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  • ehafner

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    It’s my view that DFS is NOT gambling, but I know several people feel otherwise, so I figure I’d state my case publicly and see if/where I’m wrong.

    To be considered gambling, DFS would require three elements be present: consideration, chance, and prize.

    The crux of my argument is that there is no “chance” in DFS, only variance. Chance means that luck is factored into your outcome. While luck is absolutely a factor to winning in a small sample size, all of that luck evens out and negates itself in the long run. When you look at DFS in its proper context (play DFS infinity times w/ infinity people) your return = your edge in the game. Therefore, no chance is involved. Therefore, DFS is not gambling.

  • walkoff9

    By the definition, no, but by what most people would actually consider gambling , yes.

    I believe DFS, Poker, sportsbetting are all the same. Gambling, but skills games that should be 100% legal.

  • winsome

    The only way one refuses to see it as gambling is because they want it to continue. The poker analogy is so tired at this point because you can’t increase your chance of winning a poker game by multi entering. Has any “pro” ever consistently won a single entry contest? Apples to oranges.

    DFS has directly aligned itself with gambling by having live events in Vegas and using lines/odds in every piece of analysis since the outset. For them to try to take the high road now that their arrogance has choked their growth is ballsy. The whole model is based on the illusion of a carve out that allowed it to exist when in fact it simply doesn’t address it. Had lawmakers known the possibilities, they likely would’ve never made it grey.

  • tnovakow

    @winsome said...

    The only way one refuses to see it as gambling is because they want it to continue. The poker analogy is so tired at this point because you can’t increase your chance of winning a poker game by multi entering. Has any “pro” ever consistently won a single entry contest? Apples to oranges.

    So muti-accounting and multi-tabling online poker have no similarites with entering a gpp 500 times?

    that made no sense honestly.

  • Redskins4

    It is gambling, when MaxDalary puts Cobb on 500 out of 500 teams he is gambling that Cobb has a big game and he will make a lot of money. Every week you gamble on players you think are going to do well.

  • DavidK44

    @ehafner said...

    This is why gambling and game of skill are mutually exclusive imo. In games of skill, your bets are certain in the long run. You wager your money, and your return = your edge in the game.

    You are free to have that opinion, but I am fairly certain that it is an incredibly, incredibly small percent of people who view it this way, the english language’s definitions of the worlds do not feel this way, and as far as I know, no state’s laws or court opinions have ever held anything even remotely resembling this.

    Just to illustrate the absurdity of arguing that gambling and game of skill are mutually exclusive, I rig (and yes, I used my own skill and ability) a coin so that it falls on heads 50.1% of the time. We agree to wager on coin-flips, me picking heads and you picking tails, for an undefined number of times, for 10 cents a flip. Our bankrolls are $10 million each. Because eventually, in the very very long run, I’ll end up a decent amount, this is a game of skill?

    In this case, my skill has moved the odds from 50/50 to 50.1 to 49.9; but therefore it’s a game of skill, right?

  • DavidK44

    A far better way to think about it is shades/degrees. It’s certainly not a pure gamble, like a true coin flip, but it’s certainly not chess, an almost pure skill game (even in chess, who goes first is determined by luck I believe, and that offers an advantage). DFS, like poker, tend towards the skill side but there is enough luck/chance in any one contest that trying to arguing it’s not gambling at all is quite a stretch.

  • winsome

    @tnovakow said...

    So muti-accounting and multi-tabling online poker have no similarites with entering a gpp 500 times?

    that made no sense honestly.

    A single seat at 100 different tables with different cards/outcomes is the same as 100 different entries in the same GPP that has 1 result? Hmmmm…..

    I’m curious, where are you playing online poker in the US anymore? The analogy is poker/DFS not ONLINE poker.

  • tnovakow

    never said same I said similar. And my analogy between ONLINE poker and DFS was to illustrate why DFS may have a chance to stick around unlike ONLINE poker because there are more sports people, corporations and leagues to support DFS than online poker. Online poker and DFS are the same type of advantage gambling regardless of which scripts, algorithms and information that a skill player decides to use. In the end its the same concept.

  • tnovakow

    And as far as “where im playing poker in the usa?” you posed, the type of thinking that “ i dont play online poker so i dont care if its outlawed” is the main reason we cant play it today. And DFS could go the same way if enough people think like that about it.

  • WilliamDeBrigham

    for sure its gambling….no question about it dont kid yourself.

  • jepst14

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    I think its funny (in pa) that they are discussing a ban in pa but at any point i can gamble on horse races nation wide online without a hiccup (xpressbet.com). I think it is gambling to some extent. I feel that i am putting up my entry fee with my own picks that i selected based on the research i conducted to outperform everyone else. Although usually the outcome varies in the end it was my decision and my research and time to select those players. I mean don’t get me wrong, luck is a little involved in the results, but not as much as many may believe imo. That is not the case in poker or other casino games. In that situation I rely on luck and some skill to hopefully do well on how the dice are rolled or the cards that are drawn. Obviously putting up money to attempt to get a return is gambling, but you are wagering entry fees on your time, research, money and experience. I don’t understand how I can go online, deposit on xpressbet, gamble on horses in california (based on odds and names) and that be legal.

  • tnovakow

    ok Last post on poker vs dfs.

    Poker is not a casino game. Yes its spread at the casino. But you dont play the house. you play other people and pay RAKE sound familiar.

    Poker
    entry fee/buyin – yes
    Rake- Yes
    Skillful players win more often – yes
    players can angle for more edge – YES (collude, trade information on players, multi-enter tourneys, multi table)
    has new players that sharks prey on-Yes

    DFS
    entry fee/buyin – yes
    Rake- Yes
    Skillful players win more often – yes
    players can angle for more edge – YES (scripts, algorithms, inside information, etc )
    has new players that sharks prey on-Yes

    There are plenty more but i think you get the gist. One of these is illegal and staying illegal (except for NV and NJ) and one is heading in that direction. you can turn the blind eye but this is reality.

  • Njcop2001

    @winsome said...

    A single seat at 100 different tables with different cards/outcomes is the same as 100 different entries in the same GPP that has 1 result? Hmmmm…..

    I’m curious, where are you playing online poker in the US anymore? The analogy is poker/DFS not ONLINE poker.

    NJ has legal online poker.

  • ehafner

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    @DavidK44 said...

    Just to illustrate the absurdity of arguing that gambling and game of skill are mutually exclusive, I rig (and yes, I used my own skill and ability) a coin so that it falls on heads 50.1% of the time. We agree to wager on coin-flips, me picking heads and you picking tails, for an undefined number of times, for 10 cents a flip. Our bankrolls are $10 million each. Because eventually, in the very very long run, I’ll end up a decent amount, this is a game of skill?

    In this case, my skill has moved the odds from 50/50 to 50.1 to 49.9; but therefore it’s a game of skill, right?

    Not sure what you’re getting at here. Rigging the coin just turns a total game of chance into a hustle.

    “A far better way to think about it is shades/degrees. It’s certainly not a pure gamble, like a true coin flip, but it’s certainly not chess, an almost pure skill game (even in chess, who goes first is determined by luck I believe, and that offers an advantage). DFS, like poker, tend towards the skill side but there is enough luck/chance in any one contest that trying to arguing it’s not gambling at all is quite a stretch.”

    The shades/degrees are in VARIANCE. Chess is a skill game with low variance. DFS is a skill game with high variance. Just because DFS is high variance doesn’t automatically make it gambling. Your winnings will be predominantly based on skill in DFS just like it does in chess. It just takes longer to realize your true expectation in DFS than it does in chess.

  • deactivated84892

    @winsome said...

    The only way one refuses to see it as gambling is because they want it to continue. The poker analogy is so tired at this point because you can’t increase your chance of winning a poker game by multi entering. Has any “pro” ever consistently won a single entry contest? Apples to oranges

    Have you played Online Poker?

    The pro’s absolutely ran multiple tables at once. Same concept.

  • DavidK44

    @ehafner said...

    Not sure what you’re getting at here. Rigging the coin just turns a total game of chance into a hustle.

    “A far better way to think about it is shades/degrees. It’s certainly not a pure gamble, like a true coin flip, but it’s certainly not chess, an almost pure skill game (even in chess, who goes first is determined by luck I believe, and that offers an advantage). DFS, like poker, tend towards the skill side but there is enough luck/chance in any one contest that trying to arguing it’s not gambling at all is quite a stretch.”

    The shades/degrees are in VARIANCE. Chess is a skill game with low variance. DFS is a skill game with high variance. Just because DFS is high variance doesn’t automatically make it gambling. Your winnings will be predominantly based on skill in DFS just like it does in chess. It just takes longer to realize your true expectation in DFS than it does in chess.

    You know about the coin rig, and you don’t care. It’s no longer a hustle. It’s a game that has an INCREDIBLY small amount of skill (the skill I used in rigging the coin) but it’s still a skill game under your definition.

    Your second paragraph is actually in agreement with what I’m saying. Games of skill and gambling are not mutually exclusive. Gambling just means there’s chance, and games of skill just means that there’s skill. How STRONG each element is, is a subject for debate, obviously. The coin flip game I proposed is almost entirely chance, with a tiny, tiny, tiny skill element. DFS is a game with a lot of skill but still a fairly noticeable amount of chance.

    Chess, as far as I know, involves virtually no amount of chance. Could be wrong, I don’t play chess, but since it’s perfect information I am assuming that it’s no element of chance past the initial flip to see who is white.

    The key is not whether something is “gambling” or a “game of skill”; you can be both. Nothing wrong with being both. Most states define gambling as something where chance is the dominant factor in the result. I happen to agree with that way of defining what is “gambling” and what is not. But your definition of “if there’s any skill, then there can’t be chance because in the longest run, skill will win out” is just baffling.

  • DavidK44

    @gundacker said...

    Have you played Online Poker?

    The pro’s absolutely ran multiple tables at once. Same concept.

    Without getting into the online poker compared to DFS argument, I believe the point of differentiation is that in the cae of multi-tabling, they were seats in distinct/seperate tournmanets, or different cash tables (or some combination of both), as opposed to multiple entries into the same contest, with lineups that drew from the same exact player pool.

  • tnovakow

    @DavidK44 said...

    Without getting into the online poker compared to DFS argument, I believe the point of differentiation is that in the cae of multi-tabling, they were seats in distinct/seperate tournmanets, or different cash tables (or some combination of both), as opposed to multiple entries into the same contest, with lineups that drew from the same exact player pool.

    Oh Online poker had that too. and it was a big scandal too. Only difference is the unregulated sites put a stop to it immediately.

  • fishcakeking

    FCK

    @ehafner said...

    I think you guys are looking at it too narrow. DFS GPPs have VERY high variance, so it makes it appear that there’s luck involved in DFS. But if you play DFS GPPs many many times over all that luck evens out, and all that is left is your edge in the game.

    80,000 person NBA gpp on a 2 game slate is gambling.

  • dingdangdong

    Yes it’s gambling, but it’s my right to do so. I have to go into a casino and gamble? This absurd.

  • slinkymaster

    @Bigo1 said...

    Wow, there are still people out there who believe DFS is not gambling. Oh well.

    It’s called denial

  • dingdangdong

    I think the main issue with online poker was taxing sites income. Since they weren’t based in U.S. taxes couldn’t be collected on the rake.

  • tnovakow

    @dingdangdong said...

    I think the main issue with online poker was taxing sites income. Since they weren’t based in U.S. taxes couldn’t be collected on the rake.

    Then why was it banned instead of a us company tapping a billion dollar market? my take is its because the casinos want people to come in to thier brick and mortar establishments instead of sitting at home getting there fix. again this was a billion dollar market they just sqashed and no one is getting tax money.

  • 1greatbuyz

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    @britdevine said...

    Skill Gambling just like poker, you are not playing the house, you are playing other people betting real dollars that you are better than them making a lineup that will score more points than them.

    Gambling is playing the lottery, pulling an arm on a slot machine against the house, or betting against a house line..which is totally different that skill gaming

    Pretty much this. If we all put in X amount of dollars and then drew random lineups that were preset that would be gambling. Somebody would win and somebody would lose, but we would have no control over that.

  • winsome

    @dingdangdong said...

    I think the main issue with online poker was taxing sites income. Since they weren’t based in U.S. taxes couldn’t be collected on the rake.

    The main issue was the rampant fraud (perception and real) which is partially why this issue escalated so quickly. It’s mainly complaint driven and once the media latches on it snowballs.

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