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  • tooltime

    First off, I only play dfs for fun and like playing on FD due to the roster construction and they have the best app. I have become worried that I am not playing in a fair environment. I have seen many posts about 2 or 3 people playing the same lineup. on FD I seen the same15 people play the same lineup in every 50/50 and double up everyday. Why would this be allowed? I asked FD if it was one person with 15 accounts or 15 people who buy the same line up. They said “ If a user would like to buy another users lineup on their own platform than would be their decision to make.” My problem here is 15 out of 57 lineups are the same in a double up that pays 25 spots. when they cash 14 people get robbed. The scores that pay out go from 25 to 10. I know they do not always cash and people say that you only have to beat 42 scores but they are only playing against 42 lineups, not 56 also. Its like playing a h2h. To me it is not a fair environment to put my money in to play a game that pays only 10 places out of the 25 its supposed to against 1 lineup. I’m sure FD could limit the amount of similar lineups in 1 game. The big question is why they allow it and do not see it as a problem.

  • Ericpaul

    I, like you only really play for fun. I noticed this as well on the low stakes 50/50’s ($1 and $2) I don’t know if FD can limit same lineups from multiple accounts, so I just quit playing them altogether. If I play a FD cash game, it’s the $2 big double up, but I basically have just went to the $1 bunt single entry gpp. I know that doesn’t help you. I just don’t think Fanduel can (or will) do anything about people playing identical lineups.

  • bucherpsu08

    FD or any other major site doesn’t care until the user base and/or amount of action in play everyday starts to decline. They still make their money whether there are x amount of duplicate lineups or if all of them are different.

  • TheRyanFlaherty

    You are 100% correct.
    Even while consistency beating these types of lineups during the NBA season I was contacting FanDuel and outlining why it was a major issue…One of my major points being that the optics are horrible and it potentially runs off players such as yourself.

    Unfortunately it sounds like they still don’t agree.
    It’s frustrating that they continue to ignore something that only creates negatives for DFS as a whole. Especially when considering the current DFS narrative in the media that already exists, where many non-players think it’s a scam and rigged against them to begin with. It also makes little sense to do nothing when FD is currently in a fight to legalize DFS with the main argument being that it is in fact a game of skill….if someone wants to point to a cash game where 40% of the money is won by people who did absolutely nothing but purchase someone else’s lineup it seems like it would be hard to argue that as skill…but you know, maybe it’s just my fault for looking at things beyond the surface level.

  • tooltime

    @Ericpaul said...

    I just don’t think Fanduel can (or will) do anything about people playing identical lineups

    If had known this is how they work I would have never made my first deposit. Is there any sites that do not allow this? I have fun playing dfs but I don’t have fun losing money by 1 point because of 1 lineup has 15 spots. I wouldn’t mind if it was in a multi entry game.

  • desertdanny

    what if the shared lineups end up sucking? you make up some ground.

  • tooltime

    @TheRyanFlaherty said...

    Even while consistency beating these types of lineups during the NBA season I was contacting FanDuel and outlining why it was a major issue…One of my major points being that the optics are horrible and it potentially runs off players such as yourself.

    I only play 1 to 2 games a day. I do beat these line ups a lot but most of the time if I do not cash it only because of the 15 spot train of same lineups. Not only me but the next 13 other people. So everyday on FD in every $1 &$2 50/50 / double up they offer many people are throwing money away due to 1 line up cashing. Not a good way to get new players and stay legal.

  • tooltime

    @desertdanny said...

    what if the shared lineups end up sucking? you make up some ground

    They do sometimes but hoping 1 lineup sucks everytime I play is not fun to me. I would just play heads up games.

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

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    @tooltime said...

    If had known this is how they work I would have never made my first deposit. Is there any sites that do not allow this? I have fun playing dfs but I don’t have fun losing money by 1 point because of 1 lineup has 15 spots. I wouldn’t mind if it was in a multi entry game.

    How about the times you win by 1 point because the 15 lineups are the same below you?

    I play cash games daily. I cannot tell you how many times the results happen both ways. Most of us seem to only key in on the negative though. While I’m not a fan of lineup sharing, lineup purchasing, etc.., it still does help you at times. Just keep that in mind.

  • tooltime

    @bhdevault said...

    How about the times you win by 1 point because the 15 lineups are the same below you?

    They are playing in 57 man against 42 different LUs that pay out 25 places. Everyone else is playing against 42 LUs that pays out 10 places. How is this not a negative thing. The times I won buy 1 point because of the 15 same LUs 14 other people still lost because of it. Its not just about me.

  • tgowen

    • Blogger of the Month

    I’m kind of tired of the “I’d rather have to beat one lineup to pass 15 people argument.” Often times the 15 identical lineups are coming from people who have far more time and resources than the average Joe who they are flying by on the leaderboard. It’s not as if these identical lineups are regularly being used by scrub DFS players, they are typically experienced players who know exactly what they are doing and aren’t just coming across some random free lineup on Twitter.

    So while in theory it may seem like a benefit to try and beat 1 lineup to move up 15 spots, it clearly isn’t working out that way. Yes, this is probably just the evolution of the game, but don’t make it sound like 15 people who are clearly working together (or are using a tool much smarter than what a casual player can do in 30 minutes) is somehow a good thing for the little guy.

  • zackthys

    I was unaware I could not use a websites name while expressing my frustration, but this is a modified version of what I said:

    The majority of people are 100% being shafted by this. Ive seen 24 people in a 100 man 50/50 with the same lineup. I have been tracking them all season and they win MLB 64-65% of the time. Thats the winning percentage of a professional player, which means that nearly a quarter of the field is playing a professional lineup, not counting all of the other pros playing. Good luck turning a profit with these lineup-copying donkeys playing!

  • cleanslate

    @zackthys said...

    I was unaware I could not use a websites name while expressing my frustration, but this is a modified version of what I said:

    The majority of people are 100% being shafted by this. Ive seen 24 people in a 100 man 50/50 with the same lineup. I have been tracking them all season and they win MLB 64-65% of the time. Thats the winning percentage of a professional player, which means that nearly a quarter of the field is playing a professional lineup, not counting all of the other pros playing. Good luck turning a profit with these lineup-copying donkeys playing!

    If that’s true, that then begs the question, won’t more and more players eventually use successful paid site lineups? In theory, what if instead of 15 people having an identical lineup, that number increases to 25 or 30 in a 57 man contest? What if another site with a 65% success rate also gets 15 people using their lineups somewhere down the road? Then you have 30-40 teams in a 57 man double up sharing 2 lineups?

    I’m trying to make a point here. If you just turn your head to this problem and act like it doesn’t exist, as DFS continues to grow and as the players continue to evolve the problem will eventually destroy cash games. It is naive to think that if these 15 lineups are cashing 65 percent of the time more and more people won’t seek out the source of those lineups and also pay to use it. Everyone will just lose to the rake on cash games if this worst case scenario plays out one day.

    I don’t claim to have the solution, but if the sites aren’t aware of this issue and aren’t trying to come up with a solution on their end, this will just be another example of a short sighted approach that eventually comes back to bite them in the ass. I can only hope they are taking this problem seriously, but given how badly they have mishandled many other big issues I have my doubts.

  • tooltime

    The lineups they are buying would not cash at that often if there wasn’t so many in 1 game. By cutting the player pool down while still having the same places payed out is their advantage. In the long run any lineup that has 50% more pay out spots than the field will have a higher cash rate. Everytime they cash, half of the people who would have cashed don’t cash. If you can cut down on the amount of different lineups you are facing and still have the same amount of payouts against lineups that have half the payout spots you will cash more than anyone in the game.

  • KindGuy

    In the end though, I think it balances itself out. Say for example, a lineup provider and his 29 sheep enter a 60 man 50/50. What if the shared lineup gets in 15th place. That means all 30 of them have to share the 15th-30th prize and in reality the standings for them range from 15-45 place. They all end up losing money.

    The lineup providers and their sheep roll in packs. But they’re simple to beat. Just gotta lead one into the slaughterhouse and the rest will follow.

  • tomac

    Yes but don’t you see – 35% of the time this is beneficial to you.

  • divusjulius

    • Blogger of the Month

    @tooltime (and others)the only way to defend against this sort of thing (which is not always colluding or cheating, and thus there’s no real reason for the sites to make lineup rules—and really how could a site justify telling someone, no you can’t play rizzo someone else already did) is to AVOID like the plague smaller 50/50’s, double ups, 3 mans and the like. either play in the very large one or two thousand player $2, $3 or $5 and $10 double ups that DK runs ( i dunno if FD does)…this issue will be minimized in these massive fields, and you will get something closer to the traditional cash 50/50 or double up experience. What you describe has become very very common in the smaller cash game 50/50’s doubles, 3 mans and other games of this sort…they have become killing grounds and research has shown that new, recreational, and even mid-level experience/skill players are at a disadvantage in these games, and the avg score needed to reach the cash line keeps rising. Like I said, the best defense you have is to play in the massive doubleups etc, or to play H2H. The same research shows that cashing is easier, and that, instead of playing one 5$ 30 player double up, if you play 5 1$ H2H’s you have a decent chance of cashing in 1 or two of them, even if you don’t have a stellar lineup that day.

    If you play in H2Hs and your lineup scores in the bottom quartile, then you will cash in roughly 25 percent of your contests. If, though, you are playing in some 50/50s or double-ups, then you will probably cash in none of your contests, because you will be nowhere near the cash line in contests with a slightly expanded field. So if you are the type of player who is newer to DFS and is learning, then you should probably put 100 percent of your cash-game funds toward H2Hs in order to minimize your risk. If you are an experienced player who consistently builds cash-game lineups that score in the top quartile, then you actually might want to commit the majority of your funds toward 50/50s, double-ups, and maybe even triple-ups in order to increase the percentage of contests in which you cash and to maximize the edge that you have.

    I don’t think the sites have to change this, and i think a every line up must be different rule is absurd and unenforceable; those players are not doing anything wrong (although they may be acting in a very short sighted manner), but likewise, you are not doing anything wrong by feeling uncomfortable with or not enjoying, the experience.
    i think the worst thing about this is that the recreational player has to find out about this sort of practice on their own, if at all, by searching the web or coming to a place like this. its not always people sharing lineups or colluding, often its the same optimizer or projection algos spitting out the same optimal cash roster to completely different people, sometimes it is the same screen name entering several times, and sometimes they may come from a pay service.

    in addition, expert cash game strategy has moved towards the concept of owning several to a majority of similar players with only a small number of variations in the roster, (the similar players being the slate’s chalk or the best point/dollar value).to reduce daily variece..in simplest terms the strategy is to let others (mostly recreational) players make the mistake. again, this doesn’t happen because of collusion (although that may happen in some cases) but because very experienced or expert (or players with access to the best projections or models) will identify the same best plays because they know how to do it very well, while the newer player will make a sub-optimal pick.

    this last bit is pure personal speculation, so its not directly related to your question. i’m not sure why this happens in dfs. perhaps some of these people have smaller rolls, and are relatively new at trying to make a living doing this, or have recently developed into expert players, so they need to grind out as many of these games as they can—there’s certainly nothing wrong with that….even in poker, lower rolled or newer experts need to play in the smaller buy in tables and events to maximize their hourly rate by playing in the softest games, and indeed, good game selection is a crucial skill. what i don’t understand, and would never see in poker, is a world class expert or highly successful player sitting down at a one or two dollar table—it would not be worth their time, and it would be considered dishonorable of them to do so. does it happen in dfs simply because all it takes is a click of a mouse (no loss of time), or because of the anonymous nature of screen names (no loss of face). or maybe they have to put in the volume to reach the long run and get the law of big numbers on their side, or maybe they are just greedy. in any case, i don’t think its in their best interest b/c it will kill the ecosystem of the game.

  • ThatStunna

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    @divusjulius said...

    What you describe has become very very common in the smaller cash game 50/50’s doubles, 3 mans and other games of this sort…

    If you’re up against dupe lineups in 3 mans, you have a huge advantage and you should seek those pairs of people out. Your best defense against dupe lineups is to find top-heavy contests. 50-50s and double ups are unbeatable if enough people play a max expectation lineup, while something like a quintuple up is still beatable. I’ve seen people 25x in 100 person leagues where they just stack underdogs; I don’t know how many of them are profitable, but you don’t have to 25x that often to make a profit.

    And yes, 50-50s and double ups suck. This is not news; they use a boring format that isn’t fun and only appeals to grinders. Why any casual player does them is beyond me. Head to heads are at least fun to some degree.

    Another option sites could have is to have a sliding scale payout, so dupes are penalized. A head to head matrix is one example of this.

  • zackthys

    @ThatStunna said...

    Another option sites could have is to have a sliding scale payout, so dupes are penalized. A head to head matrix is one example of this.

    I love this. I feel like if the websites phased out the 50/50’s for the head to head matrix format it would decrease the donkey lineup-copiers edge and reduce the amount of intentional duplicate lineups. Plus eliminate a lot of variance for everybody.

  • divusjulius

    • Blogger of the Month

    its not a bad idea

  • emitnulB

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    @tooltime said...

    They do sometimes but hoping 1 lineup sucks everytime I play is not fun to me. I would just play heads up games.

    You should just play top heavy payout structures if this really bothers you. Identical lineups are at a huge disadvantage in say a winner take all 3 man game because you only have to beat one lineup to triple up. 50/50’s are literally the only game type where you aren’t really punished for having the same lineup as someone else. Just don’t play that game type and this issue won’t exist for you.

  • marcreinhart

    @divusjulius said...

    what i don’t understand, and would never see in poker, is a world class expert or highly successful player sitting down at a one or two dollar table—it would not be worth their time, and it would be considered dishonorable of them to do so. does it happen in dfs simply because all it takes is a click of a mouse (no loss of time), or because of the anonymous nature of screen names (no loss of face). or maybe they have to put in the volume to reach the long run and get the law of big numbers on their side, or maybe they are just greedy. in any case, i don’t think its in their best interest b/c it will kill the ecosystem of the game.

    In DFS it requires no further effort on the player’s part to enter 1000 different games as it does 100, so they can put their entries in everything. In online poker, you can run many tables at once, but at least there is some limit that people can do. In actual live table poker, clearly you can only be at 1 table at a time, so they will always sit at high dollar tables. If DFS sites were to limit the number of entries that any 1 player can make on a slate, that would force pros to focus their efforts on the entries with the ROI. Assuming the limit were low enough it would effectively force the pros out of 1, 2, and 3 dollar entries. Of course this will never happen because the sites need the pros money to live. Especially right now with all of the money they are spending on the legal front.

  • Prisoncoptodd

    How about build a solid line up and win and all of this dumb negative b.s. won’t even exist you got to be dumb to pay for a line up build your own not only do u win but it’s way more satisfying because of the hard work u put in

  • Olhausen

    @Prisoncoptodd said...

    How about build a solid line up and win

    This. To many threads of people complaining about why they can’t win. I see so many threads about how people can’t win cash games because of lineup selling. And how they can’t win Gpp’s because the pros put in hundreds of lineup’s. This is nonsense because I’m a 5-10 lineup a night person and I’ve had plenty of success in big Gpp’s. I don’t care what anyone else is doing and I only worry about myself and the payout structure of the contest I’m in.

  • Prisoncoptodd

    @ Olhausen said

    This. To many threads of people complaining about why they can’t win. I see so many threads about how people can’t win cash games because of lineup selling. And how they can’t win Gpp’s because the pros put in hundreds of lineup’s. This is nonsense because I’m a 5-10 lineup a night person and I’ve had plenty of success in big Gpp’s. I don’t care what anyone else is doing and I only worry about myself and the payout structure of the contest I’m in.

    Amen can’t agree with you more what it comes down to is worry about yourself be the best you can be find your resources believe in yourself trust other people on podcast or websites and whoop ass who cares about other people’s lineups

  • tgowen

    • Blogger of the Month

    @Olhausen said...

    This. To many threads of people complaining about why they can’t win. I see so many threads about how people can’t win cash games because of lineup selling. And how they can’t win Gpp’s because the pros put in hundreds of lineup’s. This is nonsense because I’m a 5-10 lineup a night person and I’ve had plenty of success in big Gpp’s. I don’t care what anyone else is doing and I only worry about myself and the payout structure of the contest I’m in.

    Just because it may not be a popular opinion, does not mean those who share it can’t voice it. People voice their opinions daily on here regarding a wide range of topics, some are more popular than others, and some help lead to change. There’s nothing wrong with people bringing up this as a concern.

    I play maybe $1 a day in DFS. My problem with lineup sharing and purchasing of lineups is that in my mind it does take away from the competition that makes DFS so appealing to me. It’s no secret that free season long leagues are a joke. Halfway through the season you are lucky to have 50% of the players still participating. Nobody likes to lose when money is on the line, not even a dollar. When I enter a $1 DFS contest (typically a 50/50, H2H, or Triple Up) I want to fee like it is “Me vs You.” When it is clear that this isn’t always the case, it’s frustrating. I have no desire to play in a DFS contest where I am going up against a computer or a group of people trying to run a train in a single entry contest. That’s not what competition looks like to me.

    I have no grand dreams of winning hundreds or thousands of dollars. All I want is to be able to spend a few minutes creating a lineup, entering a contest, and then seeing how I do against other players doing the same thing. I am well aware there are other players out there who on their own will often times destroy me because they have 4-5 hours to create their lineup, where I have maybe 30 minutes throughout the day. To me, that is simply part of the game. However, playing against a lineup purchased online doesn’t get me excited at all, and playing against a group that is basically multi-entering in a single entry is nothing but a joke.

    Do I expect anything to change? Nope. However, I’m not the kind of person who expects every concern I have to lead to change. That doesn’t mean it can’t be discussed though.

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