’t we then colluding as well? If someone shares info in a thread and the rest of us read it does that make us all in collusion also? If Chipotle’s lineups don’t overlap mine does that mean that I’m teaming with him? Of course not. These guys are pros who are smart enough to use low owned players so that reduces the chance of overlap with their friend but also with the other 30k entries or whatever there is.

    You seem to think it’s so easy to prove what these guys are doing is wrong why don’t you take them to court? Prove it in a court of law. Problem will be that you just can’t. It’s not that simple. They’ll trot out the math professor to talk about the billions of combinations possible. Short of subpoenas for phone records and text messages and internet history and computer hard drives you’ll never be able to prove it and nobody is going to those lengths for this.

  • Shipmymoney

    • 60

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    • Ranked #7

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    • x3

      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2016 FanDuel MLB Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @KillaChap said...

    It’s the average and below average guys that have no problem admitting that this is collusion.

    I have no idea what I am classified as, but part of the reason that the average and below average guys are the ones “admitting it is collusion” is that those are the same people looking for excuses for why they don’t make money and it is easy to just throw words around accusing players that are better than them of cheating. Not saying that is true for everyone who thinks it is collusion, but there is definitely a correlation there.

  • Olhausen

    @Shipmymoney said...

    I have no idea what I am classified as, but part of the reason that the average and below average guys are the ones “admitting it is collusion” is that those are the same people looking for excuses for why they don’t make money and it is easy to just throw words around accusing players that are better than them of cheating. Not saying that is true for everyone who thinks it is collusion, but there is definitely a correlation there.

    This. I had a badge next to my name up until a month ago. I no longer have a badge next to my name because I’m not as good right now as a lot of the people that do. And I sure as hell won’t get better at dfs by constantly posting conspiracy theories about people cheating.

  • Unico10

    • 447

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    @Shipmymoney said...

    Not saying that is true for everyone who thinks it is collusion, but there is definitely a correlation there.

    Or maybe the people that have very high badges are PROs who do this for a living and, in some cases, are entrenched in the gambling culture and their values or views of what is ethical or would be called cheating are quite different from the semi-pro, amateur or recreational player who spends a lot more time in other endeavors and has a very different understanding of what constitutes collusion, circumventing of rules or unethical behavior

    Just a thought.

  • Mphst18

    @Shipmymoney said...

    I have no idea what I am classified as, but part of the reason that the average and below average guys are the ones “admitting it is collusion” is that those are the same people looking for excuses for why they don’t make money and it is easy to just throw words around accusing players that are better than them of cheating. Not saying that is true for everyone who thinks it is collusion, but there is definitely a correlation there.

    Would the correlation go the other way as well. Not everyone but the ones who side the other way are ones engaging in similar questionable tactics?

  • Shipmymoney

    • 60

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    • x3

      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2016 FanDuel MLB Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @Unico10 said...

    Or maybe the people that have very high badges are PROs who do this for a living and, in some cases, are entrenched in the gambling culture and their values or views of what is ethical or would be called cheating are quite different from the semi-pro, amateur or recreational player who spends a lot more time in other endeavors and has a very different understanding of what constitutes collusion, circumventing of rules or unethical behavior

    Just a thought.

    While I don’t think it should matter what less informed people think the word collusion means, that kind of is my only issue with what goes on with respect to stuff like Chipotle and Papagates. I couldn’t care less what they do, I’ve gone from no bankroll a year ago to where I am now despite all these guys supposedly making it impossible to win at DFS. My only issue is the optics and that it probably does drive people away because they don’t like the way it looks even though it really doesn’t matter.

  • Mphst18

    @KillaChap said...

    I am concerned that those who never seem to think instances like this are unfair are the other big time players. They usually all have a badge next to their name indicating they are a very high ranking player. It’s the average and below average guys that have no problem admitting that this is collusion. I have entered numerous $1 entry 3 player contests on FD where ChipotleAddict and one other guy is already there. I never knew they were brothers which has shifted my anger from the fact that a shark is looking in $1 entries for money to the fact that they are colluding to do so. I think once my balance runs out, I might be retiring until the sharks are tagged for further research.

    This right here. And for those who need absolute proof I understand but a simple question to ask oneself is why would these two play three mans winner take all contests together?

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