INDUSTRY FORUM

Comments

  • Mphst18

    I am using the analysis of data to draw a conclusion and ask questions in the alleged scenario (the data is not alleged it is actual data). My views are not to be interpreted as fact but to allow individuals to determine if they feel they are playing a game with integrity or one that is monitoring for violations of entry limits and rules.

    Is this a form of circumventing Entry limits and or an alternate form of multi accounting (regardless of if they are actually two individuals)

    If two brothers or individuals take 50% of each others winnings and agree to risk the same amount every night (enter the same contests with the same number of entries) is this a violation guidelines/rule. Of note they may not technically be “pooling entry fees” as brother A does not send brother B any money for entry fees they just sum up or net profit at the end of the night and reconcile.

    They max enter every gpp mlb contest (for the max entries below 150 they don’t overlap entries (they may also not overlap for 150 but I am not digging through all that data as DK supposedly has a game integrity department that is supposed to be monitoring this stuff).

    Let’s look at 9/13 2016 data, the data for 9/6 shows the same as well and we can look at 9/20 data when that’s available: (my guess here it’s the same every day but just taking the Tue slates as that’s the big prize for DK)

    MLB $600K Power Hitter ($444, 45 max) – Chipolteaddict 45 entries, papagates 45 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $30K Warning Track ($150, 3 max) – Chipolteaddict 3 entries, papagates 3 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $5K Deep Mini Moonshot ($3, 50 max) – Chipolteaddict 50 entries, papagates 50 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $10K Slider ($3, 3max) – Chipolteaddict 3 entries, papagates 3 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $150K Payoff Pitch ($27, 150 max) – Chipolteaddict 150 entries, papagates 150 entries (I am not digging through 150 to determine overlap or not, other people are supposedly paid to do this)

  • hendog

    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    Yes it comes down to “unfair advantage over individual play.” And this seems like a fairly high bar, and I imagine that DK set it on purpose.

    For example, individual play can be strong. If two players discuss their picks as the guidelines allow, and discuss their strategy and both agree on the GPP strategy of using a core + rotating other players, it now seems pretty likely that individual play is going to lead to a situation where they have 300 lineups with the same core. Despite what some people think even if they don’t coordinate it is extremely likely they will not overlap any lineups. They can even share their profits after this, according to the rules.

    So, my question is, what would colluders have to do to create an additional advantage?

  • depalma13

    @hendog said...

    I can think of one explanation. Maybe they do the same thing I do. I create my cash game lineups from my personal projection model directly. I create my GPP lineups by adding some randomness to the projections before creating each lineups. As a result, it will always create the same cash-game lineup but will never create the same GPP lineup twice. If I let someone else use my tools (which is allowed) then you would see the same pattern of results that you are questioning.

    I can completely understand what you are saying, but please explain how two people who “some weeks do not discus any strategy” never seem to add the same player to create randomness?

    These are two of the best players in the world. You don’t think that during a week they are not discussing strategy, they won’t both add say Mookie Betts to create randomness? How is that they never seem to create randomness with the same player?

  • hendog

    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @depalma13 said...

    I can completely understand what you are saying, but please explain how two people who “some weeks do not discus any strategy” never seem to add the same player to create randomness?

    These are two of the best players in the world. You don’t think that during a week they are not discussing strategy, they won’t both add say Mookie Betts to create randomness? How is that they never seem to create randomness with the same player?

    All I can say is that I have left my randomizing optimizer running for days and have it generate millions of lineups and it never created the same lineup twice. With another way of getting randomness maybe repeats would be more likely, but I don’t think we can make any inferences from the fact that their lineups don’t overlap. No overlaps is consistent with all possible explanations.

  • Avgplayer

    Not a lot to say really, DK is never proactive just reactive. They have been aware of what has been going on before this Sunday. The guidelines came about because of a thread similar to this just weeks ago.

  • Silvestro24

    If they are colluding and entering 90 lineups instead of 45 and profit sharing then yes its makes their odds much better. You could ever say cheating if youre really hell bent on it and pissed off. The odds of them winning are cut in half. However, you have your lineups. You did your research, maybe you have your own algorithm. Whatever it may be. No matter what the case may be you trust your own research and your lineups to beat everyone elses. So it shouldnt matter what the others do because no matter whether they are in your tourney or not, youre still putting up your lineups against thousands of other people. If they weren’t in the pool, other people would be with more unique lineups. They’re clearly above average so they’ll have a better chance of winning, but if you pick the right lineup then what does it matter, whether you beat papagates and chipotle addic or JoeyBigDick for Long Island.

  • Rycol19

    FWIW…the UIGEA Act of 2006 that was passed controlling online gambling and legalizing fantasy games states that wagers activities are governed by securities laws of the Security Exchange Act of 1934. I am by know means an expert on this (although I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express once) so to me it seems like it squarely puts the onus on DK. Failure to act and allow PG and CA or any others to do what they are doing is collusion on their part. So there is a guideline in place just not DKs guideline.

  • Mphst18

    @hendog said...

    Yes it comes down to “unfair advantage over individual play.” And this seems like a fairly high bar, and I imagine that DK set it on purpose.

    For example, individual play can be strong. If two players discuss their picks as the guidelines allow, and discuss their strategy and both agree on the GPP strategy of using a core + rotating other players, it now seems pretty likely that individual play is going to lead to a situation where they have 300 lineups with the same core. Despite what some people think even if they don’t coordinate it is extremely likely they will not overlap any lineups. They can even share their profits after this, according to the rules.

    So, my question is, what would colluders have to do to create an additional advantage?

    Time is not unlimited. Dfs is a game of information that revolves around sports. Teams that enter identical cash lineups every night and the team (which is not identified In any way on DK) plays the same opponent in a H2H then team play has gained an advantage on individual play.

  • timusbr

    @Rycol19 said...

    FWIW…the UIGEA Act of 2006 that was passed controlling online gambling and legalizing fantasy games states that wagers activities are governed by securities laws of the Security Exchange Act of 1934. I am by know means an expert on this (although I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express once) so to me it seems like it squarely puts the onus on DK. Failure to act and allow PG and CA or any others to do what they are doing is collusion on their part. So there is a guideline in place just not DKs guideline.

    I got tears from laughing so hard. Thank you Rycol for the joke and info

  • hendog

    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @Mphst18 said...

    Time is not unlimited. Dfs is a game of information that revolves around sports. Teams that enter identical cash lineups every night and the team (which is not identified In any way on DK) plays the same opponent in a H2H then team play has gained an advantage on individual play.

    Hey, I like this. This is maybe the first specific proposal of a standard for collusion that I have seen. Playing the same opponent in H2H counts as collusion.

    But I have to push back a little. What is the actual advantage here? You don’t actually gain any information you wouldn’t have got anyway. Also, this is much too broad to be used to find colluders since it will get many false positives.

  • timusbr

    I was just thinking the baseball example I looked at was like 1 list was made and cut in half where each person then entered their portion. If they would have randomly sorted the list…Who could guess?? Pretty obvious by high profile players, and the smarter ones will still beat the system. but like i said before, I will still beat them using 1/2 thier lineups. LOL

  • Mphst18

    The individual is at a disadvantage, say average joy spends all the time available from he time the slate is posted until it starts.

    Average joe then goes and posts $1 H2H and gets picked up by player a , b and c who unbeknownced to average joe are a team that play the exact same cash lineup every night.

    Player a spent all the time available as well just like average joe but then also player b and c spent all the time available gathering more information than average joe could (yes one person may gather and process in for quicker than someone else but 3-1 is hard to outpace).

    Now poor average joe not only loses variance but also has been disadvantage by team play over individual play, team play through thier strategy has gained an advantage over team play.

    As a side note the sites should go to random H2-H matchups, all lineups go in and then it spits out who plays who.

  • Zieg30

    @Mphst18 said...

    The individual is at a disadvantage, say average joy spends all the time available from he time the slate is posted until it starts.

    Average joe then goes and posts $1 H2H and gets picked up by player a , b and c who unbeknownced to average joe are a team that play the exact same cash lineup every night.

    Player a spent all the time available as well just like average joe but then also player b and c spent all the time available gathering more information than average joe could (yes one person may gather and process in for quicker than someone else but 3-1 is hard to outpace).

    Now poor average joe not only loses variance but also has been disadvantage by team play over individual play, team play through thier strategy has gained an advantage over team play.

    As a side note the sites should go to random H2-H matchups, all lineups go in and then it spits out who plays who.

    Mphst,

    Here is where you lose me. There is nothing wrong with players teaming up to create lineups and entering them separately into H2Hs. Now, I have agreed previously that teams who work together should be forced to identify themselves as doing so in the interest of transparency (e.g. players should know that they’re playing such and such pro, or his lineup; it should not be hidden by another team member’s entry).

    The only time that teaming up constitutes a rule violation is when it de facto constitutes circumvention of an entry limit.

    Edit: We are not entitled to a level playing field when it comes to friends to collaborate with, time spent researching, research tools (e.g. RG premium content), statistical sorting ability, etc. This is a competition, after all, though that doesn’t change the fact that everyone should abide by the rules, and not circumvent entry limits that we DO have to abide by.

  • Mphst18

    We just interpret it differently the guideline says:

    Team-building a lineup, or a set of complementary lineups which serve to work together, to execute a strategy that may create any unfair advantage over individual play.

    I interpret it to go beyond just gpp. IMO Teams

    team build a cash lineup – the team build part

    that serve to work together to execute a strategy ( which is more time to garner more information) to create an unfair advantage ( if each player spends the same amount of time individual is at an unfair advantage) over individual play.

    The strategy very well could also be to get more variance for their team if they split money but again that no one will know for sure.

    I get that people talk and work together but when it is every night identical team built cash lineups and you start taking away variance for the beginners to me it is unfair to the individual play.

    When looking at the time issue it is not about a level playing field it’s that an apples to apples comparison of an individual maxed out their time and so did one of the team members and then the other team members spend any amount of time the individual can’t obtain the time to match it)

  • DoubleTime

    • 2016 King of Summer: August

    But you can get a skype chat going with some buddies if you want and make up that lost time

  • DoubleTime

    • 2016 King of Summer: August

    @rainbowtroutman said...

    Cal—Shouldn’t a company as big as DK with so much money on the line daily have steadfast RULES instead of “community guidelines” which are arbitrary to begin with? To me, that is the problem here

    Know I’m not cal, but this is a big circle IMO. The sites wanted to make rules that prevented these types of issues, but like the rest of us in this thread, they could not come up with any. For every rule that they came up with, there is some reason why it would be unfair, unenforceable, or just wouldn’t work. Seeing that they couldn’t come up with any rules, they decided to release ‘community guidelines’ instead. Since the ‘community guidelines’ are arbitrary, they do not actually prevent the types of issues we are seeing. Since the community guidelines do not prevent these issues, the sties need to make rules that prevent these types of issues instead. But as we already know, nobody has yet to come up with any good rules. And around and around it goes. Which is why I think emitnulB and hendog are asking for people to suggest rules because without them nothing can happen.

    I do think there are rules that they could come up with. They would probably involve some deep analysis into the probability of line-ups being independent. Something that would be triggered by a computer, might be over the course of many weeks playing together or something like that. Something that is definitely way over my head and I wouldn’t understand, and probably something most people wouldn’t understand. Thereby making these rules hard to explain, difficult to put into writing, and appear not very transparent. A rule such as: If our algo determines you are colluding you will be banned.

  • emitnulB

    • 115

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #20

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • 2019 $1M Prize Winner

    • 2018 DraftKings FBBWC Finalist

    I feel like I really need to explain why I’m so disturbed by what’s going on here. Back in January when FantasyUP went down, I had 15k locked up with a business that arbitrarily decided not to pay me. One of the reasons I eventually got paid was because people in this forum put pressure on the former owner to work out a deal to get the players paid. The old owner was a scumbag who had no issues with screwing his players out of all of their money. Do you want to know the difference between that guy and the guys who run DK? A successful advertising campaign. Giving these people arbitrary control over who gets paid out is absolutely the most dangerous thing you can ever ask for, and I’m seeing a growing sect of this community moving in that direction. The rules for denying payment of funds need to be exact, black and white rules that clearly outline what is allowed and what is not allowed. It is totally unacceptable to give DK full control over this and unless someone comes up with a legitimate solution, this thread needs to end.

    I’ll suggest my own rule change. I suggest that the rules of this forum be changed to make witch hunt threads like this against the rules. Prove that these people gained an unfair advantage, suggest a rule that prevents them from gaining this in advantage in the future, or end this thread. I am very afraid of the implications of giving these DFS sites arbitrary control over who they pay out and you all should be too.

  • MickyD10970

    @hendog said...

    All I can say is that I have left my randomizing optimizer running for days and have it generate millions of lineups and it never created the same lineup twice. With another way of getting randomness maybe repeats would be more likely, but I don’t think we can make any inferences from the fact that their lineups don’t overlap. No overlaps is consistent with all possible explanations.

    So you are saying your randomizer never duplicates the same lineup. What if 2 separate people ran your optimizer using the same parameters? I would say they should have many duplicates. Not sharing lineup building but using as they say very similar strategies how is it they never duplicate ever? By your own words it seems inevitable. You are starting as 1 person and you’ve set to never repeat so of course you don’t have any the same. You are assuming PG And CA are 1 And the same to get the same results as you, which I believe is exactly the point they are colluding.

    It really doesn’t take rocket science to know what is going on. I’m pretty sure my 9 year old could figure they are colluding.

    No way the same cash lineup pops out every single time, I don’t care how much they share. If they don’t talk for “days” at times with all the late scratches and values that appear last second there would be at least 1 differing cash game. This is especially true if you go back to basketball.

    Just my two cents.

  • MickyD10970

    @DoubleTime said...

    I do think there are rules that they could come up with. They would probably involve some deep analysis into the probability of line-ups being independent. Something that would be triggered by a computer, might be over the course of many weeks playing together or something like that. Something that is definitely way over my head and I wouldn’t understand, and probably something most people wouldn’t understand. Thereby making these rules hard to explain, difficult to put into writing, and appear not very transparent. A rule such as: If our algo determines you are colluding you will be banned.

    So you need a sophisticated algorithm and months of research to tie PG and CA together. Funniest thing I have ever heard

  • Mochi22

    @Mphst18 said...

    I am using the analysis of data to draw a conclusion and ask questions in the alleged scenario (the data is not alleged it is actual data). My views are not to be interpreted as fact but to allow individuals to determine if they feel they are playing a game with integrity or one that is monitoring for violations of entry limits and rules.

    Is this a form of circumventing Entry limits and or an alternate form of multi accounting (regardless of if they are actually two individuals)

    If two brothers or individuals take 50% of each others winnings and agree to risk the same amount every night (enter the same contests with the same number of entries) is this a violation guidelines/rule. Of note they may not technically be “pooling entry fees” as brother A does not send brother B any money for entry fees they just sum up or net profit at the end of the night and reconcile.

    They max enter every gpp mlb contest (for the max entries below 150 they don’t overlap entries (they may also not overlap for 150 but I am not digging through all that data as DK supposedly has a game integrity department that is supposed to be monitoring this stuff).

    Let’s look at 9/13 2016 data, the data for 9/6 shows the same as well and we can look at 9/20 data when that’s available: (my guess here it’s the same every day but just taking the Tue slates as that’s the big prize for DK)

    MLB $600K Power Hitter ($444, 45 max) – Chipolteaddict 45 entries, papagates 45 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $30K Warning Track ($150, 3 max) – Chipolteaddict 3 entries, papagates 3 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $5K Deep Mini Moonshot ($3, 50 max) – Chipolteaddict 50 entries, papagates 50 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $10K Slider ($3, 3max) – Chipolteaddict 3 entries, papagates 3 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $150K Payoff Pitch ($27, 150 max) – Chipolteaddict 150 entries, papagates 150 entries (I am not digging through 150 to determine overlap or not, other people are supposedly paid to do this)

    my new bumpersticker:), as DK supposedly has a game integrity department that is supposed to be monitoring this stuff-Mphst18

    I personally think Mphst18 would be a great addition to the DK integrity team…..

  • DoubleTime

    • 2016 King of Summer: August

    @MickyD10970 said...

    So you need a sophisticated algorithm and months of research to tie PG and CA together. Funniest thing I have ever heard

    No, I did not say you need a sophisticated algorithm to tie PG and CA together. They are brothers, and they openly admit to working together. That in itself is not even an issue, the issue is that there is no proof they circumvented entry limits. I’d bet money that they did, but there is no proof. Looking at their ownership %‘s by themselves is not proof, at least the way it currently stands. What I was trying to say is that maybe there is a way to look at their ownership %‘s over time and be able to use it as proof, but that would require analysis and some sort of algorithm.

    At this point there is nothing preventing them from doing what they did. You are allowed to work together, you are allowed to max enter… hell, you are even allowed to take 50% of each others action. This should not be an after the fact thing, where action is only taken after a big win. It should not rely on people like Mpsht blowing the whistle. It should not have to do with ‘sharing profits’, because short of a subpoena that is nearly impossible to prove (and may fail to catch people who circumvent limits and lose money).

    We need to define what exactly constitutes wrong-doing, and we need to have a way of detecting wrong-doing. It should be definitive, and not rely on a guy looking at exposures side-by-side and making a judgement call. That is where I was hoping an algorithm could help.

  • depalma13

    @emitnulB said...

    Giving these people arbitrary control over who gets paid out is absolutely the most dangerous thing you can ever ask for

    Ummmm……

    “The Company, at its sole discretion, may disqualify any entrant from a Contest, refuse to award benefits or prizes and require the return of any prizes, if the entrant engages in conduct or otherwise utilizes any information the Company deems to be improper, unfair or otherwise adverse to the operation of the Contest or is in any way detrimental to other entrants.”

  • deactivated60279

    @emitnulB said...

    I feel like I really need to explain why I’m so disturbed by what’s going on here. Back in January when FantasyUP went down, I had 15k locked up with a business that arbitrarily decided not to pay me. One of the reasons I eventually got paid was because people in this forum put pressure on the former owner to work out a deal to get the players paid. The old owner was a scumbag who had no issues with screwing his players out of all of their money. Do you want to know the difference between that guy and the guys who run DK? A successful advertising campaign. Giving these people arbitrary control over who gets paid out is absolutely the most dangerous thing you can ever ask for, and I’m seeing a growing sect of this community moving in that direction. The rules for denying payment of funds need to be exact, black and white rules that clearly outline what is allowed and what is not allowed. It is totally unacceptable to give DK full control over this and unless someone comes up with a legitimate solution, this thread needs to end.

    I’ll suggest my own rule change. I suggest that the rules of this forum be changed to make witch hunt threads like this against the rules. Prove that these people gained an unfair advantage, suggest a rule that prevents them from gaining this in advantage in the future, or end this thread. I am very afraid of the implications of giving these DFS sites arbitrary control over who they pay out and you all should be too.

    So let me get this straight, u r against the very forums that got your money back? Or the forums are ok when they are beneficial to you? I get your point but one reason what you are saying won’t happen is because of these very forums! I think your vehement reaction is kinda weird and just my guess, there’s more to it. It’s ok to disagree with what’s said but you took an attacking tone and accused people who have an opinion different than yours as being cry baby losers (many of them I’n confident are very profitable) these forums provide a checks and balance system that couldn’t be more necessary than it is now in the Dfs world. The fact that it’s a difficult fix doesn’t take away from the big picture that people want a level playing field.

  • Mphst18

    I don’t get this narrative around my posts on issues are only after people win as all the posts prove otherwise:

    Daut/Mir – kings cup was during the seeding contest that had no prize associated with it nor did they win the seeding tournament

    Daut/Mir – golf MM, post was made hours After round 1 started and they didn’t win the golf MM

    Teams like aejones/wzdrich/kunu – posts were made around cash game and allowing for people to at least have one way to identify teams.

    CA/PG post – was made before “they” won the MM maker and was around the highly unlikely probability that two people who admittingly work together could have the same cash lineups every week but not have overlapping gpp entries.

    So emit this notion that I only post after people win is just nonsense.

    I didn’t start a post after al won cause I don’t have and couldn’t find any data of him historically operating in ways that appear to break the TOS and guidelines

    Sure I think DK was treating the “DK PROS” differently then the rest of their customers before the Ethan scandal and providing them advantages but I don’t think him being a DK pro previousslly and advantages he may have gained had anything to do with him winning the MM last week.

  • yogaflame

    Has anyone looked at their lineup construction in single-entry tournaments? The best ones to look at are probably high buy-in events that are top heavy, like WTA satellites. It’s generally a pretty big mistake to not diversify quite a bit there if you are making 2 lineups.

  • Mphst18

    @emitnulB said...

    Back in January when FantasyUP went down, I had 15k locked up with a business that arbitrarily decided not to pay me

    You arbitrarily decided to keep a 15K balance on the site.

    You arbitrarily decided to do a risk to reward decision on doing business with a company that was not a member of the FSTA (regardless of views if they are effective or not), showed no independent third party audit of separated player/company funds, was offering rake free for all of 2015 NFL and was offering 300% bonuses.

    The rewards outweighed the risks for you and the risks came back to bite you so now you want to apply that to this and say the only difference between the two companies is advertising!!!

    I’d say they both used deceptive advertising to lure in the unsuspecting, but while DK did to the benefit of their highest revenue players, FU (the abbreviation of their name is telling in itself) did it to benefit themselves (personally).

    You seemed to understand the risks with bodog and withdrew wisely but also implied that you could collude without getting caught. Maybe you are using the same logic for DFS

    “Yeah the only reason I’m withdrawing is because I honestly think it’s going to be impossible to stop collusion on Bodog with no screen names or 3rd party monitoring. I honestly don’t know why I don’t just do it myself. There’s no way they’ll catch me especially since I’ve played an honest game for 250k cash hands and 5k SnG’s. If I just find one random dude to collude with on 1/3 of my games I’m making mad bank. No way Bodog figures it out either because how would they know, and how would anybody at my table know that my absurd actions aren’t just because I’m a fish who has no idea what I’m doing? There’s no history to show that I’m actually a decent player, I can make the dumbest moves on the planet and pretend like it’s my first game when in reality I’m just helping my partner”

  • X Unread Thread
  • X Thread with New Replies*
  • *Jumps to your first unread reply

Subforum Index

RotoGrinders.com is the home of the daily fantasy sports community. Our content, rankings, member blogs, promotions and forum discussion all cater to the players that like to create a new fantasy team every day of the week.

If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling 1-800-GAMBLER (1-800-426-2537) (IL). Gambling problem? Call 1-800-Gambler (NJ/WV/PA), 1-800-9-WITH-IT (IN), 1-800-522-4700 (CO) or 1-800-BETS OFF (IA). 21+. NJ/PA/WV/IN/IA/CO/IL only.