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  • Mphst18

    I am using the analysis of data to draw a conclusion and ask questions in the alleged scenario (the data is not alleged it is actual data). My views are not to be interpreted as fact but to allow individuals to determine if they feel they are playing a game with integrity or one that is monitoring for violations of entry limits and rules.

    Is this a form of circumventing Entry limits and or an alternate form of multi accounting (regardless of if they are actually two individuals)

    If two brothers or individuals take 50% of each others winnings and agree to risk the same amount every night (enter the same contests with the same number of entries) is this a violation guidelines/rule. Of note they may not technically be “pooling entry fees” as brother A does not send brother B any money for entry fees they just sum up or net profit at the end of the night and reconcile.

    They max enter every gpp mlb contest (for the max entries below 150 they don’t overlap entries (they may also not overlap for 150 but I am not digging through all that data as DK supposedly has a game integrity department that is supposed to be monitoring this stuff).

    Let’s look at 9/13 2016 data, the data for 9/6 shows the same as well and we can look at 9/20 data when that’s available: (my guess here it’s the same every day but just taking the Tue slates as that’s the big prize for DK)

    MLB $600K Power Hitter ($444, 45 max) – Chipolteaddict 45 entries, papagates 45 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $30K Warning Track ($150, 3 max) – Chipolteaddict 3 entries, papagates 3 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $5K Deep Mini Moonshot ($3, 50 max) – Chipolteaddict 50 entries, papagates 50 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $10K Slider ($3, 3max) – Chipolteaddict 3 entries, papagates 3 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $150K Payoff Pitch ($27, 150 max) – Chipolteaddict 150 entries, papagates 150 entries (I am not digging through 150 to determine overlap or not, other people are supposedly paid to do this)

  • stevietpfl

    Morning Grind co-host, Lead NASCAR Analyst

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    @Bighouse55 said...

    Any word if DK has officially banned the 2 cheaters?

    No official word on anything, so let’s stop calling them cheaters until we hear something.

  • Messiah717

    At the end of the day I think some of what’s being alleged is very difficult to prove. I also don’t see anyone getting banned because of this or being forced to return any money. I think DraftKings wants to at least give the appearance they’re taking any signs of impropriety seriously and are investigating. I think at the very least the two parties were called out on some things that hopefully they don’t just ignore and got right about on their merry way with the same behavior. That would include both brothers sitting in together in three man contests. As others have stated if there ever is a downfall of DFS the greed of some will likely end up being the death blow.

  • deactivated60279

    The problem now becomes anytime people that “work together” win any kind of substantial $, it’s possible it garners national news. Every time that occurs, it’s a black eye for DK and the industry. I think they’ll be sorry if they try to sweep this under the rug. Let’s face it, the guidelines were an immense failure.

  • Asylum13

    Is the argument that they discuss their lineups and may have some of the same exposure? Freaking really? People do whole shows about dfs and there are forums of people discussing different players. I have looked during live play and seen people I dont know and have never talked to that may have the same exact lineup as me or be one player off from mine. Especially when there are hundreds of thousand of players with lineups. These guys win more because they are playing thousands of dollars a day. If I had 10k to throw at dfs in a day and had thousands of lineups Im sure I would increase my % and winnings exponentially. If you are playing gpp and playing a couple of lineups in a tank full of sharks you should know the odds.

  • Messiah717

    It’s not just the idea of entering a lineup that somebody else might have. Of course we’re all aware that websites and other outlets post lineups their authors intend to use. The difference is that’s one lineup out of many they might be using. That said that’s not even the main issue. The main issue is not just playing tons of lineups and having a huge bankroll. It’s about whether or not two people are working and playing together and circumventing the entry limits to make sure every single lineup they enter is unique.

  • dude_abides7

    @Asylum13 said...

    Is the argument that they discuss their lineups and may have some of the same exposure? Freaking really?

    No…that’s not the argument. I don’t blame you for not wanting to drift through 35 pages. But the valid parts of the issue are there if you choose to read them.

  • AWoo

    FWIW, ChipotleAddict is back to playing in MLB gpps tonight. Papagates still nowhere to be found in mlb contests.

  • cutter2225

    @AWoo said...

    FWIW, ChipotleAddict is back to playing in MLB gpps tonight. Papagates still nowhere to be found in mlb contests.

    But when 2 is 1…

  • onebitbrain

    @hendog said...

    Either I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying or you’re misunderstanding the set cover problem. The application of the set cover problem in DFS would be trying to figure out the minimum set of lineups that would include all the players in the slate. How do you propose this be used to detect colluders exactly?

    You’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. I said “variant” of the set cover problem, meant to imply only that they are related, not that they are exact. I used it only as a jump off point to outline the starting point of a pseudo-algorithm. This would obviously have to be fleshed out to account for edge cases, etc.

    How do you propose this be used to detect colluders exactly? (See 3rd paragraph -> So if you are a site all you have to do is create a cross-product . . .)

    simple example: overlap table for 3 players, 1 tournament, each player max enters 150 lineups.

    players, saahil, chipotle, assani
    saahil 150, 10, 20
    chipotle 10, 150, 0
    assani 20, 0, 150

    Are assani and chipotle colluding here becasue they have no overlap? No, obviously we can’t draw any conclusion from a single data point. But if we collect their (everybody who multi-enters) overlap statistics overtime we would get an overlap distribution. Players who multi-enter a lot but never have overlap, would imply they are dividing up the covering set, thus colluding.

  • yeahthisiscuddy

    I’ll just leave this here: https://rotogrinders.com/threads/worried-about-cheating-collusion-883969. From a year ago.

  • rainbowtroutman

    @yeahthisiscuddy said...

    I’ll just leave this here: https://rotogrinders.com/threads/worried-about-cheating-collusion-883969. From a year ago.

    DK did nothing then and they will do nothing now. Chipolteaddict is in the $1 DU on DK every night. It isn’t against the rules so I guess its O.K. I quit DK because of him being in there every nite even though I did O.K. I just moved on to another site. Corruption and greed,thats all I have to say

  • Messiah717

    It’s greed, arrogance and ignorance. They don’t realize that it just chases more and more players away. Then the “pros” can sit in games every sit taking whatever money off of each other. $1 double ups when you’re winning million dollar contests? Give me a break. It’s pathetic. It’s like Phil Ivey going to a casino and sitting at a $5 table.

  • hendog

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    @onebitbrain said...

    You’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. I said “variant” of the set cover problem, meant to imply only that they are related, not that they are exact. I used it only as a jump off point to outline the starting point of a pseudo-algorithm. This would obviously have to be fleshed out to account for edge cases, etc.

    How do you propose this be used to detect colluders exactly? (See 3rd paragraph -> So if you are a site all you have to do is create a cross-product . . .)

    simple example: overlap table for 3 players, 1 tournament, each player max enters 150 lineups.

    players, saahil, chipotle, assani
    saahil 150, 10, 20
    chipotle 10, 150, 0
    assani 20, 0, 150

    Are assani and chipotle colluding here becasue they have no overlap? No, obviously we can’t draw any conclusion from a single data point. But if we collect their (everybody who multi-enters) overlap statistics overtime we would get an overlap distribution. Players who multi-enter a lot but never have overlap, would imply they are dividing up the covering set, thus colluding.

    Ah I see, I was overthinking it. You are simply saying to count the overlap and compare to the typical distribution of overlaps. I agree completely. In fact that is one of the first things I said here, was that you cannot judge anything from no overlap without comparing it to a baseline of how much 2 random players would overlap. (the common response was “you’re missing the human factor, these aren’t 2 random players”, completely missing the point)

    I actually started this analysis upthread, granted with only one tournament. I found that 75%+ of all 2-player combinations of max enterers had no overlap. Given that PG/CA had 4 and 12 duplicate lineups the first two weeks I would guess they are going to be well within the null distribution. But it would be worthwhile and interesting to see the data with more CSVs.

  • hendog

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    @yeahthisiscuddy said...

    I’ll just leave this here: https://rotogrinders.com/threads/worried-about-cheating-collusion-883969. From a year ago.

    LOL. Everyone in that thread is in agreement that it is not cheating. There was not even a debate. But I guess accusations count as evidence now?

  • Messiah717

    In the case of that many lineups between two brothers and no overlap I would say it’s pretty obvious what’s going on. It can be talked in circles over and over again but at some point common sense has to prevail.

  • hendog

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    But the thing is… they did have overlap. In the first 3 millionaire makers this season, including the one in question, they averaged 5 duplicate lineups per week. Still obvious?

  • AWoo

    Obviously, DK did nothing. Papagates is in afternoon slates for MLB today.

  • Mphst18

    That rake is too good to pass up.

  • Laxisfun1

    @hendog said...

    But the thing is… they did have overlap. In the first 3 millionaire makers this season, including the one in question, they averaged 5 duplicate lineups per week. Still obvious?

    Even when you bring this up people will just say they intentionally had overlap for the first two weeks so they would have probable deniability. You will never convince people on this board that they are not colluding. Some people cant handle it when others are successful and will dig in their heels and scream “CHEATER” no matter what the numbers actually suggest.

  • cutter2225

    @Laxisfun1 said...

    Even when you bring this up people will just say they intentionally had overlap for the first two weeks so they would have probable deniability. You will never convince people on this board that they are not colluding. Some people cant handle it when others are successful and will dig in their heels and scream “CHEATER” no matter what the numbers actually suggest.

    I’m one of the people who believes they did/are working together and to be honest why wouldn’t they. These guys are brothers so I’m sure they trust each other in a financial partnership, they have a huge bankroll and are very good at DFS. Working together and not against each other is the smart thing to do and since its clear the sites are either ill-equipped or simply do not care to seriously enforce any form of fair play, they took advantage of it.

  • dude_abides7

    @AWoo said...

    Obviously, DK did nothing. Papagates is in afternoon slates for MLB today.

    I’m so glad DK gave us the clarification on this the industry has been begging for before opening up the flood gates again.

    If these guys did nothing wrong and are completely cleared, don’t you think it is important to come out with a statement? Don’t they realize the optics of their silence when they know people are waiting for them to weigh in?

    DK is proving once again what they are….money driven rake whores who care ZERO about 98% of their customer base. Scum.

  • deactivated51600

    @AWoo said...

    Obviously, DK did nothing. Papagates is in afternoon slates for MLB today.

    Yep. After winning Milly Maker last weekend Papagates has his 50 entries locked in for tonights MLB 1.5K Quarter Arcade. Wow, just wow.

    He also made sure he got his 40 max entries into the $300 prize pool afternoon Quarter Arcade event with $43 first prize.

  • Mphst18

    Oh the statement is clear.

    Team up, use a projection site who may or may not keep your data, tell so said hypocritical projection site to pull 1 of the many files you downloaded which they may or may not keep on their server, send DK your wire info, max enter the quarter arcade.

  • Zieg30

    @hendog said...

    But the thing is… they did have overlap. In the first 3 millionaire makers this season, including the one in question, they averaged 5 duplicate lineups per week. Still obvious?

    Haha. Come on. Using the “average” is such a disingenuous way to present the data.

    Your point is strong enough saying they overlapped in the first two.

  • hendog

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    Well I think having 4 and 12 duplicate lineups is more notable than if they had 1 in each. It makes it harder to say they did it just to cover up. But whatever, sorry for making too strong a point.

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