# INDUSTRY FORUM

• ehafner

• 69

• Ranked #54

• ### \$1M Prize Winner

It’s my view that DFS is NOT gambling, but I know several people feel otherwise, so I figure I’d state my case publicly and see if/where I’m wrong.

To be considered gambling, DFS would require three elements be present: consideration, chance, and prize.

The crux of my argument is that there is no “chance” in DFS, only variance. Chance means that luck is factored into your outcome. While luck is absolutely a factor to winning in a small sample size, all of that luck evens out and negates itself in the long run. When you look at DFS in its proper context (play DFS infinity times w/ infinity people) your return = your edge in the game. Therefore, no chance is involved. Therefore, DFS is not gambling.

• sethayates

@ehafner said...

It’s my view that DFS is NOT gambling, but I know several people feel otherwise, so I figure I’d state my case publicly and see if/where I’m wrong.

To be considered gambling, DFS would require three elements be present: consideration, chance, and prize.

The crux of my argument is that there is no “chance” in DFS, only variance. Chance means that luck is factored into your outcome. While luck is absolutely a factor to winning in a small sample size, all of that luck evens out and negates itself in the long run. When you look at DFS in its proper context (play DFS infinity times w/ infinity people) your return = your edge in the game. Therefore, no chance is involved. Therefore, DFS is not gambling.

I have to disagree with your argument here. The truth is that DFS actually includes more chance than casino games which you surely think are gambling.

Work with me here. There are 38 spaces on a Roulette Wheel. 1-36, 0, and 00. Half of 1-36 are Red and the other are Black. 0 and 00 do not count as Red or Black (the House Edge). Using your same argument, if I place my money on Red every single time, over the long run I will win 47.4% of the time. That is my “edge” in the game. I’m going to lose eventually, but I can definitely remove “chance” as you call it, by just playing the exact same thing every time until I lose.

• deactivated84892

I don’t see why Game of Skill and Gambling can’t be intertwined. I absolutely think it meets the basic definition of gambling but that doesn’t mean it should be illegal.

• britdevine

• ### 2014 StarStreet MLB Playboy Mansion Finalist

Skill Gambling just like poker, you are not playing the house, you are playing other people betting real dollars that you are better than them making a lineup that will score more points than them.

Gambling is playing the lottery, pulling an arm on a slot machine against the house, or betting against a house line..which is totally different that skill gaming

• ehafner

• 69

• Ranked #51

• ### \$1M Prize Winner

Roulette is a 47.4% expectation for everyone who plays it no matter what method you play it in. DFS has varying degrees of expectation based solely on your skill level.

• Bigo1

• 957

### RG Overall Ranking

Wow, there are still people out there who believe DFS is not gambling. Oh well.

• deactivated84892

@ehafner said...

Roulette is a 47.4% expectation for everyone who plays it no matter what method you play it in. DFS has varying degrees of expectation based solely on your skill level.

I once beat Quad Aces with a Royal Flush.

I don’t think the guy expected it when shipped his stack. I don’t think he lost all that money because he had no skill, It was a gamble.

• txdave41

I see DFS as mostly skill with a gambling luck factor. If it was complete gambling then the sport would be everyone betting on the same teams and players and winning if they win.

DFS is different because it’s not just picking the right players that will hit, it’s putting them together like puzzle pieces. You have to figure out the right configuration of puzzle piece players that together will give you a combined high score.

• iSplashRollz

@britdevine said...

Skill Gambling just like poker, you are not playing the house, you are playing other people betting real dollars that you are better than them making a lineup that will score more points than them.

Gambling is playing the lottery, pulling an arm on a slot machine against the house, or betting against a house line..which is totally different that skill gaming

^

• Jcb890

Sorry, but if poker is gambling and not a game of skill, multi-entry large GPP’s could easily be seen as gambling because there is a huge impact of “chance” in those contests and they way they are played.

I’m still pro-DFS and do not think it should be made illegal though.

• yort05

Gambling- the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as “the stakes”) on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.

You be the judge…

I like the way Jason Robbins presented it though..

If you were to randomly bet the spread in a sports event you would be close to 50/50
If you were to randomly construct a lineup with no effort or research and play against someone that has put in effort and research you would lose close to 90% of the time.

Sounds like both to me

• ehafner

• 69

• Ranked #51

• ### \$1M Prize Winner

I think you guys are looking at it too narrow. DFS GPPs have VERY high variance, so it makes it appear that there’s luck involved in DFS. But if you play DFS GPPs many many times over all that luck evens out, and all that is left is your edge in the game.

• DavidK44

@ehafner said...

It’s my view that DFS is NOT gambling, but I know several people feel otherwise, so I figure I’d state my case publicly and see if/where I’m wrong.

To be considered gambling, DFS would require three elements be present: consideration, chance, and prize.

The crux of my argument is that there is no “chance” in DFS, only variance. Chance means that luck is factored into your outcome. While luck is absolutely a factor to winning in a small sample size, all of that luck evens out and negates itself in the long run. When you look at DFS in its proper context (play DFS infinity times w/ infinity people) your return = your edge in the game. Therefore, no chance is involved. Therefore, DFS is not gambling.

For the record, I agree with you that in the long run, variance evens out and thus chance is greatly reduced.

But there’s no such thing as someone who plays an infinite number of times. That’s a theoretical concept. No matter how many games you play, there is inherent variance in each of them and you never “hit” infinity. Borrowing from poker, some of their statistical analysis software has an “All-In EV” which shows how above or below expected value you are running in spots where all the money/betting is over; no matter how small this number becomes in the long-run, it’s still going to be something greater or less than 0.00%.

So even if you only view it from the “long run” perspective, you’ll still never entirely remove chance.

Just as important, I don’t think many take your position that just because variance evens out in the long-term that therefore “chance” does not exist. We agree there’s tremendous luck in any one DFS contest. This means that a person choosing whether or not to pariticpate in a DFS contest will know that chance will play a big part in his results of that contest. That he should know that if he plays in an infinite number of DFS games, chance will not have an affect is irrelelvant to whether or not chance plays a part in the very contest he is currently considering.

Finally, in the long run, we’re all dead.

• takeit_ez

I view DFS kind of like horse racings cousin, you get a program sheet of past performances and information about the horse in a race. Usually 8-9 horses in a race. Now pick the winner or the best performer. Same thing like DFS, instead of 8-9 horses its out of a pool of 500 or so. Horse betting is considered a skill game, correct? So why shouldnt DFS be in the same category..

• einars

@ehafner said...

I think you guys are looking at it too narrow. DFS GPPs have VERY high variance, so it makes it appear that there’s luck involved in DFS. But if you play DFS GPPs many many times over all that luck evens out, and all that is left is your edge in the game.

and i mean lets be honest…..ehafner would know

• ### 2013 DraftStreet DSBBC Finalist

@ehafner said...

It’s my view that DFS is NOT gambling, but I know several people feel otherwise, so I figure I’d state my case publicly and see if/where I’m wrong.

To be considered gambling, DFS would require three elements be present: consideration, chance, and prize.

The crux of my argument is that there is no “chance” in DFS, only variance. Chance means that luck is factored into your outcome. While luck is absolutely a factor to winning in a small sample size, all of that luck evens out and negates itself in the long run. When you look at DFS in its proper context (play DFS infinity times w/ infinity people) your return = your edge in the game. Therefore, no chance is involved. Therefore, DFS is not gambling.

This is a rather sensitive topic for me. I’ve been playing dfs for about 4 years now. I never feel like I’m gambling because I feel like I have a sustainable edge. As you’ve referenced, I’m also of the mind that given enough of a sample size, I’m not taking a ‘chance.’ However, that’s just my own personal interpretation and given that there’s a term for that(advantage gambling), it’s still technically gambling.

• deactivated84892

@takeit_ez said...

I view DFS kind of like horse racings cousin, you get a program sheet of past performances and information about the horse in a race. Usually 8-9 horses in a race. Now pick the winner or the best performer. Same thing like DFS, instead of 8-9 horses its out of a pool of 500 or so. Horse betting is considered a skill game, correct? So why shouldnt DFS be in the same category..

Does Seabiscuit perform better on the road, during the day time on turf?

• BobGrinder

Yes it’s a game of skill, yes it’s still gambling when wagers are involved. You’re gambling on a game of skill, the two are not mutually exclusive. Why is this so hard for people to grasp?

• habes1289

It’s definitely gambling in the sense that you are betting your own money for a certain return, but once you place that bet and choose your options, the result is out of your hands. It’s pretty much the definition of gambling.

But it also requires a lot of skill, patience, and discipline. It’s not even in the same stratosphere as a lottery ticket or many casino table games.

Ultimately if you don’t know what you are doing, you won’t win with any frequency. And that’s why it’s a game of skill as well.

• Nookx

Everything in life is gambling. All decisions in life are a gamble. The only outcomes that are certain are those that apply to the laws of physics. By driving to the store you are gambling that the risk your enduring by driving to get food is > the chances of you being hurt or killed in a crash. Everything is gambling but that doesn’t make it bad. Above everything, every individual should have the right to choose what they want to do with there time and money as long as it doesn’t hurt others DIRECTLY.

• crazypaul

I gamble every time I eat a Big Mac that I wont have a heart attack & die due to increased cholesterol. I gamble with my 401K in the stock market that I dont lose my retirement. I gamble walking across the street every day to check my mailbox that I dont get hit by a truck.

Most things in life to me are a gamble. So yes, I believe DFS is gambling, however I think that the more skill you have, the less chance becomes a factor.

• Dmurphy104

• ### Blogger of the Month

gambling

noun
1.
the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes.

The crux of the question is whether it is a game of chance.

No, a random lineup (even a random one that uses the full budget) would lose the vast majority of the time. Prove that, and you prove that DFS is a game of skill. You have to have some skill to create a lineup better than a randomly generated one. And who here would not attack a 50/50 or H2H game if you knew the lineup(s) were random?

• beastmode11

• ### 2015 FanDuel MLB Playboy Mansion Finalist

To me anyone who considers playing dfs the same as playing roulette is quite frankly a very poor dfs player. You can sit here all you want and claim that the only reason the high volume players win the majority of money in dfs is bc they play high volume. My argument would be that high volume players can play high volume is bc they win. If the vast majority of dfs players tried to play at a high volume rate they would lose their ass. There is so much more to DFS than just randomly throwing lu’s in a tournament. At the end of the day I could go get a small business loan and risk my entire financial life to open a business. My success or lack of in such an endeavor would not be guaranteed either way, it would be by some peoples definition a “gamble”, while others may call it an “investment”. To me DFS is an investment.

• Priptonite

• ### Blogger of the Month

@ehafner said...

While luck is absolutely a factor to winning in a small sample size, all of that luck evens out and negates itself in the long run.

How many DFS players do you think reach “the long run?”

A highly skilled NFL GPP player could literally go decades as a losing player if they only entered a couple lineups every weekend.

• Dmurphy104

• ### Blogger of the Month

@Priptonite said...

How many DFS players do you think reach “the long run?”

A highly skilled NFL GPP player could literally go decades as a losing player if they only entered a couple lineups ever weekend.

None of us will hit the ‘long run’ if things don’t turn around.

• depalma13

@gundacker said...

Does Seabiscuit perform better on the road, during the day time on turf?

You give me any horse with previous dirt form that ran long on the turf last out and is shortening up on the dirt in it’s next start and I will drop a grand on his or her nose.

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