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  • Mphst18

    I am using the analysis of data to draw a conclusion and ask questions in the alleged scenario (the data is not alleged it is actual data). My views are not to be interpreted as fact but to allow individuals to determine if they feel they are playing a game with integrity or one that is monitoring for violations of entry limits and rules.

    Is this a form of circumventing Entry limits and or an alternate form of multi accounting (regardless of if they are actually two individuals)

    If two brothers or individuals take 50% of each others winnings and agree to risk the same amount every night (enter the same contests with the same number of entries) is this a violation guidelines/rule. Of note they may not technically be “pooling entry fees” as brother A does not send brother B any money for entry fees they just sum up or net profit at the end of the night and reconcile.

    They max enter every gpp mlb contest (for the max entries below 150 they don’t overlap entries (they may also not overlap for 150 but I am not digging through all that data as DK supposedly has a game integrity department that is supposed to be monitoring this stuff).

    Let’s look at 9/13 2016 data, the data for 9/6 shows the same as well and we can look at 9/20 data when that’s available: (my guess here it’s the same every day but just taking the Tue slates as that’s the big prize for DK)

    MLB $600K Power Hitter ($444, 45 max) – Chipolteaddict 45 entries, papagates 45 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $30K Warning Track ($150, 3 max) – Chipolteaddict 3 entries, papagates 3 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $5K Deep Mini Moonshot ($3, 50 max) – Chipolteaddict 50 entries, papagates 50 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $10K Slider ($3, 3max) – Chipolteaddict 3 entries, papagates 3 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $150K Payoff Pitch ($27, 150 max) – Chipolteaddict 150 entries, papagates 150 entries (I am not digging through 150 to determine overlap or not, other people are supposedly paid to do this)

  • Mphst18

    @papagates said...

    Mphst brings up data from 9/20 yet only

    Pretty sure the OP looked at data from 9/13, 9/6 and 9/20 and pretty sure it said when entries are less than 150 ( the pitch is 150 ) max since DK supposedly has a team that’s supposed to be doing this and I’m not digging through 300 lineups.

    If you both barely spoke last week as stated an easy assessment of that can be done by looking at their H2H lineups all last week. If a true statement then One wouldn’t expect to see identical H2H lineups. DK could release this data or any users that played them last week in a H2H can release the data.

  • rayofhope

    • 2017 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    it’s 12 dupes out of 150 not 300, and i’d say that does a pretty good job of absolving them of collusion for that tourney.

    And regarding my screenshots.. in the initial tweet those were the first/only 3 gpps i checked ($300gpp from a few days in a row).. then W3 is the first i checked after that. That seemed like enough to tweet, it’s obviously not proof though.

    anyway, i’m glad DK is taking it’s time to be thorough, and i hope they don’t find anything, bpg/potle seem like alright guys. that said the issue in general still exists, and it would be nice to see some kind of action preventing this from ever actually being a thing. limit connected accounts, be generous with definition of linked at first – let users show that they’re distinct/unrelated.

  • saltwater39

    Come on, you guys are smart enough to be doing this so obviously smart enough to overlap a few for coverage.

  • Mphst18

    @papagates said...

    Hi All,
    Just wanted to give you an update. I can confirm that DK is currently investigating this issue. I believe this is far too driven by public opinion, and recency bias and not enough data, but that is beyond the point. I understand where they are coming from given the scandals that have rocked the industry in the past, and the public outcry that has happened in threads like these because we are brothers.

    Thankfully, there was enough of a digital footprint that was left, that proves no collusion took place. We have not heard anything from Draftkings since the evidence has been submitted, but the evidence provided should clear everything up.

    Don’t want to get into debating every single point, but just want to point out that for some of you, the burden of proof is disturbingly low. This is an extremely dangerous precedent to set for obvious reasons. For example, it has been repeated numerous times throughout this thread how we never have overlapping lineups in gpps. Mphst brings up data from 9/20 yet only uses the data that serves his narrative and ignores that 4 of our lineups overlap in the payoff pitch that day. I pointed this out in my original post but that was also ignored because it didn’t fit with the narrative of this thread. Many people have referenced this “pattern of data”, yet it took 30 pages of posts before the first person looked back at week 1 or 2? Since it’s clear nobody is going to go back and look at the data as rayofhope suggested I’ll add that we had 4 lineups of overlap in week 2, and 12 in week 1. 12!!! Where is the unfair advantage in that? I’m sure this won’t prove anything to many of you but when the most basic facts of the allegations prove to be false, what is left to the allegations other than the fact that we are brothers?

    Just as in DFS, it is extremely important to look at the hard data, instead of any narrative that can be pieced together, even when those narratives are extremely juicy, and can be convincing. This is one of the most important lessons I’ve learned from DFS.

    According to DK their internal fraud system detected your two accounts before the RG threads so not sure how this “juicy”!narrative was what got you two noticed unless you think DK is lying about their internal fraud team flagging your data as suspicious prior to any RG thread.

  • mccoolio

    So basically the alleged perp came in here on the defensive and told us something we already knew. Shocking.

    DK is a joke. “Flagged their lineups in advance,” Wtf does that even mean? What program or system could they have that monitors everyone’s lineups for potential collusion? If such a thing existed, tons of random folks would be flagged daily. This all is really ridiculous. These guys worked together to build lineups, it’s not fucking rocket science. I have a brother who plays and we shoot the shit every week on who is a good and who is a bad play, in our opinions. I don’t see a problem with it. When they are wrong, they lose big. When they win, they win big. They have the bankroll, so kudos. It’s widely known if you can front the money, odds are going to more in your favor to hit a profit. Only thing that can be done is reducing this to single entry-ish type events. Can we move on

  • fishcakeking

    FCK

    @Mphst18 said...

    According to DK their internal fraud system detected your two accounts before the RG threads so not sure how this “juicy”!narrative was what got you two noticed unless you think DK is lying about their internal fraud team flagging your data as suspicious prior to any RG thread.

    DK has put themselves in an another impossible position. They could likely never actually prove collusion in this case, in a court of law. Mainly becasue their guidelines contradict themselves. This is why they needed to get out in front of this stuff.

    Now, somehow I think they would lose lawsuits to both papa and the 2nd place finisher.

    Everyone should ask themselves, if you finished second would you be letigous. I know myself enough to know I would 99% file suit against DK. That’s the only way I can judge this situation.

    FCK

  • geardaddy

    I’m a little confused. Wouldn’t no overlap mean they don’t work together? or are you talking about overlap of players?

  • Zman68

    @geardaddy said...

    I’m a little confused. Wouldn’t no overlap mean they don’t work together? or are you talking about overlap of players?

    Both are targeting the same group of players, but none of their lineups are ever identical to each other. Not just for one contest, but for pretty much any contest they enter. One contest could be a coincidence, finding it time and time again is pretty obvious.

  • papagates

    • 4

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #5

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • 2016 $1M Prize Winner

    • x3

      2018 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @Mphst18 said...

    Pretty sure the OP looked at data from 9/13, 9/6 and 9/20 and pretty sure it said when entries are less than 150 ( the pitch is 150 ) max since DK supposedly has a team that’s supposed to be doing this and I’m not digging through 300 lineups.

    If you both barely spoke last week as stated an easy assessment of that can be done by looking at their H2H lineups all last week. If a true statement then One wouldn’t expect to see identical H2H lineups. DK could release this data or any users that played them last week in a H2H can release the data.

    Mphst, you make a fair point, I am asking you to take an unbiased facts driven approach and I must do the same. But you must understand my frustration. I take pride in my craft and work incredibly hard every single day to get better at dfs. I’ve worked 60-80 hour weeks for the last 2 years bringing myself to the position I’m in. I pour my heart and soul into making myself one of the best dfs players in the world. I’m not willing to just let you trash my name, when the scope of your analysis is far too narrow. This isn’t just fantasy for me. If you’d like to have an actual conversation, based on facts, feel free to pm me your number and I’ll give you a call, no questions asked. I’m not a big forum guy, I hate the anonymity and lack of humanity that is rampant here.

    FWIW I do think there is value in the community staying active policing these situations. They simply must take more care before acting and require more than speculation and shoddy, cherrypicked data, before presenting/accepting theories as fact.

    By the way, feel free to check our H2hs/cash lineups for the last several weeks, duplicate lineups are not the norm as you claim they are.

  • RikkiDee

    • Ranked #5

      RG Tiered Ranking

    I can’t wait for the WSJ to uncover the conspiracy of dfs strategy websites giving their members an inside edge to collude with each other to win at DFS.

  • AVivier

    I’ve seen complaints about lineups being identical (of others), and and this complaint of lineups being different.

    Even if the allegation is true, and it’s likely not, what is the -ev to anyone? It’s basically nothing.

    Coming from the poker background where multi-accounting and super users were real and actually -ev to players, this stuff is a joke.

    Congrats on your wins papa.

  • DoubleTime

    • 2016 King of Summer: August

    @papagates said...

    By the way, feel free to check our H2hs/cash lineups for the last several weeks, duplicate lineups are not the norm as you claim they are.

    Now that would be interesting. Considering one of the things I have been reading over and over, and one of the strongest ‘arguments’ to make it seem like you guys were circumventing entry limits, is how you guys ALWAYS run the same H2H line-up, yet NEVER have overlap in GPPs.

    Now it seems you guys only sometimes run the same H2H line-up, and sometimes do have overlap in GPP’s. Wait, what?

    IMO, this seems very consistent with what you would expect out of 2 brothers who talk strategy, probably use similar tools, yet do not coordinate line-ups. They would sometimes run the same H2H line-up, and sometimes have overlap in GPP’s. At the very least, it does not point towards them coordinating entries to circumvent entry limits.

    Not gonna lie, I sort of jumped in on the mob mentality. I kept reading over and over that they always run the same H2H lineup but never have overlap in tourneys, so I believed it.

    Saw somebody mention the Ethan thing earlier, this reminds me a lot of that. In good ways and bad. Ethan was cleared of doing anything wrong, yet there was a total witch hunt on these forums where people jumped to all sorts of conclusions and were ready to crucify him. News stories, WSJ. He did not deserve the scrutiny, that was bad. The good was that some common-sense rules for the good of the industry came out of it, like employees not being able to play. Whether it gave them an unfair advantage or not, for the appearance of the industry it was not a good look. Reminds me of this situation, where PG + CA probably do not deserve the scrutiny, yet maybe something good regarding rules and policies will come of it.

    The only difference IMO, is that Ethan started his whole debacle by sending out a tweet. This scandal started entirely because of a guy on a message board, a bunch of hearsay, and some defamation. Tho if any good changes come of it, I guess in a weird way that guy deserves some credit for it too.

  • Mphst18

    @papagates said...

    But you must understand my frustration. I take pride in my craft and work incredibly hard every single day to get better at dfs. I’ve worked 60-80 hour weeks for the last 2 years bringing myself to the position I’m in. I pour my heart and soul into making myself one of the best dfs players in the world

    You think others don’t take pride in their craft.

    You think the guy who tied you doesn’t want his other 400k if the totality of data shows a constant trend of collusive behavior?

    You think unreg 3 man and those people you didn’t at the lower level stakes didn’t work hard for their money and expect a fair game.

    You think max entering the quarter arcade is taking pride in your craft if you self proclaim you are one of the best dfs players in the world.

    Not one day after you said it’s unintentional that you sit 3 man and it won’t happen again, you went and sat a 3 man with your brother the very next day. That doesn’t seem like hard work and pride.

    Again according to DK they had you flagged and none of this is a result of this thread but rather a result of the data behind your entries over a period of time and maybe a video using the words We and US)

  • Mphst18

    @fishcakeking said...

    DK has put themselves in an another impossible position. They could likely never actually prove collusion in this case, in a court of law. Mainly becasue their guidelines contradict themselves. This is why they needed to get out in front of this stuff.

    Now, somehow I think they would lose lawsuits to both papa and the 2nd place finisher.

    Everyone should ask themselves, if you finished second would you be letigous. I know myself enough to know I would 99% file suit against DK. That’s the only way I can judge this situation.

    FCK

    I don’t know I think the wording in the TOS protects them to some degree since as players it’s what we have agreed to.

    I mean it’s the same as their and other companies claims in TOS that you can’t form a class to sue as a class action and then different courts will rule sometimes yes and sometimes no.

  • hendog

    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    To my reading there is nothing in the community guidelines prohibiting two people from working on a lineup together and both entering it in cash. But I agree it is ambiguous.

    If it turns out that these guys don’t always have the same cash lineup and that’s something the accusers just assumed and stated as fact, that’s just emblematic of how ridiculous this whole conversation has been.

  • KillaChap

    Unless they’re depositing and withdrawing from the same checking account, it’s never going to be proven. Two people can work together and come up with lineups that may or may not overlap. I have a problem with multi-entry GPP’s myself but after reading all of these threads, I now have no problem with any of it. If me and my friends were actually good at coming up with lineups I bet we’d be winning all the time too.

  • osuryanf

    @hendog said...

    To my reading there is nothing in the community guidelines prohibiting two people from working on a lineup together and both entering it in cash. But I agree it is ambiguous.

    If it turns out that these guys don’t always have the same cash lineup and that’s something the accusers just assumed and stated as fact, that’s just emblematic of how ridiculous this whole conversation has been.

    Consider the source of who started the thread.

  • hendog

    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @KillaChap said...

    Unless they’re depositing and withdrawing from the same checking account, it’s never going to be proven.

    Except that that the community guidelines explicitly allow profit sharing, so I don’t know that this is relevant.

  • Mphst18

    @hendog said...

    Except that that the community guidelines explicitly allow profit sharing, so I don’t know that this is relevant.

    Profit sharing as long as not pooling entry fees.

    So if you and I agree to split our accounts 50% but also agree to risk the same amount of money every night are we pooling entry fees? I don’t know the answer here but know that is how to circumvent it if one doesn’t think that is pooling fees.

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @DoubleTime said...

    Now that would be interesting. Considering one of the things I have been reading over and over, and one of the strongest ‘arguments’ to make it seem like you guys were circumventing entry limits, is how you guys ALWAYS run the same H2H line-up, yet NEVER have overlap in GPPs.

    Now it seems you guys only sometimes run the same H2H line-up, and sometimes do have overlap in GPP’s. Wait, what?

    IMO, this seems very consistent with what you would expect out of 2 brothers who talk strategy, probably use similar tools, yet do not coordinate line-ups. They would sometimes run the same H2H line-up, and sometimes have overlap in GPP’s. At the very least, it does not point towards them coordinating entries to circumvent entry limits.

    Not gonna lie, I sort of jumped in on the mob mentality. I kept reading over and over that they always run the same H2H lineup but never have overlap in tourneys, so I believed it.

    Saw somebody mention the Ethan thing earlier, this reminds me a lot of that. In good ways and bad. Ethan was cleared of doing anything wrong, yet there was a total witch hunt on these forums where people jumped to all sorts of conclusions and were ready to crucify him. News stories, WSJ. He did not deserve the scrutiny, that was bad. The good was that some common-sense rules for the good of the industry came out of it, like employees not being able to play. Whether it gave them an unfair advantage or not, for the appearance of the industry it was not a good look. Reminds me of this situation, where PG + CA probably do not deserve the scrutiny, yet maybe something good regarding rules and policies will come of it.

    The only difference IMO, is that Ethan started his whole debacle by sending out a tweet. This scandal started entirely because of a guy on a message board, a bunch of hearsay, and some defamation. Tho if any good changes come of it, I guess in a weird way that guy deserves some credit for it too.

    This is a great post. I haven’t been someone who has said I believe they were colluding, just believed it was something Draftkings should look into. I’ve tried to move the conversation towards not just PG + CA but how does Draftkings police this/handle this in all situations. I do agree with some of the doubters that the Community Guidelines do seem to contradict themselves at sometimes. It’s almost like they talked to some of their VIP players and tried to come up with something that makes everyone happy, but does not take away from what some of their top volume players were currently doing.

    The narrative in this thread has been “they always play the same cash game lineup.” “They use the same core of players in GPP’s and never overlap.” Just looking at the Week 3 data from the Millionaire Maker, I said about 15 pages back that I personally do not see the correlation. Certainly not on the level of RagingPhilip/Mazwa. Seems Week 1 and Week 2 did not have much correlation either (and did have overlap). I did sort of assume (not smart on my part) that they were one of the known groups that always played the same cash game lineup as mentioned many times in this thread. Papagates says above that is not true. If not, other than they are brothers and likely talk strategy at times and end up on similar players, not sure what could be proven here. Again, maybe there is some level of collusion here. Just seems flimsy at this point. Only Draftkings has all the data necessary to make that decision. I apologize if my posts in this thread leaned towards “collusion.” If anything, I just want Draftkings to police their games better.

  • hendog

    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @Mphst18 said...

    So if you and I agree to split our accounts 50% but also agree to risk the same amount of money every night are we pooling entry fees?

    I don’t see how you could consider that pooling entry fees. It would be ridiculous for DK to allow profit sharing “as long as you don’t agree on how much you are entering”. Why would anyone agree to share profits without knowing how much their partner was going to enter?

    In my opinion the point of the no pooling entry fees rule is to prevent a situation where player A is giving money to player B to circumvent the max entry limit. If both players already have the bankroll to max enter in the first place then they are not circumventing the entry limit, since they could do the same without ever communicating.

  • Mphst18

    @hendog said...

    In my opinion the point of the no pooling entry fees rule is to prevent a situation where player A is giving money to player B to circumvent the max entry limit

    OK so I’m not sure I am reading this correctly but this is how I read it according to hendog’s world:

    As long as either player has a bankroll large enough to max enter something then in no way could player A and player B ever be circumventing an entry limit?

  • rainbowtroutman

    @Mphst18 said...

    You think others don’t take pride in their craft.

    You think the guy who tied you doesn’t want his other 400k if the totality of data shows a constant trend of collusive behavior?

    You think unreg 3 man and those people you didn’t at the lower level stakes didn’t work hard for their money and expect a fair game.

    You think max entering the quarter arcade is taking pride in your craft if you self proclaim you are one of the best dfs players in the world.

    Not one day after you said it’s unintentional that you sit 3 man and it won’t happen again, you went and sat a 3 man with your brother the very next day. That doesn’t seem like hard work and pride.

    Again according to DK they had you flagged and none of this is a result of this thread but rather a result of the data behind your entries over a period of time and maybe a video using the words We and US)

    Plus,the BEST player in the world at DFS,the one who is better than you,called you out on Twitter and told you and your brother to stop sitting 3 mans-that it has to stop—-It wasn’t MYSRT and it wasn’t DK—It was the BEST player in the world—BTW I am not judging anyone,I just want a fair game for everyone

    Not really necessary for this to continue @bigpapagates

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    Martin Crowley ‏@bigpapagates Sep 26
    saahilsud I joined one 3 man yesterday thinking it was for yesterdays 4pm baseball slate as Fanduel posted early. You know it was a mistake 0 retweets 3 likes Reply Retweet Like 3 More Saahil ‏saahilsud Sep 26
    @bigpapagates You know what type of scrutiny you guys are under and its very easy to check who is sitting in each 3 man. I do it
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  • Zieg30

    @hendog said...

    In my opinion the point of the no pooling entry fees rule is to prevent a situation where player A is giving money to player B to circumvent the max entry limit. If both players already have the bankroll to max enter in the first place then they are not circumventing the entry limit, since they could do the same without ever communicating.

    Are you now suggesting that the following is not a violation of the rules: Players A and B agree to share any profits/losses for a given tournament, they work together to build all 300 lineups such that the lineups, together, serve to meet exposure targets for various players and complement each other. Players A and B would have entered 150 lineups each regardless of this plan.

  • depalma13

    @hendog said...

    If it turns out that these guys don’t always have the same cash lineup and that’s something the accusers just assumed and stated as fact, that’s just emblematic of how ridiculous this whole conversation has been.

    I can’t speak for recently, but from June 8th until a week after the All Star break, they had the same exact lineup in Double Ups every day.

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