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  • Mphst18

    I am using the analysis of data to draw a conclusion and ask questions in the alleged scenario (the data is not alleged it is actual data). My views are not to be interpreted as fact but to allow individuals to determine if they feel they are playing a game with integrity or one that is monitoring for violations of entry limits and rules.

    Is this a form of circumventing Entry limits and or an alternate form of multi accounting (regardless of if they are actually two individuals)

    If two brothers or individuals take 50% of each others winnings and agree to risk the same amount every night (enter the same contests with the same number of entries) is this a violation guidelines/rule. Of note they may not technically be “pooling entry fees” as brother A does not send brother B any money for entry fees they just sum up or net profit at the end of the night and reconcile.

    They max enter every gpp mlb contest (for the max entries below 150 they don’t overlap entries (they may also not overlap for 150 but I am not digging through all that data as DK supposedly has a game integrity department that is supposed to be monitoring this stuff).

    Let’s look at 9/13 2016 data, the data for 9/6 shows the same as well and we can look at 9/20 data when that’s available: (my guess here it’s the same every day but just taking the Tue slates as that’s the big prize for DK)

    MLB $600K Power Hitter ($444, 45 max) – Chipolteaddict 45 entries, papagates 45 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $30K Warning Track ($150, 3 max) – Chipolteaddict 3 entries, papagates 3 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $5K Deep Mini Moonshot ($3, 50 max) – Chipolteaddict 50 entries, papagates 50 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $10K Slider ($3, 3max) – Chipolteaddict 3 entries, papagates 3 entries no lineup overlap

    MLB $150K Payoff Pitch ($27, 150 max) – Chipolteaddict 150 entries, papagates 150 entries (I am not digging through 150 to determine overlap or not, other people are supposedly paid to do this)

  • Mphst18

    @fishcakeking said...

    You need to go to the regulators or the press. DK or RG are not the answer. The question here isnt about any specifc people, but the actual process the sites would use for uncovering and enforcing rules. IMO

    FCK

    Somewhat agree but also when people send the issues to DK even if they refuse to provide any answers or more clarity it rescinds their ability to claim they were unaware.

    So when someone of importance whom could spur change or influence them to make changes for state legality asks them I see X amount of people emailed you concerns around a issue that would protect consumers or allegations of game integrity being gamed and your response was?

  • Chuky

    For Christ sake dude this is all you do? There is no way you can be a fantasy player with this much time on your hands. We are in regulation mode now so all these things you are bringing up, please let the auditors/regulators do their job. Just play DFS and enjoy it man damn. It’s simple math that players with whether 150 or 300 entries will have an advantage over you with your 5-10 lineups. I play more single entries and build from there. I stay in my lane until me bankroll increase then I attack these tournaments. You sound like someone who is constantly investigated DFS and its problems.

  • Mphst18

    @Chuky said...

    There is no way you can be a fantasy player with this much time on your hands. We are in regulation mode now so all these things you are bringing up, please let the auditors/regulators do their job. Just play DFS and enjoy it man damn. It’s simple math that players with whether 150 or 300 entries will have an advantage over you with your 5-10 lineups.

    You can do your own research to disprove “There is no way you can be a fantasy player “ and “over you with your 5-10 lineups” this and then compare and contrast, it wont take you more than a min, but it is immaterial. In fact you could just even read one thread on here where a user identifies my volume.

  • cutter2225

    @Chuky said...

    You sound like someone who is constantly investigated DFS and its problems.

    IMO If DFS was investigated properly by agencies with actual authority it’d be shutdown quicker then poker was. Like poker or anything else with millions of dollars up for grabs, corruption is bound to be rampant.

  • crazypaul

    I believe Mphst18 does bring up several good points in his posts, however I also see the other side as well. The likelihood that 2 random people in this country, both playing 50 entries in a tournament, will not have a lineup overlap is huge.

    Please excuse my math if I am wrong, but for NFL, if you take the 9 positions you have to fill on DK, and simply multiply that by 32 NFL teams, you get a minimum of 288 players to choose from to fill your lineup. That would mean there are AT MINIMUM 207,609,824 different lineup combination possibilities.

    I do realize this number would become exponentially smaller if 2 people agreed on the same base of 4 or 5 players, however the number would still be very very high. This alone makes it almost impossible for any site to prove players are working together to circumvent entry limits. For cash games, the players could just say “we research together and share ideas. Based on our shared research, we usually come to the same conclusion for an optimal cash lineup” which is not against DK’s rules. For tournaments, it is almost impossible to prove for the reasons stated above unless 2 people actually came forward and admitted it.

    Two brothers, landing on the same cash lineups, and never overlapping in tournaments “optically” seems fishy. However if you related that same scenario to two strangers, who were given access to the same research and had equal time to study it, you would never question it.

  • Mphst18

    @crazypaul said...

    Two brothers, landing on the same cash lineups, and never overlapping in tournaments “optically” seems fishy. However if you related that same scenario to two strangers, who were given access to the same research and had equal time to study it, you would never question it.

    I think I also put weight/leverage on the history of the individuals (not just these 2), things they have said and other things they have been alleged of doing into forming my opinions along with analyzing the data but don’t disagree with what you have said.

  • stevietpfl

    Morning Grind co-host, Lead NASCAR Analyst

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    @Mphst18 said...

    20 min 40 second mark. My brother is kinda my partner in all this.

    2 hour and 15 min mark to 2 hour and 22 mark with both brothers lots of we and us language as well as

    we also have a lineup in 30th

    we should have switched to the lions d.

    To be transparent they also state the same unconvincing claim referenced above in pg post.

    https://playbook.draftkings.com/nfl/the-sweat-show-week-4/

    The statistical probability of having the same cash lineup night in and night out but not duplicating lineups amongst your partner while max entering gpp tournaments with max entries below 150 is off the charts.

    My issue is you’re using a video from a year ago, and you completely ignored a well thought out response from him.

  • Mphst18

    @stevietpfl said...

    My issue is you’re using a video from a year ago, and you completely ignored a well thought out response from him.

    I didn’t ignore it I read it processed it and compared it to data and other responses they have given whether it be via social media or videos. ,

    Do you think any of these guys are going to come on here and say YEP we sure did do it.

    I am not sure how the timing of when someone says something is relevant but I think if my friend (who I don’t have any share of his account or share lineups with or enter unique lineups with to have more than the allowed individual lineups) was in contention to win I would say I hope HE wins, HE also has a lineup in 30th, that play was good for HIM, HE should have switched to the Lions D

  • Mphst18

    @crazypaul said...

    I do realize this number would become exponentially smaller if 2 people agreed on the same base of 4 or 5 players, however the number would still be very very high

    if 2 people agreed on the same base of 4 or 5 players:

    Does the number change if it is repeated night after night or is each slate considered an independent scenario so mathematically it wouldn’t change?

    What if the data showed for a small slate (say 3 game) with max entry of 10 or so and still no gpp overlap, does that change the number?

  • bluestooges

    Stupid question maybe,

    How would you ever prevent family members from talking and sharing info about lineups when entering a contest? Is there any examples of family members that don’t talk/share info? IMO if family members say they don’t discuss and make sure they are not entering the same lineup then I believe their statement to be untrue. On the other hand I don’t know if I see an issue with it. Its life some people have family some don’t.

  • mccoolio

    @bluestooges said...

    Stupid question maybe,

    How would you ever prevent family members from talking and sharing info about lineups when entering a contest? Is there any examples of family members that don’t talk/share info? IMO if family members say they don’t discuss and make sure they are not entering the same lineup then I believe their statement to be untrue. On the other hand I don’t know if I see an issue with it. Its life some people have family some don’t.

    Lets be real here. There really is nothing that can be done. Everything is hearsay between DK and the brothers if they were ever approached about this. Its not like DK can subpoena them and look into their computers and email accounts for collusion evidence. This is just slightly circumventing rules that aren’t regulated. Good for them. If anyone else wants to do this, it is not hard. You just need a penpal you trust and you can do the same thing and there is no way it can be tracked.

    And lets be honest, DK is awful about enforcing anything.

  • Zieg30

    @bluestooges said...

    Stupid question maybe,

    How would you ever prevent family members from talking and sharing info about lineups when entering a contest? Is there any examples of family members that don’t talk/share info? IMO if family members say they don’t discuss and make sure they are not entering the same lineup then I believe their statement to be untrue. On the other hand I don’t know if I see an issue with it. Its life some people have family some don’t.

    Just to clarify so we don’t lose track of the issue being discussed – it doesn’t matter if they talk or share info. They can even build their lineups together. The issue is if they split profits or combine their entries such that they are circumventing entry limits and violating site policies that everyone has to abide by.

  • crazypaul

    @Zieg30 said...

    Just to clarify so we don’t lose track of the issue being discussed – it doesn’t matter if they talk or share info. They can even build their lineups together. The issue is if they split profits or combine their entries such that they are circumventing entry limits and violating site policies that everyone has to abide by.

    Exactly. However it is almost impossible for a site to prove 2 people share a bankroll unless they are dumb enough to use the same CC or Paypal account to deposit/withdraw. Thats why I said, I understand the issue and how it appears, but you could never prove any of this without them coming out and admitting it.

  • bluestooges

    @Zieg30 said...

    Just to clarify so we don’t lose track of the issue being discussed – it doesn’t matter if they talk or share info. They can even build their lineups together. The issue is if they split profits or combine their entries such that they are circumventing entry limits and violating site policies that everyone has to abide by.

    I here you, but is it circumventing a rule a perceived interpretation of the rule. I get it people think some people are working together to double enter more lineups than the rest of us can. The thing is if you are aloud to share info and you are aloud to share profits then IMO its not breaking any rules. If you shared info with me and I know that we are going to share in the winnings then there would be no reason for me to enter the same lineup as you. Maybe there should be a rule but it seams to me people are playing by the rules, its just the rules where not written up properly to prevent this.

  • btwice80

    @Mphst18 said...

    The statistical probability of having the same cash lineup night in and night out but not duplicating lineups amongst your partner while max entering gpp tournaments with max entries below 150 is off the charts.

    Ah, so now you’ve subtly altered the accusation to them coordinating their entries in GPPs… *except when the entry max is 150. I admit I always assumed they coordinated their entries, but if they did have duplicates, that’s the proof that they don’t. He said that they often have big disagreements on tournament strategy (like most any two players would), and I know I’ve noticed they are sometimes focused on completely different teams from each other, so suddenly it’s not so unlikely that they aren’t coordinating. Cash games and GPPs are two entirely different animals, so the fact that they run the same cash lineup is irrelevant to how they play GPPs and the statistical improbability you meant (you left off the ‘im’) is not off the charts.

  • bluestooges

    Some airlines charge for checking your bags but the same airlines don’t charge for gate checked bags.

    passenger 1: checks two bags at check in and pays for them
    passenger 2: brings 5 carry on size bags to the gate, they gate check them and he pays nothing.
    Sometimes it looks like someone is breaking the rules but in reality they just played by the rules that where in place.

  • zshoom

    • 2016 Single Entry Series Finalist

    @bluestooges said...

    Some airlines charge for checking your bags but the same airlines don’t charge for gate checked bags.

    passenger 1: checks two bags at check in and pays for them
    passenger 2: brings 5 carry on size bags to the gate, they gate check them and he pays nothing.
    Sometimes it looks like someone is breaking the rules but in reality they just played by the rules that where in place.

    And then someone who carried on one bag but can’t fit it in the overhead compartment because a bunch of people have brought 5 bags a piece onto the plane calls out this ridiculous lack of regulation by the airline.

  • bluestooges

    @zshoom said...

    And then someone who carried on one bag but can’t fit it in the overhead compartment because a bunch of people have brought 5 bags a piece onto the plane calls out this ridiculous lack of regulation by the airline.

    gate checking is when they don’t allow you to put your bags in the overhead so they tag them to go bellow the wing with all the other bags.

  • zshoom

    • 2016 Single Entry Series Finalist

    @bluestooges said...

    gate checking is when they don’t allow you to put your bags in the overhead so they tag them to go bellow the wing with all the other bags.

    My mistake.

    Does any airline actually allow you to gate check 5 bags though?

  • bluestooges

    @zshoom said...

    My mistake.

    Does any airline actually allow you to gate check 5 bags though?

    Air Canada does and I am pretty sure most do. You get to the gate and they say” no way you can bring all of that on” and they tag them there to go bellow. Is it a dick move to do this yeah but people do it all the time. The rules where written in a way that allows it. Thats what I think is happening with the entry limits. Most are playing by the intention of the rule and others playing by the actual wording of the rules.

  • Mphst18

    @btwice80 said...

    subtly altered the accusation to them coordinating their entries in GPPs… *except when the entry max is 150

    check the original post I have never changed from I am not looking through 150 entries so I don’t know if they have overlap in them or not.

  • zshoom

    • 2016 Single Entry Series Finalist

    @bluestooges said...

    Air Canada does and I am pretty sure most do. You get to the gate and they say” no way you can bring all of that on” and they tag them there to go bellow. Is it a dick move to do this yeah but people do it all the time. The rules where written in a way that allows it. Thats what I think is happening with the entry limits. Most are playing by the intention of the rule and others playing by the actual wording of the rules.

    “Most are playing by the intention of the rule and others playing by the actual wording of the rules.”

    Definitely agree with that. Now that I’m more well versed in the finer points of airline bag checking – your original analogy is pretty solid.

    The problem is, while the airline could easily start charging for extra gate checked bags, I don’t see a way for the DFS sites to stop the (alleged) ‘legal’ collusion brought up in this post without significantly altering the games offered. The players listed in the post may or may not be doing this…but others certainly are, and if more people start following suit, DFS is screwed. Using the airline analogy – if everyone on board gate checks extra bags, the plane will not be able to take off.

  • dubchr7

    • Blogger of the Month

    why has neither one of these players (Chipolteaddict or papagates) chimed in on Mphst18 calling them out? If it was me being accused of something like this i’d b FIGHTING MAD!!! Their silence says A LOT

  • ocdobv

    @dubchr7 said...

    why has neither one of these players (Chipolteaddict or papagates) chimed in on Mphst18 calling them out? If it was me being accused of something like this i’d b FIGHTING MAD!!! Their silence says A LOT

    Read better. PG replied.

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    @dubchr7 said...

    why has neither one of these players (Chipolteaddict or papagates) chimed in on Mphst18 calling them out? If it was me being accused of something like this i’d b FIGHTING MAD!!! Their silence says A LOT

    https://rotogrinders.com/threads/more-entry-limits-being-circumvented-1440337?page=4#reply-1441468

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