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  • Mphst18

    I am using the analysis of data to draw a conclusion and ask questions in the alleged scenario (the data is not alleged it is actual data). My views are not to be interpreted as fact but to allow individuals to determine if they feel they are playing a game with integrity or one that is monitoring for violations of entry limits and rules.

    Is this a form of circumventing Entry limits and or an alternate form of multi accounting (regardless of if they are actually two individuals)

    If two brothers or individuals take 50% of each others winnings and agree to risk the same amount every night (enter the same contests with the same number of entries) is this a violation guidelines/rule. Of note they may not technically be “pooling entry fees” as brother A does not send brother B any money for entry fees they just sum up or net profit at the end of the night and reconcile.

    They max enter every gpp mlb contest (for the max entries below 150 they don’t overlap entries (they may also not overlap for 150 but I am not digging through all that data as DK supposedly has a game integrity department that is supposed to be monitoring this stuff).

    Let’s look at 9/13 2016 data, the data for 9/6 shows the same as well and we can look at 9/20 data when that’s available: (my guess here it’s the same every day but just taking the Tue slates as that’s the big prize for DK)

    MLB $600K Power Hitter ($444, 45 max) – Chipolteaddict 45 entries, papagates 45 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $30K Warning Track ($150, 3 max) – Chipolteaddict 3 entries, papagates 3 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $5K Deep Mini Moonshot ($3, 50 max) – Chipolteaddict 50 entries, papagates 50 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $10K Slider ($3, 3max) – Chipolteaddict 3 entries, papagates 3 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $150K Payoff Pitch ($27, 150 max) – Chipolteaddict 150 entries, papagates 150 entries (I am not digging through 150 to determine overlap or not, other people are supposedly paid to do this)

  • Nobakov

    @Cal said...

    This is just completely wrong. You underestimate how many lineup combinations there are even with a diminished core. Your misunderstanding here is giving you what you think is a foundation to call someone a cheater. You shouldn’t be so quick to drag someone’s name through the mud. This is exactly what DK was looking into when the cleared these two guys. Not only are you not understanding the situation, you’re also saying that DraftKings investigation into these two accounts was a sham.

    But if they talk about the players and come to a consensus on their cores, have the same cores, we’re supposed to believe they don’t come to a general consensus on the rest of the players? IE: We like this guy a lot, but not enough to be in our core. Or, we’re not touching this guy. Which would lead to *some identical LU’s.

    It’s the repeated pattern of it. Max or close to max entering with the same cores and NO identical LU’s. Over time and countless slates, that adds up.

  • Cal

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    @Nobakov said...

    But if they talk about the players and come to a consensus on their cores, have the same cores, we’re supposed to believe they don’t come to a general consensus on the rest of the players? IE: We like this guy a lot, but not enough to be in our core. Or, we’re not touching this guy. Which would lead to *some identical LU’s.

    I edited my last post to mention Mazwa/Raging Philip distribution that RangerC posted. That one seemed pretty likely to produce overlap but they had no overlap. The player pool was very small and the distribution of ownership across the two sets was very similar. It was fishy, and that post/debate (I believe) directly led to the Community Guidelines. DraftKings is on the lookout for that type of activity now. They looked into it for PG/CA. They even talked to the Wall St. Journal about it. They didn’t find collusion.

  • Cal

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    @Nobakov said...

    It’s the repeated pattern of it. Max or close to max entering with the same cores and NO identical LU’s. Over time and countless slates, that adds up.

    Did you look at any evidence before making the claim that they NEVER have identical rosters across all slates?

    Here’s an excerpt from one of PapaGates own posts in this thread:

    Don’t want to get into debating every single point, but just want to point out that for some of you, the burden of proof is disturbingly low. This is an extremely dangerous precedent to set for obvious reasons. For example, it has been repeated numerous times throughout this thread how we never have overlapping lineups in gpps. Mphst brings up data from 9/20 yet only uses the data that serves his narrative and ignores that 4 of our lineups overlap in the payoff pitch that day. I pointed this out in my original post but that was also ignored because it didn’t fit with the narrative of this thread. Many people have referenced this “pattern of data”, yet it took 30 pages of posts before the first person looked back at week 1 or 2? Since it’s clear nobody is going to go back and look at the data as rayofhope suggested I’ll add that we had 4 lineups of overlap in week 2, and 12 in week 1. 12!!! Where is the unfair advantage in that? I’m sure this won’t prove anything to many of you but when the most basic facts of the allegations prove to be false, what is left to the allegations other than the fact that we are brothers?

  • Cal

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    @phillygamecox said...

    u don’t want to alienate the RG people, but you also have relationships with the sites which is what drives your business in the first place.

    RG is not a uniform group of people. Every post I make is likely to alienate one group while making another nod its head in agreement. And I’m not shilling for DraftKings – I’m trying to get people to think critically and consider evidence instead of just witch hunting and posting speculation as fact.

    It looks like we agree on quite a few things. I didn’t say DK has “good” Community Guidelines. I said there was good discussion of the guidelines on Matt’s interview. Every time I talk to DK about this I suggest they further clarify the guidelines. Part of the problem in these threads is that various people posting are interpreting them differently.

  • hendog

    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    Yeah holy crap it’s crazy how quick this thread gets to be like 20 posts in a row saying “I can’t believe they never have duplicate lineups, what a scam,” when it actually turns out they DO have duplicate lineups.

  • reztes757

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    @hendog said...

    Yeah holy crap it’s crazy how quick this thread gets to be like 20 posts in a row saying “I can’t believe they never have duplicate lineups, what a scam,” when it actually turns out they DO have duplicate lineups.

    That’s what happens when no one takes the time to look through the 1000+ lineup sample size we have now

  • btwice80

    @hendog said...

    Yeah holy crap it’s crazy how quick this thread gets to be like 20 posts in a row saying “I can’t believe they never have duplicate lineups, what a scam,” when it actually turns out they DO have duplicate lineups.

    The hilarious/sad part is, the fact of duplicates doesn’t even matter to a lot of people who have already made up their minds. They say the duplicates were intentional as a defense against accusations.

  • phillygamecox

    @Cal said...

    RG is not a uniform group of people. Every post I make is likely to alienate one group while making another nod its head in agreement. And I’m not shilling for DraftKings – I’m trying to get people to think critically and consider evidence instead of just witch hunting and posting speculation as fact.

    It looks like we agree on quite a few things. I didn’t say DK has “good” Community Guidelines. I said there was good discussion of the guidelines on Matt’s interview. Every time I talk to DK about this I suggest they further clarify the guidelines. Part of the problem in these threads is that various people posting are interpreting them differently.

    Agreed Cal that we are thinking along the same lines, and apologize that my interpretation was incorrect of what you said about the discussion with Kalish.

    Again, my main points for the past year or two on these forums are that the sites tend to react to situations only when stuff really hits the fan, and aren’t proactive to envision potential issues within the industry. Will they see everything that MAY happen? Of course not. But, time and time again, they have handled many of the gripes of the industry poorly and without clear explanations and guidelines. I’m hopeful that if the merger does go through, things will be greatly tightened up and keep DFS moving ahead in a more open manner.

  • AVivier

    At some point there is diminishing returns for unique lineups. Surely if you could enter 5,000 lineups, lineup # 5,000 has a negative expectation.

    Has there been any analysis by people smarter than me where that line is? Is lineup 300 even a plus EV play? Or more of a plus EV play than 2 lineups of lineup #1?

  • dude_abides7

    @Cal said...

    RG is not a uniform group of people. Every post I make is likely to alienate one group while making another nod its head in agreement. And I’m not shilling for DraftKings – I’m trying to get people to think critically and consider evidence instead of just witch hunting and posting speculation as fact.

    It looks like we agree on quite a few things. I didn’t say DK has “good” Community Guidelines. I said there was good discussion of the guidelines on Matt’s interview. Every time I talk to DK about this I suggest they further clarify the guidelines. Part of the problem in these threads is that various people posting are interpreting them differently.

    I hear what you are saying Cal and I understand (and respect) your unique position. I don’t think there is any shilling going on. But there is a HUGE difference between saying they investigated and ‘found no wrong doing’ and claiming DK has a “sufficient” system for monitoring guideline abuse.

    And to the Mazwa/Raging Philip cases that you admitted were “fishy”….so OK, what happened there? Exactly, a slap on the wrist and back at it again. Hardly a deterrent. So would a reasonable person be surprised by user skepticism that they “have it all fixed now”. Come on, I know we can’t have people going all willy-nilly making baseless accusations, but we can’t also be so naive to think that some won’t take advantage when given a window of opportunity to do just that. Needing to catch someone in the act should not the grounds for action. Leaving the chicken coop door open potentially to the wolves is the issue here. Neglect, purposeful or not, to protect the integrity of your product is the issue.

    My position is that DK has been grossly negligent in protecting their TOS and their guidelines. If I should be banned for saying this, then so be it. But how many times have we been here questioning the motives and actions of DK on controversial matters? How many times have they completely fell short in properly communicating how they came to make the decisions (or lack of decisions for that matter) to which they ultimately settle? How many times have legions of users requested simply nothing more but transparency and clarifications on some of the vague language in their TOS and guidelines?

    I will not go as far as say that there is nefarious intent in DK looking the other way in favor of increased revenue, although some have made that exact point. I simple believe that DK, from the top, is being run by inept leadership that don’t have the experience or the business acumen to run a company of this size and most importantly in this volatile climate where governmental influences are just looking for the opportunity to pounce. I should be afforded this opinion because it is not founded on a grudge or malice of any kind. This conclusion is drawn by evidence as it relates to how DK has handled (and continues to handle) issues and falls brutally short in the areas of customer communication and transparency. We can’t expect a company to be perfect….but I would argue things are getting worse, not better.

    I am hoping this post falls within the measure of civil and fair discourse needed to remain on this thread and forum.

  • Shipmymoney

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    @dude_abides7 said...

    The reason people stopped clamoring about it was because DK decided to ignore the entire issue and the majority of us have better things to do then constantly swim up-stream. It was deemed a lost cause.

    The general consensus is that these guys circumvent entry limits by coordinating their lineups to prevent overlap, sans their core. The fact that they did not cash recently is irrelevant. Their mode of play and their insistence to dig down to the $.25 games is despicable. It is DK’s job to prevent this, not for these two to stop. That is the problem.

    Feel free to defend them though…all good,

    Swimming upstream has never stopped most people on here before. It doesn’t matter what the “general consensus” is when it is not based in fact at all. The actual argument here basically boils down to “these guys discuss plays and are really good and I want them to stop because they’re better than me”.

  • geardaddy

    @btwice80 said...

    The hilarious/sad part is, the fact of duplicates doesn’t even matter to a lot of people who have already made up their minds. They say the duplicates were intentional as a defense against accusations.

    So are you saying because they have possible duplicates in 150 max entry contest this makes them innocent? lets just forget about the countless times they have been interlaying with each other but they have a couple duplicates sometimes so they didn’t collude. This isn’t just papagates had one entry next to chipotle. It is literally them having several entries next to each other.

  • Cal

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    @dude_abides7 said...

    And to the Mazwa/Raging Philip cases that you admitted were “fishy”….so OK, what happened there? Exactly, a slap on the wrist and back at it again.

    Do you have evidence that Mazwa and Raging Phillip are at it again? I mean real evidence like what RangerC posted originally. Not “they have similar players.”

    Mazwa/Raging Phillip PGA Milly Maker situation was before the community guidelines. I believe it led directly to the community guidelines in an attempt to make it clear what is/isn’t allowed. If those two were to have that kind of fishy distribution again it should be posted here and investigated by the team DK put together when they posted the Guidelines.

    If you don’t like the way CA/PG play then distill your points and explain why you think it is bad. But understand that it is allowed under DK’s Terms of Service and Community Guidelines. It is not cheating and it is not breaking any collusive rules DK has posted.

  • BmoreClutch

    @Cal said...

    Do you have evidence that Mazwa and Raging Phillip are at it again? I mean real evidence like what RangerC posted originally. Not “they have similar players.”

    Mazwa/Raging Phillip PGA Milly Maker situation was before the community guidelines. I believe it led directly to the community guidelines in an attempt to make it clear what is/isn’t allowed. If those two were to have that kind of fishy distribution again it should be posted here and investigated by the team DK put together when they posted the Guidelines.

    If you don’t like the way CA/PG play then distill your points and explain why you think it is bad. But understand that it is allowed under DK’s Terms of Service and Community Guidelines. It is not cheating and it is not breaking any collusive rules DK has posted.

    Does he need evidence that Mazwa/Raging are at it again? I think his point is that those 2 got caught cheating, and DK did absolutely nothing about it. In fact those 2 got their entry fees back and were playing again within days.

    There shouldn’t even be an opportunity to do it again. People have had their DK accounts locked for far less. So you can understand why people are skeptical about DK.

    Edit: I have Mazwa/Raging confused with Daily/Mir (it’s hard to keep track of all this). My point still stands though. DK did absolutely nothing about either group.

  • dude_abides7

    @Cal said...

    Do you have evidence that Mazwa and Raging Phillip are at it again? I mean real evidence like what RangerC posted originally. Not “they have similar players.”

    Mazwa/Raging Phillip PGA Milly Maker situation was before the community guidelines. I believe it led directly to the community guidelines in an attempt to make it clear what is/isn’t allowed. If those two were to have that kind of fishy distribution again it should be posted here and investigated by the team DK put together when they posted the Guidelines.

    If you don’t like the way CA/PG play then distill your points and explain why you think it is bad. But understand that it is allowed under DK’s Terms of Service and Community Guidelines. It is not cheating and it is not breaking any collusive rules DK has posted.

    - I have no evidence that they were at it again. Never claimed to. I was stating the punishment should have been more than a 48 hour timeout. That said, I understand your point that this activity was before the newer guidelines. But the problem now is that even these “newer” guidelines are vague and need clarification. Have we got it yet? Do you think that is a problem?

    EDIT: By “back at it” I meant they were allowed to resume active account status. I wasn’t claiming they went right back to colluding.

    - If what CA/PG do (interlaying their lineups to get more coverage than is possible with a 150 entry cap) is OK and within the rules for DK…then I guess it has to be OK with us. But as I always contended, I think it is DK’s responsibility to clarify their rules and guidelines and most importantly, protect them. It appears you feel they do a good job with that? Well, I think they do an awful job at that. It’s an honest disagreement.

    - You keep asking for “proof” when I think it is pretty obvious that you can’t honestly prove something like collusion for certain. You literally would need to be in the room with them discussing how they could get 300 entry coverage by their LU structure and know the agreement (if any) they have for sharing winnings.

    The bottom line is that I do not see evidence in DK’s actions that they are properly protecting the integrity of their games. Too much vagueness, not enough clear, precise language. I propose this is by intent. I don’t trust that they are doing the right thing…just because you say so. Why? Because we have had no less then 5-7 major blowouts in the last 2 years and the only common denominator was DK and their mismanagement and poor handling of the situation. The damn barn needed to go up in flames before they even addressed that there was a fire. They are never proactive, only reactive and often after it is “too late” and the horse has bolted.

    - Not to dig up old bones, but all the site apologists were demanding “proof” during the whole scripting controversy. Trying to claim these guys were actually spending 3-5 hours plugging in 250-500 LU’s. There is no proof of scripting they said. Nothing to see here they said. Just build a better lineup they said. Then DK admitted these guys were using scripts (not because they wanted to but because the govt made them dig into it) But, instead of punishing them, they changed their TOS to support the use of scripts. Does that sound like good business decision practice to you?

    Yes, different scenario for sure. But I am saying it is the same failed management repeating itself now.

  • rainbowtroutman

    Hopefully,with regulation, we have concrete “rules” and “laws” instead of “community guidelines”. As for me, no matter what, I am done with D.K. Too bad they took over Draftstreet. That was a great site.

  • Cal

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    @dude_abides7 said...

    - If what CA/PG do (interlaying their lineups to get more coverage than is possible with a 150 entry cap) is OK and within the rules for DK…then I guess it has to be OK with us. But as I always contended, I think it is DK’s responsibility to clarify their rules and guidelines and most importantly, protect them. It appears you feel they do a good job with that? Well, I think they do an awful job at that. It’s an honest disagreement.

    You make some good points in your post but this part needs clarification. It is 100% against the rules to interlay lineups to get around the 150 entry cap and split proceeds.

    What I’m saying, and what DK is implying by letting it continue, is that CA/PG are not interlaying their lineups to get around the 150 entry cap. Instead, they are working off of a similar group of picks or projections, similar to what subscribers to a premium content site may do.

    The Mazwa/Raging Phillip PGA situation had pretty strong evidence of the interlaying of picks/percentages to get around the 150 entry cap. The CA/PG situation doesn’t have that kind of evidence. It looks more like they put some amount of work together to figure out who the best plays are then play those guys. The fact that PG/CA are brothers, they mass multi entry tons of contests, and they have success put them in the spotlight, but this is a common thing that DFS players do.

    If you think entry limits should be lower or that players that play in $1,000 buyin tournaments should not be able to play in $1 tournaments then by all means make your argument. You’ll find a lot of support on this forum for that. But let’s keep the speculation and accusations at bay – one person saying “these guys are cheating” can make hundreds of others blindly agree. We see that happening in this thread. I noticed three threads this morning where people were complaining about overlapping lineups on a three game slate. I’m sure the mods will consolidate those, but it’s a clear example that RG is a diverse readership with varying degrees of ability to discern what is fishy and what is normal. Let’s help it out trying to keep these debates from allowing speculation to be viewed as fact.

  • mwgdfs

    I haven’t read whole thread yet but I reported them to Draftkings last week. You can send an email to the DK Game Integrity and Ethics team at gameintegrity@draftkings.com. I doubt anything will happen as they are high volume players and I can’t seem them really caring much as long as they get their entry fees.

  • sjs1890

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBC Finalist

    @rainbowtroutman said...

    Hopefully,with regulation, we have concrete “rules” and “laws” instead of “community guidelines”. As for me, no matter what, I am done with D.K. Too bad they took over Draftstreet. That was a great site.

    Yeah hopefully we can actually get some concrete rules that would be nice. Its not job of the people, rg co founder, touts etc to interpret the rules. Its the sites responsibility and they have failed plain and simple. Having a set of rules is not rocket science you’d think DK would be able to hire competent people. Yeah its a total shame and a sham that DK took Draftstreet’s EXCELLENT product and just completely threw it away just sad after they kept telling us time and time again they would implement a lot of Draftstreet features yet we were lied to and I dont see the upper rg people holding them accountable for their false promises.

  • jah2323

    To summarize this thread:

    A large proportion of the “pro’s” who make a living at DFS don’t see this as much of an issue (not many rayofhope’s out there).

    The recreational player is far more concerned, but has very little voice.

    Many ways to explain this, but don’t feel like typing them out.

  • steelcitydozer

    Everyone wasting your time DK is getting their money every time a contest fills . these guys are helping fill every contest. Game set match . they are here to make money

  • behemoth

    Papa/Chipotle breached a reasonable interpretation of the DK community guidelines. To now not clarify what is/is not allowed is shameful in a (possibly) now struggling industry. Do they care or are they turning the other cheek? Too much ignoring while hoping the big players keep playing. Either way they are contributing to their downfall.

  • RangerC

    BTW there is still no statement as to WHY chipotle/BPG were cleared – best I could find was this:

    “This week Crowley confirmed he had been exonerated by the DraftKings probe. While the site itself said that it could not comment publicly on specific cases, it confirmed it found no wrongdoing.”

    So we still don’t know WHY they were cleared.

    Another nugget from actually reading the articles:

    “Aguair claimed that the site’s system had already flagged up suspicions about the brothers before the accusations appeared on internet forums.”

    So according to DKs own internal system, their play was suspicious (or DK is lying to cover their butt here) and the suspicions of players here were valid as well.

    The problem is that it’s not clear at all why they were exonerated in the end. Was it because they had overlapping LUs in the past? The FantasyCruncher data (which was controversial itself)? Or something else?

  • dude_abides7

    @Cal said...

    You make some good points in your post but this part needs clarification. It is 100% against the rules to interlay lineups to get around the 150 entry cap and split proceeds.

    What I’m saying, and what DK is implying by letting it continue, is that CA/PG are not interlaying their lineups to get around the 150 entry cap. Instead, they are working off of a similar group of picks or projections, similar to what subscribers to a premium content site may do.

    Once again, I get it. I think we agree more than we disagree. That said, on one hand it sounds like you feel DK did their due diligence on this case, but on another you agree that DK’s conditions are too vague and leave too much to interpretation? In essence, that right there is the problem! They can’t be doing a good job of keeping the water in the tub while leaving the drain open at the same time.

    We need clear and precise rules. This is not just to protect the product and the player base from potential “cheating” but also to protect the potentially accused from being ostracized unfairly. For example, I would be just as much against someone getting banned because I feel the guidelines are so vague on important matters that they could be argued either way. That’s not cool. We need white and black and I think DK allows gray area purposely to dodge having to act against their own monetary interests.

    For me it comes down to piss poor management by a badly run company that needs to get their act together now before it is too late.

    And for the record, I absolutely do not believe for one minute that DK was already investigating PG/CA before that article came out. They were covering their ass, 100%. There had been dozens of people that reported them for potential suspicious activity back months previously in the baseball season. They were unilaterally ignored. The evidence for MLB was much more fishy than the Week 11 stuff. DK DID NOTHING until the story got national attention….then they dodged and weaved like they always do…..hiding behind a vague TOS.

    Here’s an exercise – Can anyone state one time for the record where DK did the right thing? Do we have one case where they acted not based on reactionary measures to controversy or from mandates set forth by regulators? Have they once been proactive in protecting the integrity of their product and the DFS ecosystem on whole?

    It seems to me that everything that DK has done to “protect DFS” so far (entry limits, beginner contests, ban scripting etc) was handled in a manner where their hand was forced. If they actually believed in these protections they would have instituted them 2 years prior when the user base was pleading for them. I’m sorry, these guys have a lot to prove and they aren’t doing any better in proving it if you ask me.

  • Cal

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    @RangerC said...

    The problem is that it’s not clear at all why they were exonerated in the end. Was it because they had overlapping LUs in the past? The FantasyCruncher data (which was controversial itself)? Or something else?

    I would love statements on some of the cases that have become high profile. I think it would be reassuring to the community. I’ve suggested this to multiple people at DK and they’ve made it clear they won’t comment on individual cases because of their privacy policy. It seems like a mistake to me but I don’t have a grasp of the legal intricacies of their privacy policy.

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