MAIN FORUM

Comments

  • robert

    Hi,

    I have a program that will spit out up to 1000 lineups, using my projections and any players I tell it to lock in. I would like to join some of the big tourneys with several hundred lineups. The problem is that the teams dont put their final lineups out till about and hour or 2 before the game, so once i finalize my projections and have my program spit out the hundreds of lineups I want to use, it just becomes impossible to manually enter them in time.

    I was wondering if it would be ok to use a script that can take the lineups from my projection model and automatically enter them into my DK contests? Im just not sure if this is allowed as it definitely would give me an advantage over players multi entering contest manually. I just want to make sure I wouldnt be breaking any rules.

    Also if using a script is against the rules would it be ok for me to hire a few people for the hour or 2 before lineup lock and and have them log into my account from several different computers and manually enter the contests for me? Is it even possible to be logged in from different locations entering lineups and contests at the same time? Or is that against the rules? Is it just one person per account?

    Thanks

    Hey Bob,

    I understand it is tedious and difficult to enter many lineups with little time to go, but we do not allow scripts on the site as it may disrupt the site and you would risk being restricted from DraftKings as consequence. Further, you are correct, it is one person per account and you cannot have multiple people entering lineups for you or operating your account.

    I know this is not ideal but I would suggest inputting the projected starters as you can normally figure out the likely lineup. You can then start entering your lineups at the beginning of the day and then when lineups release, you can make adjustments as necessary.

    Best,

    David

    Customer Experience Associate
    DraftKings Inc

    So it looks like anyone using a script or a team of people to enter lineups is violating the rules and a subject to having their account restricted.

    Likely violators

    1. Maxdulary – routinely enters 300-1000 unique lineups a night. Admitted in interview that he has some “help” with his lineups but wanted to keep what it was to himself

    Emac posted in another thread “Shhhhh, don’t tell anyone, however some people may have an offshore VA (virtual assistant) to help with some of the heavy lifting.” So id imagine many of the big massive multi-entering players have been using some kind of help, either computerized help, or extra people working on their account.

    So who else would make this list?

  • huitcinq

    @slicedbread said...

    and until these major sites go public, they need massive multi-entry players and will turn a blind eye because it helps increase the valuation of the company (sites able to market and run out larger scale tournaments), those at the top of the food chain and mid-level employees with stock shares haven’t made any “real” money until publication, at some point the bottom may drop out but not before many people get very rich, symbiosis within economics

    edit: despite the uproar among this fractioned community, there wont be any changes because it’s not the profitable move; change only occurs when your hand is forced financially (in this case it will take competitors siphoning off market share)…

    this is wrong by the way

    nothing will hurt a company’s valuation more than unfair practices and complaints from customers to regulators that these companies are letting certain people cheat

    maxdalury’s entries are a drop in the bucket with regards to DK’s valuation right now

  • huitcinq

    Right now, for the big sites, nothing is more important than the integrity of the game.

    Getting “caught” allowing players to cheat other players out of money is the one of the single biggest risks to their business as it will threaten the entire market they are creating.

    And yes, it is cheating. There is an explicit rule stating that this is not allowed, and if it is happening, it is cheating.

    Which frankly makes this all the more puzzling. I mean, you really think Disney is worried about losing Max’s rake? They’re here to to turn DK from a $1 billion business into a $10 billion business. They shouldn’t risk that for his rake.

    Sites need to either update their TOS to explicitly allow automated contest entries or get their **** together now and bring the hammer down.

  • slicedbread

    @huitcinq said...

    this is wrong by the way

    nothing will hurt a company’s valuation more than unfair practices and complaints from customers to regulators that these companies are letting certain people cheat

    maxdalury’s entries are a drop in the bucket with regards to DK’s valuation right now

    i completely understand this, apparently my write up is being completely taken out of context;

    in no way shape or form am i arguing against unfair business practices being a legitimate valuation determinator. i’m just pointing out that money talks and the their current business model is full steam ahead despite a small small fraction of people’s angst; it’s like a buried comment on reddit

    i mean massive multi entry at large, not one person, surely you understood the reference

  • slicedbread

    we’re all on the same side, i may just be a tad more apathetic and cynical when it comes to big business vs. the little man, a byproduct of capitalism; right now their behavior is monopolistic and akin to anti-competitive practices, i agree that they’ll have to clean it up somewhat to sustain in future markets though

  • qnova34

    • 929

      RG Overall Ranking

    Can we all just agree to disagree on whether or not the “pitchforks” should be brought out about this? At the end of the day sites like DK and FD have a responsibility to address these issues regardless of whether or not there is unjustified outrage over stuff like this. If they are ignoring that responsibility because people are making shitposts then moderators should just delete said posts, or remove users posting privileges. The rest of us are looking for some concrete answers from the sites.

  • huitcinq

    I have always taken the side of the sites in any of the other “pitchfork” topics.

    In this case though, we’re talking about hard evidence of other players cheating. So it’s warranted. (I don’t think there is any proof that Maxdalury himself is cheating, frankly I doubt he is, but in the case of the FD topic it was 100% obvious that those two users were using scripts to pick up H2H games)

    So yes it would be nice to just have some transparency from the sites, even if it’s just a generic “these users were warned, if we detect their script again they will be banned” or “we always monitor server pings and IP locations for signs of suspicious activity and investigate if anything is flagged” or anything of the sort.

  • colinwdrew

    • 301

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2020 DraftKings FHWC Champion

    • 2018 DraftKings FHWC Finalist

    I can enter 800 identical lineups in less than a minute from the lineups page. I can edit lineups at a rate of 2 per minute or even faster when I’m focused on it. It took me about 2 hours to enter 300 pga lineups the other week once I sat down to do it. It would take me around 6-7 hours to create 800 unique lineups. If a player got scratched, I could use global player swap.

    I have no idea what max is or isn’t doing but I think it’s possible to do manually with solid work ethic given no full-time job. It would be a massive pain in the ass though and not only possible but probable that he would try to find a way to remove that burden.

    I think it is fair to ask and surface these questions. I also think the sites care deeply about their image and maintaining the casual player. Hell, they’ve capped MillyMaker at 500 entries.

    Keep surfacing opinions and concerns and hopefully they’ll continue to get addressed. I think it is important to keep things in check. Just try to realize there are a few different ways you can look at things.

  • huitcinq

    @colinwdrew said...

    I have no idea what max is or isn’t doing but I think it’s possible to do manually with solid work ethic given no full-time job. It would be a massive pain in the ass though and not only possible but probable that he would try to find a way to remove that burden.

    Same here, I did some quick math on it as well and came to the conclusion that it’s entirely doable.

  • glennantz

    I would think FD and DK would be able to tell if there site was being hacked by someone. If everyone keeps playing these contest, the sites have no reason to not continue with them. If everyone stopped playing and only entered into single entry contest, I bet there would all of a sudden be more of them. Supply and demand. Its like voting for the president, we all only have one vote, but put together we make the rules.

  • digglahhh

    1. I would be extremely surprised if the person who read and responded to your inquiry took this as an actual question – it is extremely obvious that you were trying to out specific accounts via this note.

    2. If you ask a cop whether jaywalking is illegal, he/she will have to tell you it is. If you ask them, off the record, whether they care about it and feel compelled to enforce that law, that’s a different story.

    3. All this talk about unfair business practices bringing consumer outrage is sensible in theory, but essentially irrelevant in practice. Who are the people who are outraged at this? A couple of dozen vocal participants in a niche forum within an already niche industry? In the grand scheme of things, nobody cares! The average casual DFS player entering one LU a few times a week doesn’t think about these things, and probably wouldn’t even have an opinion if he/she did.

    4. IMO, the reason why nobody cares – for the most part, myself included – is because this is somethng that should be allowed anyway. What sort of archaic principle is it that a business that is solely online and based on a virtual experience requires manual submissions of entry? Why shouldn’t you be able to use a script?

    5. What these sites should do is change their TOS, develop their own technologies for automated mass entry and sell them to users as a premium service. People are going to use these things. People should be allowed to use these things. So, turn that into a revenue generator above board instead of a point of contention.

    6. Not to be trite but, haters gonna hate. I would say that most of the ire around this is not one of morality. We are gamblers – gamblers look for edges around the system and advantages and loopholes to exploit. I would posit that if most of you had the technology to auto-mass enter and the bankroll to do so, you would. The fact that you don’t have either or both the script and the bankroll is what is really driving the pitchforks. ….It’s not that some advantage exists, it’s that some advantage that I personally don’t have the resource to take advantage of exists.

  • Putz

    @colinwdrew said...

    I can enter 800 identical lineups in less than a minute from the lineups page. I can edit lineups at a rate of 2 per minute or even faster when I’m focused on it. It took me about 2 hours to enter 300 pga lineups the other week once I sat down to do it. It would take me around 6-7 hours to create 800 unique lineups. If a player got scratched, I could use global player swap.

    I have no idea what max is or isn’t doing but I think it’s possible to do manually with solid work ethic given no full-time job. It would be a massive pain in the ass though and not only possible but probable that he would try to find a way to remove that burden.

    I think it is fair to ask and surface these questions. I also think the sites care deeply about their image and maintaining the casual player. Hell, they’ve capped MillyMaker at 500 entries.

    Keep surfacing opinions and concerns and hopefully they’ll continue to get addressed. I think it is important to keep things in check. Just try to realize there are a few different ways you can look at things.

    Scale that to everyday. PGA is once per week, like NFL, and doable. You also failed to mention that players admitted to either having others input lineups for them, or using automated approaches.

  • jimmyrad

    @qnova34 said...

    Can we all just agree to disagree on whether or not the “pitchforks” should be brought out about this? At the end of the day sites like DK and FD have a responsibility to address these issues regardless of whether or not there is unjustified outrage over stuff like this. If they are ignoring that responsibility because people are making shitposts then moderators should just delete said posts, or remove users posting privileges. The rest of us are looking for some concrete answers from the sites.

    Excellent post, thank you.

  • dude_abides7

    @digglahhh said...

    4. IMO, the reason why nobody cares – for the most part, myself included – is because this is somethng that should be allowed anyway. What sort of archaic principle is it that a business that is solely online and based on a virtual experience requires manual submissions of entry? Why shouldn’t you be able to use a script?

    Be that as it may, at this CURRENT MOMENT, it is their stated and expressed policy that these tactics are in violation of their TOS. Whether or not you (we) feel this to be archaic is irrelevant and not germane to the primary issue here. They need to enforce their stated policy……period.

  • digglahhh

    @dude_abides7 said...

    Be that as it may, at this CURRENT MOMENT, it is their stated and expressed policy that these tactics are in violation of their TOS. Whether or not you (we) feel this to be archaic is irrelevant and not germane to the primary issue here. They need to enforce their stated policy……period.

    It is more likely and sensible to CHANGE their current policy. That’s my point.

  • dude_abides7

    @Putz said...

    Scale that to everyday. PGA is once per week, like NFL, and doable. You also failed to mention that players admitted to either having others input lineups for them, or using automated approaches.

    Bingo. ^

    Another fact to consider is that the player pool for PGA is posted days in advance of the contest. For MLB, player evaluations cannot be made and LU’s entered until the contest is posted in the lobby and the player salaries set. This greatly lessens the time window one has to create mass LU’s in excess of 500, etc.

  • huitcinq

    @digglahhh said...

    4. IMO, the reason why nobody cares – for the most part, myself included – is because this is somethng that should be allowed anyway. What sort of archaic principle is it that a business that is solely online and based on a virtual experience requires manual submissions of entry? Why shouldn’t you be able to use a script?

    I have no objection to this. What’s at stake here is maintaining a level playing field. As long as its against their TOS to automate entries, it is cheating to do so.

  • huitcinq

    @digglahhh said...

    I would posit that if most of you had the technology to auto-mass enter and the bankroll to do so, you would. The fact that you don’t have either or both the script and the bankroll is what is really driving the pitchforks.

    This however, I disagree with.

    I have algorithms that generate tons of lineups in no time. I have a relatively large bankroll. I could easily pay a friend of mine to write me a script to automate entries or scoop fish in H2H games.

    However, I am not personally comfortable with cheating and risking a ban. “I am willing to cheat and you are not” should not be an edge.

  • digglahhh

    @digglahhh said...

    It is more likely and sensible to CHANGE their current policy. That’s my point.

    Sorry, and to expand on this, I think you guys might be on the road to unintended consequences and wind up with a state of things worse for you than it is now.

    You have to ask yourself what the root of your contention is. Do you not want auto-mass entry at all? Or, do you want equal access to auto-mass entry?

    It is in their interest to allow people to enter as many times as they want. So, if they see that there’s a market for mass auto entries services, they will also realize that it is in their interest to provide them and profit from them. …I actually think the most likely outcome of raising this issue is a change of their policies that will result in MORE mass auto entry services and users.

    So, if you’re against it and think it’s an advantage, but don’t have the bankroll to ever really take advantage of it anyway, I think that putting this on their radar will actually negatively impact you in the long run, counterintuitive as it may sound. If the place you are coming from is simply that everybody should have access to the same tools, regardless of whether you personally use or will use them, then keep knocking at the door.

    But, I think that if you force them to “address” this, you’re going to get the opposite of the outcome that you have in mind.

  • dude_abides7

    @digglahhh said...

    It is more likely and sensible to CHANGE their current policy. That’s my point.

    I agree, it would probably make sense to change these policies to something more realistically enforceable. That said, until that happens FD and DK have a legal (not to mention ethical) responsibility to enforce their TOS in a manner that leaves no “gray” area to be exploited.

    When you have DFS players admitting to having “help” with LU’s and users getting caught scripting only to be reactivated hours later…well, maybe then you can understand the principle issue that is being tabled and the failure of these industry leaders (to date) to address the issue with transparency and haste.

  • dude_abides7

    @digglahhh said...

    You have to ask yourself what the root of your contention is. Do you not want auto-mass entry at all? Or, do you want equal access to auto-mass entry?

    I can’t speak for everyone, but I personally desire that the stated rules should be followed and enforced. Nothing more, nothing less.

  • digglahhh

    @huitcinq said...

    This however, I disagree with.

    I have algorithms that generate tons of lineups in no time. I have a relatively large bankroll. I could easily pay a friend of mine to write me a script to automate entries or scoop fish in H2H games.

    However, I am not personally comfortable with cheating and risking a ban. “I am willing to cheat and you are not” should not be an edge.

    You’re say yourself that you are not comfortable with “cheating” because you are not comfortable with risking a ban. So, you don’t want to risk forcing the spout more widely open because you think that creates the risk of having the spout shut off for you totally.

    That’s a risk assesment you’ve made. I understand that, though I wouldn’t worry about it myself. But, that’s not a moral objection to it, as many people are implying by their posts.

    “I am willing to cheat and you are not” however is an edge is essentially every endeavor in the world, including the ones on which DFS is based. So, while that sounds great, in a competitive endeavor it will never be realistic. And, ultimately, they will change the rules so that doing the specific thing that is “cheating” today will no longer be considered cheating tomorrow.

  • dfskehd

    I didn’t want to add to this conversation or the similar one about scooping lineups, because I don’t think you’ll like what I have to say.

    Even if the big DFS sites used expensive fraud detection services or built bot detection monitoring tools, automated entry is going to continue.

    I use a script to pull all the contests in the lobby and their entrants to help determine what to enter. I almost guarantee FD and DK can’t identify it…because I know what I’m doing. My tool looks human.

    These scrubs caught on FD scooping at break neck speeds aren’t trying to blend in, but if they did, if they SLOW DOWN (and spoof their User Agent) it’s going to be nearly impossible to detect.

    The solution here is NOT to ban bots because they will always be one step ahead. The solution is to have limits on entries, which already exist.

    The limit on the number of contests I enter isn’t the time it takes to do so, its the money I’m willing to spend. If the same is not true for yourself, look into automating your behavior, but do so responsibly.

  • lilprog

    • Blogger of the Month

    Ive done 300 PGA lineups, 300 NFL lineups and recently over 400 MLB lineups in just under 3.5 hrs… If I had the money to do 800 lineups I know I could… ESP when generally your making closer to 50 lineups and then tweaking it 750 times… Why is innocent until proven guilty not valid here… The headhunting needs to stop…

  • digglahhh

    @dude_abides7 said...

    I can’t speak for everyone, but I personally desire that the stated rules should be followed and enforced. Nothing more, nothing less.

    I don’t argue with this.

    However, my point once again is that you have to ask yourself what you actually want.

    There’s nothing sacrosanct about the “rules” – they can all change tomorrow. And, by raising this issue, you might wind up with them enforcing the existing rules more strictly, which would be a win. But, more likely, you will prompt them to re-think the rules and realize the current rules are not in their own interest, and change them to allow the very thing people are complaining about. And, for many, I think that would be a loss.

    I don’t personally care about auto mass entry – they can have it, not have it, it can be against the rules and people can do it anyway – all of these scenarios are fine by me. So, I don’t really have a side in this argument. My posts are simply to point out that people should think about what they want before deciding whether to make an issue out of this.

    That is speaking practically – not legally or ethically or anything else.

  • Yukerboy

    • Blogger of the Month

    Rules Are Only Good If They Are Enforceable. You Are Free To Violate The TOS Any Way You See Fit.

  • X Unread Thread
  • X Thread with New Replies*
  • *Jumps to your first unread reply

Subforum Index

RotoGrinders.com is the home of the daily fantasy sports community. Our content, rankings, member blogs, promotions and forum discussion all cater to the players that like to create a new fantasy team every day of the week.

If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling 1-800-GAMBLER (1-800-426-2537) (IL). Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER (NJ/WV/PA/MI), 1-800-9-WITH-IT (IN), 1-800-522-4700 (CO), 1-800-BETS OFF (IA), 1-888-532-3500 (VA) or call/text TN REDLINE 1-800-889-9789 (TN).