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  • ehafner

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    It’s my view that DFS is NOT gambling, but I know several people feel otherwise, so I figure I’d state my case publicly and see if/where I’m wrong.

    To be considered gambling, DFS would require three elements be present: consideration, chance, and prize.

    The crux of my argument is that there is no “chance” in DFS, only variance. Chance means that luck is factored into your outcome. While luck is absolutely a factor to winning in a small sample size, all of that luck evens out and negates itself in the long run. When you look at DFS in its proper context (play DFS infinity times w/ infinity people) your return = your edge in the game. Therefore, no chance is involved. Therefore, DFS is not gambling.

  • skwalk47

    First line of the Gambling article on Wikipedia.

    Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.

    We need to stop with this binary discussion of gambling OR skill. By definition, DFS (along with investing in the stock market) is gambling. That doesnt mean either isn’t a game (or career) of skill where you can use methods to reduce variance. However, reducing variance through many repetitions or being +EV does not change the fact that it is by definition gambling.

  • commandercoo1

    Gambling shouldn’t be illegal anyways. DFS players pay their taxes and so do the companies that operate it. This is just the government wanting a say in every damn thing in our lives.

  • cdaus8989

    @skwalk47 said...

    It’s gambling, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a game of skill…

    I think there is no difference between a poker player who is all in with AA over KK losing when their opponent flops a K and a DFS player losing when they need Blake Griffin to get 30 fantasy points to cash and he gets tossed in the fist half.

    That’s variance for ya, anything can happen with a tiny sample size, but if you keep making the right choice (Playing the AA’s, needing Blake to get you 30fp the 80 out of 82 games he doesn’t get tossed) you’re going to win more often than not. Just like if someone invests all their money into the small sample size of one company, they could easily get burned. But diversify into many different companies, and you’re eliminating that risk.

    Edit: My bad I didn’t see your 2nd post where you pretty much just explained this…

  • cdaus8989

    @commandercoo1 said...

    Gambling shouldn’t be illegal anyways. DFS players pay their taxes and so do the companies that operate it. This is just the government wanting a say in every damn thing in our lives.

    Pretty much my thinking. It’s a game of skill. Whether or not it can be argued to fit the definition of “gambling” I don’t really know. It’s obviously not like playing a slot machine etc., but still has uncontrolable aspects. I really don’t see the problem here, just let me play my damn DFS.

  • jonconnington

    DFS is pretty clearly obviously gambling. It’s irrational to say otherwise. There is skill involved yes, but it’s still gambling.

  • srolleDFS

    this is from the NY statute:

    2. “Gambling.” A person engages in gambling when he stakes or risks
    something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future
    contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement
    or understanding that he will receive something of value in the event of
    a certain outcome.

    the normal conversational use of the word gambling is different than the relevant definition in the law. day-trading is gambling under a conversational defintion of gambling. obviously day-trading is allowed in ny. why? because there is a specific definition that was adopted for the law. and thats it.

    does dfs fit under that definition? i dont think it does. i dont think dfs is a “contest of chance”. a brand new player would be skinned alive by a top pro in a H2H. think of a hand of poker, heads up, bt the best player in the world and a brand new player. then think of one h2h. which is more edge? its not even close. go to the bottom of the milly maker csv and check out those lineups. they are so terrible, i think their win% would be less

  • bbrookie9

    Quote from my buddy who is a district judge,when asked how he would rule based off of Federal UIGEA, Game of skill or chance.“It’s both-like poker.Depends on how many play and how much they are playing for.If you’re playing with thousands for millions, it’s gambling.”
    As conversation continued it basically boils down to the fact that there is to much money up for grabs.Laws are being made.The states want a piece of the pie.
    The saving grace may be the way the NYAG worded his cease and desist order trying to differentiate season long from daily.FD and DK can argue that they are charging a fee for drafting your team to compete against others on a daily basis and awarding prizes to the winners.Basically the same thing as doing a season long league on an online site that charges a fee to run league..Yes there are places that do it for free,but,there are also places that will collect and distribute winnings.

  • Nytimessux

    Very bothersome when news outlets are saying the companies accept “bets”. The are pre designed contests with pre determined prizes. So if a contest does not fill massive overlay. Draftkings got this large by putting up huge guarantees and occasionally paying out huge overlays. The companies do not accept bets. These are contest. It is very troubling.

  • realmoney

    Roulette can be beaten.

    Bet $1 on black. If ball lands on black, you are up $1 and quit a winner. If it doesn’t, you bet $2 on black and repeat. Then $4, then $8, then $16, etc… first time ball lands on black you are up $1 and can quit. Casinos realized this and thus set min and max limits. Some casinos also “outlaw” this method as it is a “known” way to always beat the house.

  • katho54

    Fantasy Sports is 10% skill and 90% luck,So ill have to say its gambling……Anything that someone bets money on is gambling

  • ebsteelers

    cant it be both gambling and skill.

    i am taking a a gamble that my skill is better than yours and i’ll beat you head to head , gpp whatever

  • bbqnut

    Gambling. Because gambling is such a “dirty” word, the founders of FD and DK have been trying to deny this fact since the inception of dfs. States endorse many forms of gambling so why not dfs? Imo, fantasy sites should be spending less energy on trying to deny dfs is gambling, and instead, they should be concentrating on working with lawmakers on regulating and legalizing.

  • theoddsmaker

    @realmoney said...

    Roulette can be beaten.

    Bet $1 on black. If ball lands on black, you are up $1 and quit a winner. If it doesn’t, you bet $2 on black and repeat. Then $4, then $8, then $16, etc… first time ball lands on black you are up $1 and can quit. Casinos realized this and thus set min and max limits. Some casinos also “outlaw” this method as it is a “known” way to always beat the house.

    I can’t imagine winning $1 and truly walking away from the table completely satisfied though…that’s how they make money too. People always want MORE

  • Dmurphy104

    • Blogger of the Month

    @realmoney said...

    Roulette can be beaten.

    Bet $1 on black. If ball lands on black, you are up $1 and quit a winner. If it doesn’t, you bet $2 on black and repeat. Then $4, then $8, then $16, etc… first time ball lands on black you are up $1 and can quit. Casinos realized this and thus set min and max limits. Some casinos also “outlaw” this method as it is a “known” way to always beat the house.

    Wait, you think the Martingale strategy is a legitimate strategy? Casinos love when people employ that strategy. Play long enough, any you’ll lose a ridiculous some trying to win $1. At some point you will lose 10 straight and will be betting $1024 to try to win that $1 back. No betting pattern can outsmart the odds.

    I doubt any casinos outlaw a Martingale system beyond setting the table limits. But you could always move tables if you and find one that will allow you to move up to the next # in the progression.

  • TPSC

    @Ryazan said...

    ok so why is stock market not banned anywhere?

    I know its regulated by the government. But all I am seeing the last few days is states flat out BANNING dfs and not even bothering to try to regulate it.

    Holy balls this little discussion has gone long enough without you being able to see what’s clear to most.

    Yes, DFS is gambling.

    Yes, investing in stocks is gambling.

    Investing in stocks is legal while DFS is (about to become) illegal because some group of legislators decided that investing in stocks serves a positive public purpose. Investing in stocks is legal despite the fact that it’s gambling because legislators decided that it’s good for members of society to 1) invest their money in lieu of spending it, and 2) it’s good for the business world to have investment from the public.

    Legislators see no such efficacy in people “investing” in the performance of individual players. So no public policy exception is made for DFS.

    DFS, of course, is hurt from the fact that the public aligns it with sports betting. As mentioned DFS sites have played a role in this by aligning themselves very closely with sports betting in multiple ways.

  • TPSC

    @Ryazan said...

    You know, the fact that there is a complete disagreement about this, kind of automatically says that you cannot just label dfs as gambling, because there isn’t enough to fully 100% support either argument.

    LOL at you thinking that 100-percent of people would need to think DFS is gambling for something bad to happen to DFS.

    And LOL at you thinking that THIS forum is somehow a representative sample.

  • TPSC

    @Ryazan said...

    you people just don’t get it. Take the hint and stop calling it gambling, no matter what your opinion is. The states say it is legal and a game of skill – some of you sound like you want that to change….why can’t you play DFS, enjoy it, and keep your opinions in your back pocket.

    Ryazan is under the impression that if 200 DFS players on Rotogrinders stop referring to DFS as gambling, it will somehow convince the thinking public that DFS is not gambling.

    Ryazan is delusional.

  • Ryazan

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      2015 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

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      2015 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    It’s not gambling, because I do not need to gamble with money to know that I will beat any of you people who are calling it gambling. My skill > your skill. My strategy > your strategy.

    The more you call it gambling, the more these political morons are affirmed that it is indeed gambling, when in fact it is not gambling. It is as much gambling as are stock markets – end of story. I work in finance, and I see myself picking different player stocks every single day for weeks and months at a time with a strategy in mind – to make money. It is investing, with elements of luck, skill, and strategy.

    Quite honestly, the ones who continue to flat out just call it gambling are not real DFS players, they are people who dislike DFS, they are people who have lost, probably to people like me who have more skill than people like you. You can’t play DFS if it’s gambling, are people so delusional about that?? Keep your biased stupid opinions to yourself.

    I have stupid opinions too that I can share. In fact, if you look up my post history, I had a couple of bad days last year when i gave NHL DFS a shot, and I lost at it. i started calling it all luck and stupid and not skill-based. I was an idiot – I shared a stupid OPINION based on me sucking at NHL DFS. Clearly, there are players good at NHL DFS, players who love NHL and analyze NHL, and if they can win consistantly, then their skill > mine.

    Those who think it’s gambling just need to stop playing and go to your local gas station, and buy $20 of scratch tickets and gamble on that instead.

  • Ryazan

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      2015 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

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      2015 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    would anybody else like to contribute on the fact that DFS is not gambling? Very good, I see you guys are finally starting to get it

  • AtGame7

    @Ryazan said...

    would anybody else like to contribute on the fact that DFS is not gambling? Very good, I see you guys are finally starting to get it

    It is gambling, that’s a fact and there is no use denying it. Our time would be better spent fighting this fight from a different angle than trying to convince the AG that it’s not gambling.

    ANYTHING can be gambling the second you risk something of value. Blackjack does not have to be gambling, it can just be a card game. If no money is wagered then blackjack is not gambling.

    DFS does not have to be gambling, you can play for fun if you want. The second you risk something of value, like money, then DFS turns into gambling.

    Yes, DFS is a game of skill, so is chess. I can play chess (and likely beat you) and it not be gambling. If I play chess (and still likely beat you) and we bet $1 on that game we are then gambling.

    Please stop trying to fight this fight from the perspective DFS is not gambling. We need to focus on the idea grown adults can spend their time and money anyway they choose.

  • Ryazan

    • x3

      2015 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    • x2

      2015 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @AtGame7 said...

    It is gambling, that’s a fact and there is no use denying it. Our time would be better spent fighting this fight from a different angle than trying to convince the AG that it’s not gambling.

    ANYTHING can be gambling the second you risk something of value. Blackjack does not have to be gambling, it can just be a card game. If no money is wagered then blackjack is not gambling.

    DFS does not have to be gambling, you can play for fun if you want. The second you risk something of value, like money, then DFS turns into gambling.

    Yes, DFS is a game of skill, so is chess. I can play chess (and likely beat you) and it not be gambling. If I play chess (and still likely beat you) and we bet $1 on that game we are then gambling.

    Please stop trying to fight this fight from the perspective DFS is not gambling. We need to focus on the idea grown adults can spend their time and money anyway they choose.

    we dont want the idiot politicians to think of it in the wrong way. It may be a “gamble” to put $1 into a game of chess, but it is all a game of skill/investment. If I think I am the best chess player in the world, I will challenge people to play for money as a skills/investment challenge.

    The more people use the Gambling word in DFS, the more likely moronic liberal politicians will try to grab onto it. STOP USING THAT TERMINOLOGY DUMMIES

  • AveryBradley

    Of course it is gambling. So is poker. So is sports betting.

    They are also games of skill where sustainable edges can be carved out.

    I see why the sites like to avoid the G word, because online gambling in the USA mostly isn’t legal and if they did call it gambling then it wouldn’t exist anymore, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is what it is.

    Y’all see online poker legal? No? Well ask yourself why and it is probably why DFS may not be around much longer. One advantage DFS has is that the special interests (leagues/big media/TV) love DFS because it boosts fan engagement significantly. Will that be enough? We’ll see…

  • Olhausen

    @Ryazan said...

    It’s not gambling, because I do not need to gamble with money to know that I will beat any of you people who are calling it gambling. My skill > your skill. My strategy > your strategy.

    The more you call it gambling, the more these political morons are affirmed that it is indeed gambling, when in fact it is not gambling. It is as much gambling as are stock markets – end of story. I work in finance, and I see myself picking different player stocks every single day for weeks and months at a time with a strategy in mind – to make money. It is investing, with elements of luck, skill, and strategy.

    Quite honestly, the ones who continue to flat out just call it gambling are not real DFS players, they are people who dislike DFS, they are people who have lost, probably to people like me who have more skill than people like you. You can’t play DFS if it’s gambling, are people so delusional about that?? Keep your biased stupid opinions to yourself.

    I have stupid opinions too that I can share. In fact, if you look up my post history, I had a couple of bad days last year when i gave NHL DFS a shot, and I lost at it. i started calling it all luck and stupid and not skill-based. I was an idiot – I shared a stupid OPINION based on me sucking at NHL DFS. Clearly, there are players good at NHL DFS, players who love NHL and analyze NHL, and if they can win consistantly, then their skill > mine.

    Those who think it’s gambling just need to stop playing and go to your local gas station, and buy $20 of scratch tickets and gamble on that instead.

    +1

  • AveryBradley

    If DFS is a skill game and not gambling and that is the road to full legality (which I hope is true), then when do you guys expect poker and sports betting to become legal after that? Few months?

  • AtGame7

    @Ryazan said...

    we dont want the idiot politicians to think of it in the wrong way. It may be a “gamble” to put $1 into a game of chess, but it is all a game of skill/investment. If I think I am the best chess player in the world, I will challenge people to play for money as a skills/investment challenge.

    The more people use the Gambling word in DFS, the more likely moronic liberal politicians will try to grab onto it. STOP USING THAT TERMINOLOGY DUMMIES

    NVM

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