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  • ehafner

    • 2015 RotoGrinders TPOY Champion

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    It’s my view that DFS is NOT gambling, but I know several people feel otherwise, so I figure I’d state my case publicly and see if/where I’m wrong.

    To be considered gambling, DFS would require three elements be present: consideration, chance, and prize.

    The crux of my argument is that there is no “chance” in DFS, only variance. Chance means that luck is factored into your outcome. While luck is absolutely a factor to winning in a small sample size, all of that luck evens out and negates itself in the long run. When you look at DFS in its proper context (play DFS infinity times w/ infinity people) your return = your edge in the game. Therefore, no chance is involved. Therefore, DFS is not gambling.

  • pburghpens22

    @Lonnie20 said...

    I agree with ehafner…..for him it’s prob not gambling but for 99 percent of U.S. It’s gambling and probably in all honesty a suckers play. I love Dfs but the playing field isn’t level. Just saying.

    How is it not level?

  • pburghpens22

    To me it’s not gambling….it’s a game of skill, anything you do in life can be considered gambling if you look at it the right way, so why don’t we ban everything we do! !!!

  • imsogone

    @pburghpens22 said...

    To me it’s not gambling….it’s a game of skill, anything you do in life can be considered gambling if you look at it the right way, so why don’t we ban everything we do! !!!

    Because you aren’t wagering money on day to day activities. Saying everything you do in life is gambling is stupid because you aren’t betting money if you’ll make it to work on time.

  • eKing

    1st place finishes are fluke and 1-game H2H series aren’t enough to declare someone has more skill than the other. I do believe those who consistently cash in GPPs and H2H/Double ups are skilled though.

  • finn4

    Its a game of chance when you cannot predict the future and you dont know how players are going to peform. Look at eddie lacy yesterday.

  • skinnyskins

    NFL Feud of Champions ($100K) Winner

    They just need to bring daily joust back! No1 cared when we had the little 3 entrie max $5000 pool gpps now cuz we have blown up to where we play for millions its an issue….alot of us have been doing this for over 5 years how the hell is just now a problem? !?

  • CeeGee

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    @britdevine said...

    Skill Gambling just like poker, you are not playing the house, you are playing other people betting real dollars that you are better than them making a lineup that will score more points than them.

    Gambling is playing the lottery, pulling an arm on a slot machine against the house, or betting against a house line..which is totally different that skill gaming

    ^ This exactly.

    Once people accept the fact that, DFS is in fact gambling, I think we’ll all be in a better place.

    Convincing the Nation, that “gambling is ok” is the hurdle we’re going to run into

  • BobGrinder

    @CeeGee said...

    Convincing the Nation, that “gambling is ok” is the hurdle we’re going to run into

    Not really, polls already show Americans think sports betting should be legal.

  • Georgesteele

    It isn’t any more gambling than playing the stock market.

  • old_T

    • 2016 DraftKings FHWC Finalist

    @CeeGee said...

    Convincing the Nation, that “gambling is ok” is the hurdle we’re going to run into

    This is seemingly not plausible, but would definitely be the best solution. In the UK, gambling is not considered to be such a nefarious or shady activity in which only degenerates participate. For the most part it’s accepted as another form of entertainment on which one is free to spend his or her money. Gambling is seen by many in the USA a nefarious or shady activity. That is the real problem.

    I have what I think is an interesting question for the OP…so it seems like your argument is that you have an expected outcome in the long run and that outcome is determined by your level of skill, so it’s not gambling. This same argument could be applied to regular sports betting; i.e. your skill (your research) in sports betting can lead you to have a positive expected outcome in the long run (a la pro sports bettors) thanks to variance. Thus, do you also consider sports betting to not be gambling?

    The only difference I can see is that in DFS you have the added skill of lineup building in addition to the research part of skill, but I’m sure there are aspects of sports betting to which one could equate lineup building, such as constructing parlays or others.

  • sangamc

    DFS: I am gambling on my skill. :)

    DFS the game is a game of skill. Put money on my skill level = gambling.

    No other way around it.

  • bluestooges

    If DFS is no more gambling than a sales job. You can work really hard and some days you don’t make as much as you would like. Some days “the new guy” hits a home run and makes a killing. Your income isn’t guaranteed but over time good sales guys make a good living. Gambling is pure chance not anything that isn’t guaranteed. Lots of jobs out there are not hourly wages, Is being a lawyer gambling? Most lawyers don’t make a thing unless they win. Is starting your own business considered gambling? Just because you don’t know if you are for sure going to make money at something doesn’t make it gambling. If you can be more successful at something through skill then you are not gambling. Are pro baseball players gambling when they try and hit a curve ball? Sometimes they miss and have a terrible 0-4 day at the plate, but they definitely do better over time than someone like myself would.

  • BobGrinder

    Did they risk money to win money when they stepped into the batters box?

  • bluestooges

    @BobGrinder said...

    Did they risk money to win money when they stepped into the batters box?

    If they don’t perform over time they will make less than the guy that does.

  • BobGrinder

    @bluestooges said...

    If they don’t perform over time they will make less than the guy that does.

    The point you’re trying to avoid is its the wager that makes it gambling.

  • sangamc

    @bluestooges said...

    @BobGrinder said…

    If they don’t perform over time they will make less than the guy that does.

    They did not risk money to win money. Baseball players are on contract. Injured players still get paid.

  • bluestooges

    @BobGrinder said...

    The point you’re trying to avoid is its the wager that makes it gambling.

    Real estate agents front a bunch of their own money to try and sell a house and sometimes they don’t sell. You would have to say they are also gambling then.

  • BobGrinder

    @sangamc said...

    They did not risk money to win money. Baseball players are on contract. Injured players still get paid.

    Did you actually just say that? Thank you, I’ll be laughing hysterically at random times for the rest of the week!

  • BobGrinder

    @bluestooges said...

    Real estate agents front a bunch of their own money to try and sell a house and sometimes they don’t sell. You would have to say they are also gambling then.

    At least that is a slightly better analogy. It’s a gamble yes but its just the cost of doing business. You could say the reverse about a professional gambler, that they are not making a bet but “investing” in their business.

  • jtdragon

    If you feel the stock market is completely for the societal good, you are grossly naive. It allows those with more money to make even more money, and is pretty disadvantageous to the small individual investor. And the stock market is not purely to invest in companies growth…there are other ways the stock market is “played” that speculate on companies doing poorly or the entire market doing poorly. This is not even to mentioned high risk leveraged plays that sometimes appear to be more gambling than knowledge-based. Playing DFS and watching sports with more attachment is enjoyable…so having someone feel happy is not a societal good?

  • dingdangdong

    It’s not gambling because it’s not a game of chance. Consider blackjack; you are dealt two unknown cards and must use a strategy to maximize your equity. Since the two cards are distributed relatively at random, your choices are limited to which cards you receive. Creating a lineup using the same pool of players at the same salary as everyone else removes the chance aspect. Yes, there is a chance the players you’ve done hours of research on don’t perform nearly as well as you expect, but that “chance” isn’t distributed at random prior to lineup construction.

    Now, if the players you had a chance to choose were blindly picked from a hat with the distribution based on odds of positive or negative performance, it would become gambling.

  • jetsforcup

    It is gambling, but not in the sense that some people think. The reason it is gambling is because money is wagered. But so is money wagered in playing the stocks. Heck, most people even use that expression “playing the stocks.” And this suggests that there are the elements of risk, chance, and fun cause that is what playing is all about and that is what dfs is. Really, not a whole lot of difference between dfs and stocks.

    But it is not gambling like at the casino’s except for poker. (and maybe a couple of other games I am unaware of) At the casino’s you are not playing other players. At the casino you generally play the house/machine etc. In dfs you are playing players of different skill levels. In a casino game like blackjack there is a strategy, but that strategy never changes.

    For example, to get optimal results in blackjack you have to play certain scenarios the same way every time. With dfs strategy changes depending not on the house, but on the other players. Hence, it is ultimately a game of skill that is produced by the competition of other players. In gambling games against a house, such as blackjack, one could argue loosely that there too it is a “game of skill” because you need to know what to do in certain situations. This however is not the essence of the point; the point is that the other players matter.

    Unfortunately, for American players, certain states claim otherwise. But, it is my opinion that they are just trying to get their hands on revenues from dfs sites. That is terribly unfortunate, and I am glad I live in Canada. Doesn’t the American national anthem declare it to be the “land of the free”? haha well America doesn’t really seem that free to me compared to Canada.

  • EadesScience

    Anytime you have to “Predict” or look into the future using past performance, strength of the opponent, etc…You are making an educated guess or a Hypothesis by using data based decisions. We hope that these educated guesses are correct, but we do not control the variables in DFS regardless of the type of game or sport of choice. For this reason DFS does rely on skill for the player doing their research. However, the various variables transforms the game into an unknown which results in chance or even luck in many circumstances.

    Let me give you an example. I usually construct around 10 to 20 NBA lineups a night and play them in a GPP. I use a spreadsheet for my construction and each lineup contains a core group of players surrounded by an assortment of other players making each lineup unique. After the contests have ended I go back to my spreadsheet and look at the results as it it shows me both the projected value and the true value. On any given night I chose players that all scored really well, but I just did not have them in the right combination. When I tell my spreadsheet to find me the best possible lineup that I could both afford and score high with the result is that I would have always won the GPP using that particular lineup. So I did use skill in choosing my player pool, but in my opinion choosing that exact right combination is pure luck in order to win the 1st place prize.

    So Yes, DFS has an element of gambling involved just like choosing a portfolio for my 401K. I do not have the ability to see into the future and can only make a decision based upon the data. This is how I choose to play DFS, but not everyone chooses this method.

    Now let’s take a look at a different approach which dangles on the edge that once again in my opinion is more in the line of just gambling. When one does not rely upon their own skill and uses the advice or lineups of others in their entries there is no skill involved. One simply copies, plays, and hopes for a positive outcome.

    Just my thoughts,

    Ricky

  • cdaus8989

    It’s a game of skill. Nothing in life is certain, we can’t control things that are out of our hands. What we can do is use our knowledge, and planning to select the best alternative among competing alternatives. Those with the best process of doing so set themselves up for success more than someone with an inferior process. It is quite similar to trading on the stock market. There is tons of information, and ways to decipher that information. At the same time there are instances that you can be burned by a company using shady accounting practices, just like you can be burned by Blake Griffin getting tossed from the game.

    That is just my opinion, but some of the reasons people use to define it as gambling are ridiculous. There was literally a guy just commenting on ESPN that it is an absolute game of chance. His reasoning is that he started Dwayne Wade last night….That just happened, you can’t make this stuff up. It was common knowledge well before tipoff that Wade would be sitting out that game. He didn’t realize it, but he was actually adding to the evidence that skill (or at least a little bit of effort…) is a crucial factor.

  • skwalk47

    It’s gambling, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a game of skill…

    I think there is no difference between a poker player who is all in with AA over KK losing when their opponent flops a K and a DFS player losing when they need Blake Griffin to get 30 fantasy points to cash and he gets tossed in the fist half.

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