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  • ehafner

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    It’s my view that DFS is NOT gambling, but I know several people feel otherwise, so I figure I’d state my case publicly and see if/where I’m wrong.

    To be considered gambling, DFS would require three elements be present: consideration, chance, and prize.

    The crux of my argument is that there is no “chance” in DFS, only variance. Chance means that luck is factored into your outcome. While luck is absolutely a factor to winning in a small sample size, all of that luck evens out and negates itself in the long run. When you look at DFS in its proper context (play DFS infinity times w/ infinity people) your return = your edge in the game. Therefore, no chance is involved. Therefore, DFS is not gambling.

  • csandbizzle

    The problem with your argument ehafner is that everything viewed as chance can also be viewed as variance. The understanding of the variance and application of this knowledge is the “skill”.

    The fact that we have to view game of chance and game of skill as mutually exclusive is absurd. This is both a game of skill and a game of chance. The amount that the user can interface with action is the differentiator for me. The more informed decisions that a user can make regarding an action the better for the player in general.

    I may be off base as I’m in the camp of independantly regulated gambling in all forms, but the difference between sports betting or even blackjack is the number of independent decisions that need to be made for each action. In this case there’s usually atleast 10 depending on what you classify as an action.

  • lgp

    Gambling. Its still a game of skill as well though.

  • Wtoisb

    There are people who can make a living betting sports. For those that argue DFS is not gambling, you must first make a gold argument that sports betting is not gambling.

  • DoughSavant

    @Bigo1 said...

    Wow, there are still people out there who believe DFS is not gambling. Oh well.

    People are easily influenced by TV/commercials.

  • BobGrinder

    @Dmurphy104 said...

    gambling

    noun
    1.
    the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gamble

    Full Definition of GAMBLE

    intransitive verb
    1
    a : to play a game for money or property
    b : to bet on an uncertain outcome
    2

    to stake something on a contingency : take a chance

  • loured

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    Regardless if it gambling or not,, what are we as players gonna do to keep it around. We just sit back we will see states one by one begin banning it. Poker was illegal from the start, but we have the upperhand right now because we are legal.. We have such a large community we should be making noise!!!

  • Pennywize69

    Regardless if its consider skill based or luck gambling the casinos are pushing it out of the states. I live in CT we have Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods here. 15 minutes north MGM is building a casino in Springfield Ma. The states do not know how to manage themselves and their financial answer is to build a casino. Looking at everything that’s going on I don’t see how we can fight back when the casinos are financially backing so many states and do not want DFS to survive.

  • JoeTall

    FastFantasy COO

    This comes down to what your definition of gambling is and finding a political that agrees with your views.

    There is skill in crossing the street, there is also gambling when crossing the street!

  • Pennywize69

    Gambling or not gambling isn’t the issue. Casinos want foot traffic and DFS is a threat to them. Our states listen to the casinos.

  • loured

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    It does not matter what we think. They could care less if this is gambling or not. The door has opened for the anti DFS people (mainly casino based interest and religious maniacs) if we dont try and close it. We are done

  • Pennywize69

    Wish we would see more of what happened with Kansas and DFS as an example out in the Media..

  • slcseas

    I guess you could get all cute with the definition, but if you’re wagering money it’s gambling. Period. If it wasn’t for the dim bulbs and jesus freaks of the world, we wouldn’t have to get into those semantics though.

  • DavidK44

    @csandbizzle said...

    The problem with your argument ehafner is that everything viewed as chance can also be viewed as variance. The understanding of the variance and application of this knowledge is the “skill”.

    The fact that we have to view game of chance and game of skill as mutually exclusive is absurd. This is both a game of skill and a game of chance. The amount that the user can interface with action is the differentiator for me. The more informed decisions that a user can make regarding an action the better for the player in general.

    I may be off base as I’m in the camp of independantly regulated gambling in all forms, but the difference between sports betting or even blackjack is the number of independent decisions that need to be made for each action. In this case there’s usually atleast 10 depending on what you classify as an action.

    Thank you oh so much. Even the law in MOST states takes this into consideration – MOST states consider gambling, as in illegal gambling, to be an activity where chance is the dominant factor over skill. The predominant factor test.

    It’s not what every state uses, obviously, but it’s the view in most states. It recongizes that in most activities where money is at stake and people can win money, there’s both chance and skill. The question is which one is the dominant factor. I think almost everyone here would say that skill is more dominant than chance, but it doesn’t mean chance is 0.

  • pmsimkins

    • 2014 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

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    @ehafner said...

    I think you guys are looking at it too narrow. DFS GPPs have VERY high variance, so it makes it appear that there’s luck involved in DFS. But if you play DFS GPPs many many times over all that luck evens out, and all that is left is your edge in the game.

    I actually think you have a very narrow definition of gambling. The crux of your argument is really any wagering where it’s possible to have an expected positive outcome isn’t gambling. Sorry, but that just isn’t the common accepted definition of gambling.

    Take proposition gambling for instance. You can make wagers knowing you have 99.99% chance of winning and it is still proposition “gambling”.

  • Steroid

    @BobGrinder said...

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gamble

    Full Definition of GAMBLE

    intransitive verb
    1
    a : to play a game for money or property
    b : to bet on an uncertain outcome
    2

    to stake something on a contingency : take a chance

    Then…
    Stock Market
    Options Market
    Futures Market, especially Futures
    = Gambling

    No?

  • BobGrinder

    @Steroid said...

    Then…
    Stock Market
    Options Market
    Futures Market, especially Futures
    = Gambling

    No?

    Absolutely!

    edit And skill based

  • headChopper

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    @ehafner said...

    I think you guys are looking at it too narrow. DFS GPPs have VERY high variance, so it makes it appear that there’s luck involved in DFS. But if you play DFS GPPs many many times over all that luck evens out, and all that is left is your edge in the game.

    I think this has been part of the problem for a while now. Everyone has been brainwashed into coming in and thinking they can win big money in large field tournaments but that’s where the greatest day to day variance exists. So most people, even players who WOULD have had an edge, never see the long term edge because their bled dry quickly.
    This is as opposed to someone who balances out his game selection and last longer till he can realize his edge.

  • csandbizzle

    @Steroid said...

    Then…
    Stock Market
    Options Market
    Futures Market, especially Futures
    = Gambling

    No?

    i think it would be difficult for anyone to reasom that the futures market is not gambling.

    Some one correct me if I’m wrong but I have to believe that Markets were never meant to trade in the volume that they do today. Day traders, in an ideal market, do not need to exist.

    regardless any sort of investment with the possibility of loss or gain based upon outside factors has to be viewed as a gamble in my opinion.

  • tmarohl

    I love DFS, and I love gambling. DFS is gambling in my opinion. People have mentioned that it is a game of skill. So is blackjack, poker and horse racing. I don’t see much of a difference. You need education or skill to win in any of these. Some of these large GPP’s are not much different then buying a lottery ticket.

  • Njcop2001

    DFS is parimutuel wagering. The house has no risk, they take their rake regardless of who wins or loses. Same as horse racing for example. Which brings up the fact that these sites keeping the odds (owner percentage) hidden a huge problem for the general public.

  • MikeSos760

    Gambling.

  • ehafner

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    @BobGrinder said...

    Full Definition of GAMBLE

    intransitive verb
    1
    a : to play a game for money or property
    b : to bet on an uncertain outcome

    This is why gambling and game of skill are mutually exclusive imo. In games of skill, your bets are certain in the long run. You wager your money, and your return = your edge in the game.

    When you factor in public perception, we should absolutely be labeling them as mutually exclusive. A lot of people associate gambling with games of total luck like roulette or games played against a house that collects vig and are beatable with skill like sports betting/blackjack.

    DFS is neither of these things and it benefits us to promote DFS as a skill game, making it unique from sports betting/blackjack etc. The fact that poker is still illegal in this country should be a wake up call to all of us because that is a skill game as well. I believe we should stop calling it gambling when that’s either wrong or best case a debatable semantics discussion.

  • pinballmick

    Now that the dominos are starting to line up someone needs to explain to these reporters and politicians that DFS is not game were we are gambling on point spreads or out comes of games. What we have is players from many teams and it does not matter what these real teams do meaning win or lose or if they beat the point spread. Real life wins and loses in the NFL don’t matter to us . DFS is about looking at players and trends and match-ups
    and hot streaks. Then using this info to make good line-ups to put together a team of players from many different NFL teams. it’s really fool proof and cheat proof, you can’t really pay off a ref or a player or a manager it doesn’t work that way in DFS. So the general public thinks we are gambling on teams and point spreads and has no idea that it’s about these players statistics and how they perform. Isn’t that
    how the stock market works, if a company performs well ( example Apple Stock ) and is on a hot streak you are more likely to take a risk and buy more stock and put them in your 401k or your stock portfolio. So it works just like that in DFS. Each day when I sit down to play a DFS contest or game I look at each player as a stock, I look to see how is he performing I look to see if he is on a hot streak. I want to know what his match up this week who is the guy that he will be facing. This is a lot of statistical analysis and a lot thought goes into picking the right players to be in my line up. This is not gambling it’s work and a lot of strategy.
    Gambling should be doing a quick pick of player names like at the lottery counter and that would be my line up. Now that would be gambling. So it’s a information war and we’re losing it because the general public does not understand DFS. This info above needs to be conveyed to the public Does Draft Kings and Fan Duel have a public relations firm. why don’t they have a you tube channel running video’s telling the true story of DFS and then linking those videos and press releases to there Twitter and Facebook feeds. They need to fire there public relations people they have and hire me asap.
    Also they should be buying ad time showing commercials about how this
    is not gambling, maybe hire a spokesman who is respected like Johhny Bench or Derrick Jetter or Jerry Rice and turn the tables.
    We’re talking about a Billion Dollar industry that is losing a information war. How can this be that they can’t see this. I encourage everyone if you have a YouTube channel upload a video and label it how Daily Fantasy Sports has made your life fun or maybe it gave you a job or changed your life. Show the positive side. Put these videos on YouTube and code them with good key words and then send the links to your local politicians and representatives and newspaper reporters that have been writing about DFS. Good luck and long Live
    DFS

  • gaelicgirl

    Of course it’s gambling. DFS is just like sports betting, but instead of betting on whole teams you bet on discrete parts of teams. If anything, playing DFS is more of a gamble than regular sports betting.

  • tnovakow

    Definitely Gambling with advantage. Same with poker the more skilled a player the better results from said Gambling. I think regulation is in order. The only issue I have is that when our politicians regulate something they outright outlaw it as with online poker. There should be no reason online poker cant be played in the usa 4 years later. The reason it is still not a regulated product is there isn’t enough “poker people” to sway elections.

    I think that there is plenty of powerful people that want to keep DFS legalized so we wont lose it altogether. you have major corporations and all TOP sports leagues affiliated with it. so the money and power will flow.

    IMHO

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