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  • Mphst18

    I am using the analysis of data to draw a conclusion and ask questions in the alleged scenario (the data is not alleged it is actual data). My views are not to be interpreted as fact but to allow individuals to determine if they feel they are playing a game with integrity or one that is monitoring for violations of entry limits and rules.

    Is this a form of circumventing Entry limits and or an alternate form of multi accounting (regardless of if they are actually two individuals)

    If two brothers or individuals take 50% of each others winnings and agree to risk the same amount every night (enter the same contests with the same number of entries) is this a violation guidelines/rule. Of note they may not technically be “pooling entry fees” as brother A does not send brother B any money for entry fees they just sum up or net profit at the end of the night and reconcile.

    They max enter every gpp mlb contest (for the max entries below 150 they don’t overlap entries (they may also not overlap for 150 but I am not digging through all that data as DK supposedly has a game integrity department that is supposed to be monitoring this stuff).

    Let’s look at 9/13 2016 data, the data for 9/6 shows the same as well and we can look at 9/20 data when that’s available: (my guess here it’s the same every day but just taking the Tue slates as that’s the big prize for DK)

    MLB $600K Power Hitter ($444, 45 max) – Chipolteaddict 45 entries, papagates 45 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $30K Warning Track ($150, 3 max) – Chipolteaddict 3 entries, papagates 3 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $5K Deep Mini Moonshot ($3, 50 max) – Chipolteaddict 50 entries, papagates 50 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $10K Slider ($3, 3max) – Chipolteaddict 3 entries, papagates 3 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $150K Payoff Pitch ($27, 150 max) – Chipolteaddict 150 entries, papagates 150 entries (I am not digging through 150 to determine overlap or not, other people are supposedly paid to do this)

  • Unico10

    • 482

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #74

      RG Tiered Ranking

    @superstars92 said...

    ^Circumstantial evidence suggests collusion to avoid dupes, but in a court of law, they can argue it is mathematically possible. Or they can say something like “my random optimizer spits out only even numbered entry lineups” and his spits out “odd numbered entry lineups”. And although that is “collusion” to avoid dupes, they can argue that the even/odd is just to generate randomness in their picks by themselves.

    But this is not about courts of law.

    This is about businesses that should care about the integrity of the game.

    If a casino thinks you are counting cards they don’t sue you, they make you leave.

    These guys are clearly, in plain sight, working together to circumvent limit rules. In all contests… play a satellite with a 3 mx? They have 6. Play a 20 max? They have 40…. I mean, it’s not even an argument anymore. And is not just that they double the entries, the lineups are coordinated to hedge each other.
    They do it and DK is obviously ok with that

    What I am not ok with (and nobody should) is entering a contest with a entry limit which is untrue (should read “3-entry-max for most players but 6 for some special ones”). One could argue that the false disclaimer of a max entry limit could hold up in a court of law if anyone would take the time to sue.

  • petteytheft89

    • 8

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #8

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2019 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    What exactly is the evidence? There are other players who have similar lineups to them that are pros but not related to them.

  • celtics2448

    @petteytheft89 said...

    What exactly is the evidence? There are other players who have similar lineups to them that are pros but not related to them.

    That’s not even close to the point dude, and the evidence is everywhere. This thread, other threads, other sites etc. but you can choose to ignore it if you must. You or other pros could max enter and win and I wouldn’t give a shit, I don’t like 150 max entries but those are the rules fair and square, I know this before entering and so does everybody else. The issue is the hedging 300 lineups against each other to limit the damage and increase their probability of winning whereas you, me and others have 150. The evidence is there, you just have to actually look for it instead of pleading ignorance

  • petteytheft89

    • 8

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #8

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2019 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    I’ve been a part of this whole thread so I don’t know where your anger is coming from. Two people are allowed to use the same projection system with small tweaks.

  • totoroll33

    • 25

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #25

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • x2

      2019 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    I agree with “just build better lineups,” lol. They’re not the only ones— Awesemo/ThatStunna/FallfromGrace seem to not overlap either (but similar), and they even have a blog (CrushDFS) that they share— but everyone pays their vig, and it is what it is. And hey, 150×3 is still less than the 500 that Saahil was entering, haha.

  • celtics2448

    Yeah, there’s no anger. I’ve only posted two comments here, and i addressed that in one of them. No wonder you can’t find evidence. Damn.

  • sochoice

    • 2017 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2017 FanDuel WFFC Champion

    @celtics2448 said...

    Is this serious? it’s common sense to figure out why they aren’t mentioned when they aren’t winning? No one is going to notice if they had shitty lineups because we won’t see them on the top of the leader board. Are people like me entering these GPPs once or twice at an advantage when these two clowns tank one night? Definitely. But it works the other way far more often then not.

    In another thread, these guys admitting to sharing the same projections and the same optimizer. Considering this, and the fact that there is never any overlap between these two, how can they NOT be cheating. I can’t even think of how that is even possible. Maybe one day, maybe two, but not every single fucking day. It’s just not mathematically possible without putting serious work into making sure it doesn’t happen. Considering the amount of discontent towards this situation here, and elsewhere on the internet coupled with the shrinking userbase (i stopped playing FanDuel because of this exact topic) it’s very hard to comprehend how anyone can defend these guys. They’re killing the industry.

    ChipolteAddict won the 20 entry max $4 yesterday. And that’s usually all i play, and i’m 100% content with that because in theory he should’ve only had 20 lineups (they had 40, obviously but me chances are still better there then elsewhere) but that’s not gonna happen every single day with low entry limits. Either ban these guys or continue to face the consequences, assuming people aren’t just all talk and no action.

    So you don’t check their lineups every night, but only when you notice them crushing you? Yeah that sounds just like rigorous statistical analysis to prove your point and not bitterness at all. Until people study their lineups every day and use numbers to prove their point, this type of thread is useless.

  • celtics2448

    @sochoice said...

    So you don’t check their lineups every night, but only when you notice them crushing you? Yeah that sounds just like rigorous statistical analysis to prove your point and not bitterness at all. Until people study their lineups every day and use numbers to prove their point, this type of thread is useless.

    I would think that checking their lineups every night would equate to bitterness and excessive anger but whatever you say sunshine, you’re right.

    The optics and evidence I’ve seen forced me out at fanduel, and I’m obviously not alone and I’m definitely in the majority, but keep defending these guys, it’s totally gonna work out in the long run for you

  • Nelson01

    stuff like this will be the downfall of DFS

  • bigticket

    @Nelson01 said...

    stuff like this will be the downfall of DFS

    It already is

  • Sol88

    @Nelson01 said...

    stuff like this will be the downfall of DFS

    Misguided and idiotic misinformation on two players better than you will be downfall of DFS? Weird.

    Listen, you cannot say ‘evidence is all around! Look how long this thread is!’ the thread is long because the misinformed ingoramus are self referencing their own incorrect logic with no actual evidence.

    One night of two great players having similar ownership on a good pitcher is not collusion as much as you want it to be to make yourself feel better. Maybe actually look at all 2×150 of their lineups over a week instead of spouting dangerous and hateful BS with zero actual information or evidence.

  • spades4085

  • superstars92

    • 120

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #80

      RG Tiered Ranking

    ^^As someone who is pretty impartial on this, I can say that there is plenty of circumstantial evidence of collusion. I think the main evidence is how can two people have almost the same hitter stacks/pitcher stacks never have an exact dupe of a lineup, when they both submit 150 times?

    I mean I know I have my lineups duped often in golf with other users even though I don’t ever tell other users of my lineup/use any lineup sharing site or anything like that. Yet, these 2, who use the same optimizer and have similar hitter/pitcher stacks never have an exact dupe?

    I think that’s the circumstantial evidence other posters are referring to in this forum. Of course, you must prove they’ve never had an exact dupe or this entire argument is flawed, but it seems like the other posters on here have done their research on this topic.

  • biglucky

    • x2

      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2016 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    Just amazing to me that some of the “brightest” minds in the game frequent this site and actually work for this site and can look through their data and still suggest that they do not work together. If you look at the leader boards its common place for some of the top guys to have the exact same lineups but for these brothers to rarely have a dupe lineup and claim to use the same projection system is just plain BS. The hard truth is that the only people allowed to deem that what these guys have been doing for years is against the rules happens to be the same people that are getting rich from this(DK & FD if u couldnt figure that out). So you have to ask yourself and honestly ask yourself, if you were one of the founders of DK or FD and these two guys that happen to be brothers playing on your site at a MINIMUM of $100,000 per day, while taking a 10% rake, these guys are providing profit to the site in the amount of $10,000 per day each, so at minimum $20,000 per day in RAKE or $7,300,000 per year combined, would you have a problem with them? Does anyone else need me to explain why nothing has ever been done about these two? To turn away their business(pg/ca) you would have to come to the terms that you are definitely walking away from 10 million dollars a year in profit( NFL is busy and there are more tournaments so that $100,000 a day figure as most of you know is more like there cash game play only). Not many business’ in this great country even come close to making that much money ever and we expect the people that own dk & fd to just tell these brothers’ that they don’t want their business anymore? How can DK or FD literally walk away from that much money from only two customers? They never will until they are told they have too, its always been that way. I’ve said this in the past once or twice but maybe we should be asking ourselves is with the amount of money going through DK and FD how is it that they are being trusted with the responsibilities that their games are not being compromised/cheated by unethical individuals or groups? Seems like a conflict of interest to me. Another thing to think about is that if DK and FD where to ban these guys from practices they deemed to be against site rules or TOS they are essentially telling any player that has lost money in any contest that these two where in to please ask for a refund because that would obviously be every losing players next move and do you think DK and FD are in a position to do that?

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

    • 346

      RG Overall Ranking

    • $1M Prize Winner

    • x4

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    I’m happy to announce we’ve got a perfect new feature for threads like these, the ResultsDB. We collect DraftKings CSVs for $5,000+ prize pool tournaments for the RotoGrinders Rankings. We’re now parsing those CSVs to give you easy access to the data that matters. You can dive in and take a look at how CA/PG play day in and day out.
    There will always be debate around these two, but this easy access to the data should end a lot of the misinformation I see spread here and Twitter.

    https://rotogrinders.com/contests/draftkings/mlb

    Here’s a post explaining how to use it:

    https://rotogrinders.com/threads/introducing-results-db-on-rotogrinders-1997621

    Dive in!

  • WidumBoise

    @Cal said...

    I’m happy to announce we’ve got a perfect new feature for threads like these, the ResultsDB. We collect DraftKings CSVs for the $5,000 and greater prize pool tournaments for the RotoGrinders Rankings. We’re now parsing those CSVs. You can dive in and take a look at how CA/PG play day in and day out.
    There will always be debate around these two, but this easy access to the data should end a lot of the misinformation I see spread here and Twitter.

    https://rotogrinders.com/contests/draftkings/mlb

    Here’s a post explaining how to use it:

    https://rotogrinders.com/threads/introducing-results-db-on-rotogrinders-1997621

    Dive in!

  • Roma315

    @superstars92 said...

    ^^As someone who is pretty impartial on this, I can say that there is plenty of circumstantial evidence of collusion. I think the main evidence is how can two people have almost the same hitter stacks/pitcher stacks never have an exact dupe of a lineup, when they both submit 150 times?

    I mean I know I have my lineups duped often in golf with other users even though I don’t ever tell other users of my lineup/use any lineup sharing site or anything like that. Yet, these 2, who use the same optimizer and have similar hitter/pitcher stacks never have an exact dupe?

    I think that’s the circumstantial evidence other posters are referring to in this forum. Of course, you must prove they’ve never had an exact dupe or this entire argument is flawed, but it seems like the other posters on here have done their research on this topic.

    Exactly. In golf and baseball frequently someone has the same lineup as me. I have no friends who play DFS and have no one to discuss strategy with. I don’t buy lineups or use projections. Yet these guys toss out 300 lineups with the same projection system and never have the same lineup.

  • Jazzraz

    • 160

      RG Overall Ranking

    @superstars92 said...

    ^^As someone who is pretty impartial on this, I can say that there is plenty of circumstantial evidence of collusion. I think the main evidence is how can two people have almost the same hitter stacks/pitcher stacks never have an exact dupe of a lineup, when they both submit 150 times?

    I mean I know I have my lineups duped often in golf with other users even though I don’t ever tell other users of my lineup/use any lineup sharing site or anything like that. Yet, these 2, who use the same optimizer and have similar hitter/pitcher stacks never have an exact dupe?

    I think that’s the circumstantial evidence other posters are referring to in this forum. Of course, you must prove they’ve never had an exact dupe or this entire argument is flawed, but it seems like the other posters on here have done their research on this topic.

    Its worth noting that it has been shown that CA/PG regularly have duplicate lineups within a tourney. Not saying that alone clears them of everything that people are debating and maybe people would expect them to have even more duplicates based off using the same projections , but if you are basing anything off the fact that they never have duplicate lineups that is just inaccurate.

  • jstevens2k11

    @Jazzraz said...

    Its worth noting that it has been shown that CA/PG regularly have duplicate lineups within a tourney. Not saying that alone clears them of everything that people are debating and maybe people would expect them to have even more duplicates based off using the same projections , but if you are basing anything off the fact that they never have duplicate lineups that is just inaccurate.

    Ive been reading these threads and rarely comment, but wanted to bump this question and see if anyone can comment on it with evidence. Not defending these guys at all but all the comments state “never have any dupes at all”, is that true? Are there tourneys where they have 1, maybe 2+, dupes?

  • anilprao88

    • 20

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #17

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • 2018 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    @jstevens2k11 said...

    Ive been reading these threads and rarely comment, but wanted to bump this question and see if anyone can comment on it with evidence. Not defending these guys at all but all the comments state “never have any dupes at all”, is that true? Are there tourneys where they have 1, maybe 2+, dupes?

    I’m not going to dig through the mess and find them, but there have been posts on RG showing that they have duped, which ironically makes many of the people on here accusing others of being misinformed or ignorant the ones who are actually misinformed and ignorant.

  • kb32dawgs

    @sochoice said...

    Funny how no one has anything to say about this topic on those nights where these guys win nothing. Do similar lineups not matter then?

    Its very rare that these guys aren’t at least close to the top of GPP leader boards. With them being able to cover 300 entries between the two, this makes easy to cover a stack variation of every team on the slate which they actually do every night. Its not much skill when you have exposure to every single team. If you scroll all the way to the bottom, you’ll see a ton of dead lineups from them, from stack combos that didn’t do anything. Tonight, just take a look at their lineups, each lineup will have a stack from two different teams with a variation of pitching options, then they just mix this around 300 times and a few lineups are bound to be at the top.

  • Unico10

    • 482

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #74

      RG Tiered Ranking

    TMLB $600K BRACKET MADNESS QUALIFIER #8 – 10 max entry limit – $40 entry fee

    Papagates
    Godley/CC w CWS/NYY
    Archer/Godley w CWS/TB
    Lester/Weaver w NYM/NYY
    Archer/Godley w CWS/NYM
    Archer/Weaver w CWS/ARI
    Archer/Weaver w CWS/NYM
    Archer/Godley w CWS/ARI
    Archer/Godley w CWS/CIN
    Lester/Weaver w CIN/NYY
    Archer/Godley w CWS/MIA

    Chipotle
    Lester/OGrady w NYY/CHC
    Lester/OGrady w NYY/NYM
    Flexer/Godley w NYY/CHC/NYM
    Lester/OGrady w NYY/SDP
    Godley/CC w NYY/MIA
    Lester/Steph w NYY/CIN
    Lester/Perdomo w NYY/CHC/SDP
    Flexen/Lester w NYY/TB
    Lester/Steph w NYY/ARI/NYM
    Lester/Weaver w NYY/STL

    This is as much time as I am going to spend on this. This is typical for all contests they enter.
    Same optimizer??? ROFLMAO!!
    One has all CWS and all Archer
    One has all NYY and all Lester

    Two sets of 10 made to work with each other.

    If you choose not to see it. Fine… we all have different standards. Just don’t insult people’s intelligence by arguing that there is no collusion.

    GL in your contests today.

  • superstars92

    • 120

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    • Ranked #80

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    @Unico10 said...

    If you choose not to see it. Fine… we all have different standards. Just don’t insult people’s intelligence by arguing that there is no collusion.

    ^I don’t get it. Are you arguing for or against collusion?

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

    • 346

      RG Overall Ranking

    • $1M Prize Winner

    • x4

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    In the previous two posts kb32 has claimed that they work together to stack every team while Unico claims that they work together to stack only a core of teams. At least Unico is keyed in on how they actually play – they work around a core. Sometimes they end up on the same core, like when they both had Royals the other night. Sometimes they end up on different cores, like in the example Unico shows above. Some nights their teams are wildly different. You can argue that they may still be communicating to collude and have a complex and variant system for how to do it. If you take that stance you should also be able to see that what they say is true is also plausible – they look at the same source data and draw their conclusions from there. Some nights they end up on the same core, some nights they don’t.

  • superstars92

    • 120

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #80

      RG Tiered Ranking

    @Cal said...

    Some nights they end up on the same core, some nights they don’t.

    But that’s a bit confusing though. Like in that case, it becomes almost impossible to prove collusion. Again, it definitely can exist, but if you describe in your sentence is true, then it is almost impossible to prove collusion.

    The easy way to prove collusion is they have similar cores but never the same dupe. However, if you are saying that on some nights they don’t even have the same core, then that’s a bit odd. Again, that could be a smokescreen to deter anyone from ever suspecting them, but because of that, intent is almost impossible to prove.

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