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  • ehafner

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    It’s my view that DFS is NOT gambling, but I know several people feel otherwise, so I figure I’d state my case publicly and see if/where I’m wrong.

    To be considered gambling, DFS would require three elements be present: consideration, chance, and prize.

    The crux of my argument is that there is no “chance” in DFS, only variance. Chance means that luck is factored into your outcome. While luck is absolutely a factor to winning in a small sample size, all of that luck evens out and negates itself in the long run. When you look at DFS in its proper context (play DFS infinity times w/ infinity people) your return = your edge in the game. Therefore, no chance is involved. Therefore, DFS is not gambling.

  • guey10

    Let’s just make every single tournament one line, let’s see who really has the skill and let a computer pick out a player pool for them and throw in 150+ lines into tourneys

  • robroy

    casino games are gambling because there is only one right way to play a situation, it seems to me that any novice can learn the proper plays rather quickly…you’ll still lose in the long run unless you don’t get caught by the casinos counting cards or something like that. In my opinion sports wagering and DFS are not gambling any more than playing the stock market is gambling.

  • pabloplyr

    I am a huge dfs fan and love poker. I think its gambling in that its more like the lottery and roulette but some players with bankroll can play multiple entries into the lottery and its like some players can put there money on black red first third last third odd and even in roulette. The problem woth dfs is majority of players can afford to choose one of the options playing roulette red or black or odd or even and second guess themselves when they lose much like we do in dfs. The minority with the bankroll can afford to put their money on all the options and bank on one or two winning them money covering all the bases. Dfs is chance. And there is a prize that we are hoping to win. Much like the lottery. I choose 6 numbers and or players and hope that mine are called or play well enough for me to win. There is a chance that LeBron will out score the other SF. There is a chance that LeBron misses the game. There is luck involved especially when you need a specific outcome in order to win. Let’s not be blind sheep. I’m glad dfs is under scrutiny because we have needed regulation for years.

  • KRD227

    The above post is way off imo. You put a player who has never watched a game or done no research against a player who does both and the player who does both will win most of the time plain and simple. If what you said was true it would be 50/50…which it clearly isn’t. For example if I played my wife in NBA dfs every day for a month I’d win at least 25-30 times (probably closer to 30 lol). If we are at a roulette table it’s closer to a 50/50 proposition.

  • knownkiller

    @julieduke33 said...

    The difference between sports gambling and DFS is that the spread or money line is designed to make the bet virtually a 50/50 wager..yes their is some skill in it but that edge is mostly taken away cuz it’s built into the spread..simplest way for me to describe it is a person with zero knowledge of football can bet New England -7.5 vs giants today and have about a 50% chance of winning…same person person with zero knowledge of football puts in a FD lineup and simply plays a H2h has almost zero chance of winning..

    The skill in sports wagering is figuring out when Vegas has set a bad line and taking advantage of it…

    Of all the statements in this thread, This is the one that will impact DFS the most.
    Noodle

  • CrazyGabey

    Daily fantasy is absolutely gambling, and I’m not sure how anyone can claim otherwise while remaining intellectually honest. There is more skill involved in daily fantasy than in sportsbetting, but whether or not something is gambling has nothing to do with that. Poker is gambling, and slot machines are also gambling. No one is suggesting anyone could become a professional slot machine player, but plenty of people play poker professionally.

    Arguing that daily fantasy is not gambling is one of the reasons we are in this current situation as an industry. Nearly everyone in a position of authority stuck their heads in the sand and repeated “daily fantasy is not gambling” ad nauseam. Perhaps if time had been taken to influence the conversation about why daily fantasy sports should be a legal form of gambling (just like season-long fantasy sports) the industry wouldn’t be staring down the barrel of a loaded gun.

    Instead the strategy has been openly defying lawmakers while brazenly drawing unfathomable amounts of attention to the industry. All this while clinging to an antiquated interpretation of a law that was never created to protect daily fantasy in the first place.

  • yoteach

    • Blogger of the Month

    Oh, King Gabey hath decried!

    You know full well why many have continued the argument over DFS as a game of skill, so don’t act like you have some intellectual high ground here. If we didn’t live in a country and individual states with hypocritical and varying laws, we naturally would not be forced into what many of us think is a seemingly ridiculous debate over whether it is gambling or not. But, we do, and since sports gambling is not legal across the country, we must debate the amount of skill involved and reflect on the separation between games of chance versus games of skill.

    I fail to see how this continued crusade of yours (and others) against the mistakes that the sites have made in the past does any continued good in moving forward. That last paragraph of yours is so incredibly behind the times that maybe you should turn the mirror on yourself to see what you look like in clinging to that tired banter. Many of us have chosen to work with the sites and with grassroots organizations to try and effect positive change. Here in California, I sat alongside one of the biggest players in the industry in Cory Albertson, he representing the pros, and me representing the casual player and testified to our state assembly regarding our game. I also testified alongside reps from the sites, including a former attorney general hired as counsel for the sites (as well as reps from six major professional sports franchises here in CA). How the Hell is that “openly defying lawmakers” when just this week we’ve heard positive news about the prospects of a DFS bill passing?

    Keep in mind you utilized present perfect tense also, so no, you were not referring to the strategy of a year ago. You framed it as here and now, and no, that is not the strategy. Where law enforcement officials have wielded heavy hands, like New York, they’ve most definitely chosen to fight while at the same time working openly with lawmakers to enact commonsense regulation.

    I just don’t see the point of moaning about what happened or where the industry/sites went wrong. I prefer instead to engage in our democratic system, joining together rather than tearing apart, and ultimately trying our best to insure that DFS players are not only presented in a decent light but also gain all important consumer protection measures that will help the game grow and be profitable in a long term sustainable manner. I think we both want the same thing, but I’m not sure why you keep ringing that tired old battle cry.

  • CrazyGabey

    @yoteach said...

    Oh, King Gabey hath decried!

    You know full well why many have continued the argument over DFS as a game of skill, so don’t act like you have some intellectual high ground here. If we didn’t live in a country and individual states with hypocritical and varying laws, we naturally would not be forced into what many of us think is a seemingly ridiculous debate over whether it is gambling or not. But, we do, and since sports gambling is not legal across the country, we must debate the amount of skill involved and reflect on the separation between games of chance versus games of skill.

    I fail to see how this continued crusade of yours (and others) against the mistakes that the sites have made in the past does any continued good in moving forward. That last paragraph of yours is so incredibly behind the times that maybe you should turn the mirror on yourself to see what you look like in clinging to that tired banter. Many of us have chosen to work with the sites and with grassroots organizations to try and effect positive change. Here in California, I sat alongside one of the biggest players in the industry in Cory Albertson, he representing the pros, and me representing the casual player and testified to our state assembly regarding our game. I also testified alongside reps from the sites, including a former attorney general hired as counsel for the sites (as well as reps from six major professional sports franchises here in CA). How the Hell is that “openly defying lawmakers” when just this week we’ve heard positive news about the prospects of a DFS bill passing?

    Keep in mind you utilized present perfect tense also, so no, you were not referring to the strategy of a year ago. You framed it as here and now, and no, that is not the strategy. Where law enforcement officials have wielded heavy hands, like New York, they’ve most definitely chosen to fight while at the same time working openly with lawmakers to enact commonsense regulation.

    I just don’t see the point of moaning about what happened or where the industry/sites went wrong. I prefer instead to engage in our democratic system, joining together rather than tearing apart, and ultimately trying our best to insure that DFS players are not only presented in a decent light but also gain all important consumer protection measures that will help the game grow and be profitable in a long term sustainable manner. I think we both want the same thing, but I’m not sure why you keep ringing that tired old battle cry.

    +1

    I prefer to think of myself as hiding at the top of the moral grassy knoll.

  • yoteach

    • Blogger of the Month

    Fair enough. Thanks for burning that visual in my mind!

    As an update: The California Assembly bill, AB 1437, will be presented and voted on by the entire Assembly today at 11 am. You can watch it on the link below…click “Assembly Floor Session”.

    http://www.calchannel.com/live-webcast/

  • Ryazan

    • x3

      2015 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

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    @CrazyGabey said...

    Daily fantasy is absolutely gambling, and I’m not sure how anyone can claim otherwise while remaining intellectually honest. There is more skill involved in daily fantasy than in sportsbetting, but whether or not something is gambling has nothing to do with that. Poker is gambling, and slot machines are also gambling. No one is suggesting anyone could become a professional slot machine player, but plenty of people play poker professionally.

    Arguing that daily fantasy is not gambling is one of the reasons we are in this current situation as an industry. Nearly everyone in a position of authority stuck their heads in the sand and repeated “daily fantasy is not gambling” ad nauseam. Perhaps if time had been taken to influence the conversation about why daily fantasy sports should be a legal form of gambling (just like season-long fantasy sports) the industry wouldn’t be staring down the barrel of a loaded gun.

    Instead the strategy has been openly defying lawmakers while brazenly drawing unfathomable amounts of attention to the industry. All this while clinging to an antiquated interpretation of a law that was never created to protect daily fantasy in the first place.

    here’s the problem:

    you, as someone who has played DFS only for low stakes, would think its gambling. Because you don’t have the experience of grinding out, day in and day out, higher stakes contests where luck plays little role and it’s all about skill.

    You were on the podcast for a long time here at RG and this gave you a big head, so you think that everything you say is fact. Dude, you know NOTHING. You’re wrong. Play some real contests, win some real contests, and then come back and give your opinions.

  • danliebl

    @yoteach said...

    Fair enough. Thanks for burning that visual in my mind!

    As an update: The California Assembly bill, AB 1437, will be presented and voted on by the entire Assembly today at 11 am. You can watch it on the link below…click “Assembly Floor Session”.

    http://www.calchannel.com/live-webcast/

    at work, cant watch it, but please give an update when voted on!

  • butkusaafl

    Ryazan’s thread about playing heads up with Max is a great example of why DFS is gambling. Not knocking Mr Ryazan by any means. Respect for his skill and the skill of everyone who makes a living in this industry. Reading that thread and seeing how Ryazan had a plan, throws the plan out the window and goes back on the next night, then the next night, then the next. I can’t help but to see the casino player doing the exact same thing. Win or lose to his fish, he has the same impulses of a gambler.

  • meerkatmreow

    @butkusaafl said...

    Ryazan’s thread about playing heads up with Max is a great example of why DFS is gambling. Not knocking Mr Ryazan by any means. Respect for his skill and the skill of everyone who makes a living in this industry. Reading that thread and seeing how Ryazan had a plan, throws the plan out the window and goes back on the next night, then the next night, then the next. I can’t help but to see the casino player doing the exact same thing. Win or lose to his fish, he has the same impulses of a gambler.

    But be believes in himself so it can’t be gambling.

    Gambling isn’t binary, it exists on a spectrum between completely dumb chance to 100% skill. It’s more a question of where on the spectrum dfs falls and at what point do people need the government to save them from themselves

  • Shipmymoney

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    @butkusaafl said...

    Ryazan’s thread about playing heads up with Max is a great example of why DFS is gambling. Not knocking Mr Ryazan by any means. Respect for his skill and the skill of everyone who makes a living in this industry. Reading that thread and seeing how Ryazan had a plan, throws the plan out the window and goes back on the next night, then the next night, then the next. I can’t help but to see the casino player doing the exact same thing. Win or lose to his fish, he has the same impulses of a gambler.

    So because Ryazan thinks it is a good idea to seek out Maxdalury at nosebleed H2H, dfs is the equivalent of casino games? Not following your logic. Not to mention, assuming Ryazan has the bankroll to play Max whenever he wants without going bust, if he actually does have an edge, he will profit over time. Different than casino games where a player has no edge and will not profit over time.

  • butkusaafl

    My point of comparing him to the casino player had no relation to the size of bank roll, profitability of his endeavors, or having an edge, superior system or anything like that. It was more to point to his mindset and addictive behavior. That epic thread can be made into a movie. Have Mark Wahlberg play the lead. The gambler can’t go on vacation without feeling he’s missing out on all the money he should be earning from gambling on dfs. All great gamblers have an edge and profit over time. Doesn’t make it any less of a gamble. Gambling can lead to profits. Wall Street. DFS. Day trading. Gambling ought to be legalized in all 50 states. But Native Indians won’t allow it. Gambling gets a bad rap. It’s not a bad word.

  • stoptheinsanity

    @butkusaafl said...

    My point of comparing him to the casino player had no relation to the size of bank roll, profitability of his endeavors, or having an edge, superior system or anything like that. It was more to point to his mindset and addictive behavior. That epic thread can be made into a movie. Have Mark Wahlberg play the lead. The gambler can’t go on vacation without feeling he’s missing out on all the money he should be earning from gambling on dfs. All great gambler’s have an edge and profit over time. Doesn’t make it any less of a gamble. Gambling can lead to profits. Wall Street. DFS. Day trading. Gambling ought to be legalized in all 50 states. But Native Indians won’t allow it. Gambling gets a bad rap. It’s not a bad word.

    LOL guys. We have an entire thread dedicated to discussing Ryazan. Move this over there. Or not.

  • sabresrock29

    Skill based gambling. To me I view daily fantasy as blackjack. Yes it’s gambling and I need luck to win but by using a strategy I can increase my odds to win. Skill alone won’t win and luck alone won’t win. You need both.

  • CrazyGabey

    @Ryazan said...

    here’s the problem:

    you, as someone who has played DFS only for low stakes, would think its gambling. Because you don’t have the experience of grinding out, day in and day out, higher stakes contests where luck plays little role and it’s all about skill.

    You were on the podcast for a long time here at RG and this gave you a big head, so you think that everything you say is fact. Dude, you know NOTHING. You’re wrong. Play some real contests, win some real contests, and then come back and give your opinions.

    Can’t argue with that. School is in session.

  • TeamTwerk

    @Ryazan said...

    here’s the problem:

    you, as someone who has played DFS only for low stakes, would think its gambling. Because you don’t have the experience of grinding out, day in and day out, higher stakes contests where luck plays little role and it’s all about skill.

    You were on the podcast for a long time here at RG and this gave you a big head, so you think that everything you say is fact. Dude, you know NOTHING. You’re wrong. Play some real contests, win some real contests, and then come back and give your opinions.

    Right. Only people that have played high stakes seemingly impulsively and recklessly can possibly know that DFS is not gambling.

  • Putz

    @Ryazan said...

    here’s the problem:

    you, as someone who has played DFS only for low stakes, would think its gambling. Because you don’t have the experience of grinding out, day in and day out, higher stakes contests where luck plays little role and it’s all about skill.

    You were on the podcast for a long time here at RG and this gave you a big head, so you think that everything you say is fact. Dude, you know NOTHING. You’re wrong. Play some real contests, win some real contests, and then come back and give your opinions.

    Starting your bankroll with a 5 figure CC balance wasn’t a gamble? Nah.

  • Ryazan

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    @Putz said...

    Starting your bankroll with a 5 figure CC balance wasn’t a gamble? Nah.

    not a gamble, but an investment.

    Are people who open their own restaurant or business gamblers too??

  • meerkatmreow

    @Ryazan said...

    Are people who open their own restaurant or business gamblers too??

    No, their businesses have tangible assets that can be liquidated and applied towards their loans if they fail and don’t tend to be funded through personally liable credit card debt.

  • yoteach

    • Blogger of the Month

    Someone asked for an update, and I apologize for the delay (ran into meeting as vote was ending and finally have a break now) but am pleased to report that AB 1437 passed in the California Assembly. A huge victory for DFS! It has no direct bearing on legality, as that is seen as separate issue (and wording specifically noted that aspect); but, it certainly cannot hurt and likely eases pressure for opinion by AG. Next step is State Senate, but the fact it passed across party lines with only one lone Nay vote (Levine) is huge. And, despite Levine being very vocal regarding the gambling element (even making an eerily similar statement to Gabey’s above), he said he supports letting the CA voters have their say and legalize it like they did horse racing, tribal casinos, etc. But, thanks to what I think was an ill-timed radio ad campaign by FSTA highlighting Levine’s anti-DFS stance (in Bay Area), Levine also played the victim card and said he’s been “attacked” by the industry. Even so, none of his colleagues sided with him, so it was a huge win! Big thanks to DFSPA, as Assembly Member Gray who brought forth the bill mentioned their advocacy (and ours as players) as having an impact.

  • slcseas

    @butkusaafl said...

    Gambling ought to be legalized in all 50 states. But Native Indians won’t allow it.

    Its the Jesus freaks and casino lobby that won’t allow it. Native Americans (and Native Indians for that matter) are like .1% of the the population and the last time I checked they didn’t hold many political positions. Native American casinos probably have influence in 6-7 states.

  • yoteach

    • Blogger of the Month

    @slcseas said...

    Its the Jesus freaks and casino lobby that won’t allow it. Native Americans (and Native Indians for that matter) are like .1% of the the population and the last time I checked they didn’t hold many political positions. Native American casinos probably have influence in 6-7 states.

    Yes, there is surely a small conservative Christian minority who oppose any form of gambling, but it has been my experience in looking at the political battles thus far that this is an issue that can actually unite left/right. A Democrat brought forth the bill today in CA, but an equal number of GOP/Dems spoke in support. One dissenting opinion came from a Democrat.

    And, at least here in California, the tribes have remained on the sidelines with regards to the DFS issue. Meanwhile, in Nevada, we know what stance the casino lobby took.

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