INDUSTRY FORUM

Comments

  • Mphst18

    I am using the analysis of data to draw a conclusion and ask questions in the alleged scenario (the data is not alleged it is actual data). My views are not to be interpreted as fact but to allow individuals to determine if they feel they are playing a game with integrity or one that is monitoring for violations of entry limits and rules.

    Is this a form of circumventing Entry limits and or an alternate form of multi accounting (regardless of if they are actually two individuals)

    If two brothers or individuals take 50% of each others winnings and agree to risk the same amount every night (enter the same contests with the same number of entries) is this a violation guidelines/rule. Of note they may not technically be “pooling entry fees” as brother A does not send brother B any money for entry fees they just sum up or net profit at the end of the night and reconcile.

    They max enter every gpp mlb contest (for the max entries below 150 they don’t overlap entries (they may also not overlap for 150 but I am not digging through all that data as DK supposedly has a game integrity department that is supposed to be monitoring this stuff).

    Let’s look at 9/13 2016 data, the data for 9/6 shows the same as well and we can look at 9/20 data when that’s available: (my guess here it’s the same every day but just taking the Tue slates as that’s the big prize for DK)

    MLB $600K Power Hitter ($444, 45 max) – Chipolteaddict 45 entries, papagates 45 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $30K Warning Track ($150, 3 max) – Chipolteaddict 3 entries, papagates 3 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $5K Deep Mini Moonshot ($3, 50 max) – Chipolteaddict 50 entries, papagates 50 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $10K Slider ($3, 3max) – Chipolteaddict 3 entries, papagates 3 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $150K Payoff Pitch ($27, 150 max) – Chipolteaddict 150 entries, papagates 150 entries (I am not digging through 150 to determine overlap or not, other people are supposedly paid to do this)

  • Zieg30

    • 530

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @dude_abides7 said...

    We need clear and precise rules. This is not just to protect the product and the player base from potential “cheating” but also to protect the potentially accused from being ostracized unfairly. For example, I would be just as much against someone getting banned because I feel the guidelines are so vague on important matters that they could be argued either way. That’s not cool. We need white and black and I think DK allows gray area purposely to dodge having to act against their own monetary interests.

    The rule that led to the creation of this thread and its lengthy discussion is clear and concise, though. Proving that this clear and concise rule was violated is the problem.

    So, while I laud your point here, and agree that all rules should be as clear and concise as possible, it frequently won’t make any difference when it comes to potential violations and the investigations thereof.

  • dude_abides7

    @Zieg30 said...

    So, while I laud your point here, and agree that all rules should be as clear and concise as possible, it frequently won’t make any difference when it comes to potential violations and the investigations thereof.

    I hear ya. I guess I am saying that there is a good deal of things that DK (all sites) can do better and it starts with communication.

    Good win by the way today….I was at the game, tough one for us considering the amount of shots we tossed at Henry. Dude is a stud….must be nice. lol

  • Zieg30

    • 530

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @dude_abides7 said...

    I hear ya. I guess I am saying that there is a good deal of things that DK (all sites) can do better and it starts with communication.

    Good win by the way today….I was at the game, tough one for us considering the amount of shots we tossed at Henry. Dude is a stud….must be nice. lol

    Agreed (and I see that I should have been saying “precise” rather than “concise”, though brevity is useful too

    Very happy to squeak away with that win. Already dreading when HL finally can’t produce at a high level).

  • RangerC

    @dude_abides7 said...

    Here’s an exercise – Can anyone state one time for the record where DK did the right thing? Do we have one case where they acted not based on reactionary measures to controversy or from mandates set forth by regulators? Have they once been proactive in protecting the integrity of their product and the DFS ecosystem on whole?

    I really can’t stand the monopolistic behavior of DK overall (still can’t believe the whole retroactive scripting change in their TOS) but we can’t forget DK covered the balances of all of us who were screwed by FantasyHUB (and the charities as well); while their main goal may have been to stave off AG investigations and bad publicity at a time where they were trying to pass regulation this was definitely a proactive move that helped a lot of mid-tier players that they most certainly did not have to do.

  • btwice80

    @jah2323 said...

    To summarize this thread:

    A large proportion of the “pro’s” who make a living at DFS don’t see this as much of an issue (not many rayofhope’s out there).

    I’m not going back through all 40 pages, but I’m pretty certain that a large proportion of DFS pros have not posted in this thread, so I don’t know how that even remotely fits in a summary of it. Shipmymoney is the only one I recall posting that could be considered a pro, but maybe there were a couple others, definitely no more than a tiny proportion.

  • Heterodox

    If you read between the lines on Twitter, or catch comments before the person who made them realizes he’s in danger of becoming another Gabey and either deletes it or walks it back a bit, you can see that there are more people who think this is an issue than are willing to comment about it. There is a lot of concern out there about the current state of DFS and the future. I think most “pros” have understood all along that this thing can’t last forever, or just that it can’t be as good as it was forever, but they also don’t want to do anything to hasten the decline in profitability of playing this game, or burn bridges with friends/colleagues/potential employers. It also doesn’t directly affect anyone’s ability to make money, so maybe it’s not worth the risk of putting themselves out there.

    It’s worth noting, however, that people’s perception of the guy who posted this thread might be skewed by the fact that he doesn’t promote himself or link his accounts. I know I’ve seen him max enter $27 contests, which is something I don’t think a lot of casual players are doing, and we know from his posts that he takes on top players in H2Hs. So, maybe “pro” isn’t the right word, because I don’t know how the guy makes his living, but if you’re wondering where all the big-time players are on this, maybe don’t discount the guy leading the charge. Of course, he’s leading that charge on other sites now, which is just fantastic for the already stale and Potemkin-like “community” here.

  • badlands92

    Excellent post, heterodox.

  • querb

    running the exact same lines

    https://www.fanduel.com/games/17193/contests/17193-204813964/entries/1102981466/scoring?entry=1103400614

  • dude_abides7

    @querb said...

    running the exact same lines

    https://www.fanduel.com/games/17193/contests/17193-204813964/entries/1102981466/scoring?entry=1103400614

    Lol…I’m sure it was a coincidence. That said, running the same LU is not a violation at this point.

  • mwgdfs

    like someone said, DK doesnt care as long as their contests fill

    email I received back on this:

    —— (DraftKings)
    Nov 22, 8:51 AM EST
    Good Morning,
    Thank you for reaching out to the DraftKings Game Integrity & Ethics Team, and for our patience.
    Ensuring complete fairness in all of our games and maintaining the trust of our players is of paramount importance to DraftKings. We have built sophisticated systems to continuously monitor every entry in every DraftKings game. When a concern is identified, our Game Integrity and Ethics team thoroughly investigates the issue and takes appropriate steps to make sure all of our players are treated fairly.
    If you have any further questions, please let us know.
    ——
    Customer Experience Supervisor
    Game Integrity & Ethics

  • MikeOkistini2

    Not to resurrect the dead but not sure if it is really cheating, just a way to get 300 entries in a 150 max contest. But 300 entries in a 140,000 entry pool is .002% of all entries so still lottery ticket like. What it does do, is if they are smart in how they set up their line up (because there are way more than 300 possible combinations of good players to pick) is allow them to shotgun a number of entries in the top 1000 that maybe adds up to good money over their fees (i.e. finish 11, 50, 55, 70, 110, 200, 500, 1200 and add up). To me it is more the advantage of deep pockets to load up on more chances rather than cheating which is their advantage over someone with a $300 bankroll only playing $30 a night in the small tourneys.

    I am not in favor of it, as a small bankroll player and if I hit a $12,000 pot maybe I would start doing 150 entries in the $3 tourneys, who knows. I just think that if they are indeed doing it, it is easy to avoid doing single entry tourneys or paying up for larger fee GPPs with smaller entry pools (i.e. $5 or $10 tourney may have 5000 entries versus 150,000 entries in $1 single entry GPP or $3 tourneys.

    I think that the unfairness of their approach can be avoided slightly by playing the diversity of FDs or DK offerings since the unfairness of it is not something FD or DK look to be trying to stop as they make money. Also they can always claim that 300 entries out of 140,000 entries still givesd them tiny odds and what lets them make money is their skill in setting up good lineups within the 150 entries. I still don’t like it since a 150 entry max should not be a farce but proving 2 or 3 players are pooling is beyond difficult since it is like card counting in some ways- hard to prove just because someone is winning and not illegal but frowned upon.

  • Pitch120

    Wanted to make it known that the last two nights Ive played 50/50s and both nights, these two had the same exact lineups…How is that possible?

  • nam6641

    • x2

      2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    Going from 150 entries to 300 entries when you have a small slate (like this upcoming weekend’s NFL 2 games) is a huge advantage. On a full slate it is still an advantage but less of one. If you want a fair fight go into a heads up with them where they have no advantage from their methods. If the three man contest method is actually happening they deserve to get their ass kicked. Reminds me of the online poker days when there would be a few buddies sitting at the same table and on the phone with each other, someone gets the nuts and they all go into the pot to draw other people into a big pot, f’in scammers.

  • dude_abides7

    @MikeOkistini2 said...

    Not to resurrect the dead but not sure if it is really cheating, just a way to get 300 entries in a 150 max contest. But 300 entries in a 140,000 entry pool is .002% of all entries so still lottery ticket like.

    Finding a “way to get 300 entries in a 150 max contest” IS cheating. This is not debatable, even the sites prohibit (or at least state to prohibit) this type of collusion to create an end-around entry limits. It doesn’t matter if it’s .002% or 20% of the pool. It is not allowed per the sites’ policy and should be regulated.

  • Unico10

    • 739

      RG Overall Ranking

    @MikeOkistini2 said...

    not sure if it is really cheating, just a way to get 300 entries in a 150 max contest.

    Unreal

  • NoLimits0

    I might as well bump this thread up because I’m willing to bet some people out there will have some serious issues with what papagates and chipotleaddict are doing in the 33 dollar and 8 dollar tourneys tonight on DK MLB. Basically they have the same pitcher and team stacks but never the exact same overall team (all the teams are one or two offs from each other). What are the chances they have the like similar pitcher and hitting stacks but never get an exact dupe with all the players being the same (which maximizes EV in a tournament becuase dupes make you lose EV)? I know when I played in a 10000 man tourney the other day my team alone got like 5 dupes yet these people can manage to not get a single dupe between them despite all the other similarities.

  • superstars92

    Looks like super strong circumstantial evidence tonight, but maybe they were just both super high on MIA and KC and there are like maybe 15,000 legit permutations between those two teams (more if you want the non-legit ones that have like Ichiro, etc.), so it’s theoretically possible to argue they (mathematically) might not have a single overlapping one if they only did 300 between them.

    But looks like they are winning like everything tonight on DK.

  • yisman

    It’s collusion and like Nam said, it bears a resemblance to the scams people would pull with online poker.

  • jokerswild22

    They’re not colluding if they’re not splitting profits.

    This beast is dead. Let it be dead.

  • madmanjayWV

    Get over it and build better lineups!

  • DSofM

    • 92

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #15

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • 2020 NASCAR Live Finalist

    • Blogger of the Month

    @jokerswild22 said...

    They’re not colluding if they’re not splitting profits.

    This beast is dead. Let it be dead.

    Actually the rule is the direct opposite of this. They can split profits, they just can’t actively collude to circumvent entry limits.

  • jokerswild22

    @JoeFlacco05 said...

    Actually the rule is the direct opposite of this. They can split profits, they just can’t actively collude to circumvent entry limits.

    I wouldn’t define that as “direct” opposite. But cool correction bro.

  • sochoice

    • 2017 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2017 FanDuel WFFC Champion

    Funny how no one has anything to say about this topic on those nights where these guys win nothing. Do similar lineups not matter then?

  • celtics2448

    @sochoice said...

    Funny how no one has anything to say about this topic on those nights where these guys win nothing. Do similar lineups not matter then?

    Is this serious? it’s common sense to figure out why they aren’t mentioned when they aren’t winning? No one is going to notice if they had shitty lineups because we won’t see them on the top of the leader board. Are people like me entering these GPPs once or twice at an advantage when these two clowns tank one night? Definitely. But it works the other way far more often then not.

    In another thread, these guys admitting to sharing the same projections and the same optimizer. Considering this, and the fact that there is never any overlap between these two, how can they NOT be cheating. I can’t even think of how that is even possible. Maybe one day, maybe two, but not every single fucking day. It’s just not mathematically possible without putting serious work into making sure it doesn’t happen. Considering the amount of discontent towards this situation here, and elsewhere on the internet coupled with the shrinking userbase (i stopped playing FanDuel because of this exact topic) it’s very hard to comprehend how anyone can defend these guys. They’re killing the industry.

    ChipolteAddict won the 20 entry max $4 yesterday. And that’s usually all i play, and i’m 100% content with that because in theory he should’ve only had 20 lineups (they had 40, obviously but me chances are still better there then elsewhere) but that’s not gonna happen every single day with low entry limits. Either ban these guys or continue to face the consequences, assuming people aren’t just all talk and no action.

  • superstars92

    ^Circumstantial evidence suggests collusion to avoid dupes, but in a court of law, they can argue it is mathematically possible. Or they can say something like “my random optimizer spits out only even numbered entry lineups” and his spits out “odd numbered entry lineups”. And although that is “collusion” to avoid dupes, they can argue that the even/odd is just to generate randomness in their picks by themselves.

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