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  • BurrTheBaddestB

    I know that I am undoubtedly beating a dead horse here with the creation of this new thread, but I gotta get something off of this massive chest ‘o mine that is beginning to grind at my inner “bitch”.

    This season – more so than ever before – pros, so-called “gurus”, and yes, even some decent-sized “sharks” seem to be flooding the “$250 NBA Mini Swat” GPP’s over on FanDuel. Some of them are very recognizable names in the DFS game (as well as being members of this site to boot). With such large amounts of money already won over time and seemingly limitless bankrolls at their disposal, this is as unsettling to me as it is humorous.

    Why are they even wasting their time (and mine) and why do they also seem to be seeking out each and every empty or unfilled “novice” and/or “small fish” opportunity that is possible nowadays?

    Is it an ego thing?

    Is it some kind of power play to remind everyone that you’re going to have to go through them no matter where you may try to play and no matter what amount that you’re willing to wager?

    There has got to be some underlying reason(s) as to how and why this is more prevalent now than during any other season/sport that I’ve noticed to date. If not for any of the aforementioned ones that I just questioned above, though, certainly for a different one…right?

    Any further thoughts and comments on this new(ish) (and absolutely pathetic) trend that I’ve noticed is welcomed and encouraged, gang. Thanks!

  • KindGuy

    DFS isn’t a right? It doesn’t need to saved. If it all comes crashing down one day because of these pros then so be it. People will eventually move on and find other ways to make money. But for now, there is nothing indicating the demise of DFS that you seem to indictate is on its way. All the bad publicity has been a result of poor PR by the sites not the players. Get a grip.

  • Lathum

    @elementasrat said...

    DFS isn’t a right? It doesn’t need to saved. If it all comes crashing down one day because of these pros then so be it. People will eventually move on and find other ways to make money. But for now, there is nothing indicating the demise of DFS that you seem to indictate is on its way. All the bad publicity has been a result of poor PR by the sites not the players. Get a grip.

    The same has been said about many, many, many dying industries.

    The sites need to think long term, and there is a finite number of players. Once they dry up there will be a downward spiral and quick. The sites do need to find a way for the average joe to sustain a bankroll, or at the very least project an image of competitiveness. I don’t play DFS to make money, I play it for fun and to get a good sweat every once in a while. If I go 4-5 days in a row of clunkers, I start to question my motivation, and I am someone who has played from the beginning, plus have a poker background so I get the concept of swings, sample sizes, etc…and am fortunate that money is zero issue to me ( wife is a VP of a major company you have all heard of), so the losses don’t sting.

    Now imagine you are a new player, who doesn’t have a ton of disposable income, but wants to try it out and deposits $50. They lose it without even being competitive and are done in 5 days. The likelihood they deposit again is pretty low. They will just say screw it, I’m going to the movies next time.

  • idontluvdemhos

    I’m pretty broke right now and haven’t been entering the quarter arcade. looked at my stats from last year and the quarter arcade made me a month’s rent. Thanks OP for reminding me to enter it from now on.

  • Boscoman

    I think the fundamental question here is could the industry survive without the whales maxing out entries in practically every contest? If the answer is yes then why wouldn’t the sites want to limit the percentage of total entries any one person could have? It would then make it less profitible for the whales to mass enter contests as their odds of winining the top prizes would be diminished. Example, I played a $400 entry NBA tournament with one entry that I won from a sattelite. I went through and looked at every single player and counted up their entries. The top players were maxed out at 50 entries apiece. $20K invested in a single tournament. I then counted the winings of several, and to no surprise they still made money. What I have found is that the non Pro/Whales tend to win (First) more often than the Whales, because they use unconventional lineups and get lucky. However, the Whales win more often due to the number of entries. I would like to know if the sites are kicking back a percentage of losses to the whales? If that is the case then I have a real problem with the system.

  • britdevine

    • 2014 StarStreet MLB Playboy Mansion Finalist

    Fanduel upping the 250 limit per slate to 500 is doing nothing to help the ecosystem

  • depalma13

    The sites can stop this tomorrow by blocking people at certain entry fee levels based on profit.

    They won’t do it, so the sharks will just devour anyone who tries to play and their minions will tell you to build better lineups.

  • BmoreClutch

    @depalma13 said...

    The sites can stop this tomorrow by blocking people at certain entry fee levels based on profit.

    They won’t do it, so the sharks will just devour anyone who tries to play and their minions will tell you to build better lineups.

    And those minions are the same players that the sharks are feasting on. They’re just too stupid to realize it, or just terrified of losing DFS.

    These sites could care less about us casual/lower stakes players. The sharks mass entering contests is what keeps these sites running.

  • mabrla

    @Heterodox said...

    It’s the fact that a bunch of them started new tout sites, and the smaller contests are easier to win simply owing to field size, so they load up on them in order to tweet screenshots of their wins.

    If you follow any of these people on Twitter, you understand this. Sure, pros play in small stakes contests, because there’s no opportunity cost to it and money’s money. But if you’re noticing an uptick in the number of recognizable names in the smaller, secondary contests, that’s why.

    As an aside, DFS Twitter might be the worst thing this game has inflicted on the world. I feel compelled to follow, rightly or wrongly, because I don’t want to be out of touch with whatever direction this thing is going in, but it’s a hellscape, populated by lame asses with the laziest, most generic shtick – so bad it’s practically an insult, with stereotypical chest-pounding touts, and people who feel the need to tweet generic commentary and updates, despite the fact that everyone’s watching, everyone’s following the beat writers (who do the same), and they’re adding nothing to the experience, saying nothing that is even remotely interesting or entertaining. And they all seem to forget that they are fantasy players, not GMs, and that teams are not run to maximize the number of fantasy points players produce. Not one of them has ever had a legitimate sports take, outside the context of fantasy, yet they all try. OK. End of rant.

  • wolfjb1

    @Boscoman said...

    I would like to know if the sites are kicking back a percentage of losses to the whales?

    This would be pretty egregious.

  • tvsfrink

    @BurrTheBaddestB said...

    I won well over $2.5k+ during my first couple of days playing in them and got awarded the “Experienced Player” badge for having “$2.5k+ won across 6+ contests”. In doing so, they booted me out of those rather quickly, leaving me to seek out a similar situation with a (somewhat) level playing field on “the other side”.

    Anyone who can win $2500 in a few days is either extremely lucky or extremely not a beginner anymore.

  • tvsfrink

    @SelfCharmer said...

    If I told you that I had a game which could make you money playing and the format was very simple:

    There are 2 buttons:

    1. Button 1 credits your bank account with $5
    2. Button 2 credits your bank account with 30 cents

    Rules:
    You can press any button as many times as you like.
    There are only 100 clicks for button 1 & 200 clicks for button 2 available every 24 hours

    Do you think you would only click button 1?

    If you push this button I’ll give you a million dollars but someone somewhere will die. You have 24 hours to decide. At the end of that time, if you have not decided, I will reclaim the box and it will be reprogrammed for someone else.

  • MrFantasy

    @BurrTheBaddestB said...

    With such large amounts of money already won over time and seemingly limitless bankrolls at their disposal, this is as unsettling to me as it is humorous.

    You are overestimating the amount of money a lot of “recognizable” players are winning. It’s way harder to get rich in DFS than it ever was in online poker. Margins are very small nowadays.

  • RangerC

    @MrFantasy said...

    You are overestimating the amount of money a lot of “recognizable” players are winning. It’s way harder to get rich in DFS than it ever was in online poker. Margins are very small nowadays.

    WAAAY harder. I sucked at online poker (zero tilt control) and still made around 3K a month (usually) during the highest times of the boom (thanks Crypto bonuses) playing maybe 20 hours a week. Now that all the smaller sites (which were much easier to win at thanks to overlay / bonuses) are gone it simply isn’t realistic for anyone without a huge bankroll (who can grind those small margins) to do anything except try to break even while hoping to hit a lottery ticket GPP.

  • BmoreClutch

    Even the $1 cash games aren’t safe anymore. The 73rd ranked hoop2014 is in all my $1 50/50’s on FD. I’ve noticed him in a bunch of $1 50/50’s over the past few weeks. Why is a guy like that slumming it in the lowest entry cash game?

  • TheRyanFlaherty

    @wolfjb1 said...

    This would be pretty egregious.

    They’ve given them plenty of perks and experiences…this conversation made me think of this article. And if anyone wants to read, be warned it’s lengthy due to the fact that it is substantive and actual investigative journalism…

    http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/17374929/otl-investigates-implosion-daily-fantasy-sports-leaders-draftkings-fanduel

    I’d guess that circulated on here when it came out, but I only found it recently.
    I had been listening to a gaming podcast and someone bought up the DFS boom and the response was “Is Daily Fantasy still a thing?” which led me to search for some articles and opinions outside of the DFS bubble.
    Because from my perspective this has been the worst I’ve seen the industry in the 3 years I’ve been playing…I’ve discussed my thoughts at length in other threads, so I won’t do that again…Figured I’d post that article, and sum up my thoughts with this….If you look at the actions by everyone involved it does not appear that DFS has a bright future. When everyone is taking everything they can today with little thought of tomorrow, it tells me they don’t think there is much of a tomorrow.

  • anilprao88

    • 16

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #1

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • 2018 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    Draftkings is running a 147,000 entry $4 contest 2/3 of the way through the season on a three game slate tomorrow. The $ buyin to that type of contest has gone up relative to last year, max entry limits are lower and the contests are still filling with twice the amount of entries relative to last year. I think the industry is doing fine. People keep complaining about how all the casual players are leaving, but I don’t see any evidence to suggest that is the case yet.

  • joonyari22

    • Blogger of the Month

    Honest question, not trolling…Do threads like this ever start on a winning night?

  • CJtheGrump

    I understand the frustration. I would be in favor of a per-user total entry cap per day, or at least, per slate.

    I suppose we the general DFS population, should insist on the single-entry/3 entry contests and force growth to happen there.

    When I play double ups, I don’t play the multi-entry contests as a general rule.

  • bigstanny21

    I totally understand the point the OP was making…that winning such a small amount of money when your bankroll is already so obviously large is pretty irrelevant and it amounts to basic greed…I attempt to win a large prize on a daily basis and I know if I ever did win and was able to significantly increase my bankroll to those levels, I would never bother with the super low stakes….however, not everyone is me and I can see the other side of it as well…if some people can win a dollar, they want that dollar, because they see it as dollars adding up and eventually making a difference…I get it…sucks, I hate it and I wish they would stop, but I totally get it…then again, I guess I could be considered greedy, too, since I chase the big payouts and don’t even bother with the low stakes and I’m broke af hahahahaha

  • dude_abides7

    @Garrincha67 said...

    Agreed we live in a very self serving and self centered world. DFS is no exception, I just can not stand the hypocrisy and double dealing you see both from the platforms & some of their customers.

    Honestly, is anyone really surprised that an industry borne of the remnants of the online poker world would be operated this way?

    Look how quickly we have gone from abhorring the the idea of “regulation” to openly embracing it and basically begging for it. (And still not getting it btw)

    I’m gonna cut the OP in on a little secret. The sites don’t care about you. They don’t care whether you are happy or if you are sad. They don’t care whether you think there is an even playing field or not. Gone are the days when they even TRY to present an optic that they want to be a fun place for all. They care about one thing: money. And they will continue to cater to the groups and individuals that create the most of it for them. That’s it. That’s all.

    The solution is simple. You should stop playing and find another hobby. If any of this shit was ever going to change, we would have seen evidence of it by now. The only evidence I see is that things are getting worse for the casual or low volume player.

    To summarize, If you are not doing this for a living or if this medium is no longer “fun” for you then you should quit. There is no pot of gold for you mate. There never was. The only reason the casual player should stick around is because they have FUN playing DFS. If that is no longer the case then they should cut their lines and move on. Trust me…it is in your best interest, both financially and mentally.

    Sorry for the tough love here friend, but DFS is dead and the quicker some of you realize it, the better.

  • dude_abides7

    @whateverworks_187 said...

    This should be a pretty easy thing to fix. The blame belongs on the sites. Not the players.

    #1 – I think its a little silly for the really high rollers to enter anything under $3. MANY of them don’t (SaahilSud for example).

    #2 – The cash lines for low stake tournaments is consistently lower then high stakes. Making them more ROI+ thus, it makes financial sense to enter them. You’ll say its only $1 entry… Sure… Now multiply that by 150 contests, and it adds up.

    #3 – Sites like FD/DK should have more new player tournaments. And, should change what they define as an “experienced player”… Need better tiers, because basically anybody that plays regularly has all the purple star rank on FD.

    #4 – FD has done a good job limiting the # of entries at a given price point per/slate. This # could be made even smaller in theory. But, real solution is more beginner (or even intermediate tourneys.)

    #5 – Another simple solution would be have tourneys for players who have lifetime winners lower then a given total. Perhaps $10,000 or $25,000… That would weed out A LOT of players, but would leave space for casual players that bet $10-$30 per day.

    Lastly, its important to have places for lower stakes events that don’t feature high rollers, because DFS is an ecosystem. If new players lose to much, they don’t reinvest. Obviously, people will argue that its a right of passage, but without an influx of new players it will eventually be nothing but sharks, and the ROI will go down for everybody. The counter argument that must also be considered is to many beginner tournaments leaves nothing but experienced players playing each other in bigger events, and makes it harder to be have a good EV. This is already the case in NBA where the player quality is higher then EVER. Somebody gets hurt 10 minutes before tip, and it’s safe to ownership of said player will be under 5%… Injury happened at 6:50pm a few years ago, ownership could still be in the 30% range, and everybody good would celebrate. This just doesn’t happen anymore.

    These are all great concepts. Thanks for sharing.

    Now understand that none of this ^ will ever happen. Then move on.

  • dude_abides7

    @BmoreClutch said...

    And those minions are the same players that the sharks are feasting on. They’re just too stupid to realize it, or just terrified of losing DFS.

    These sites could care less about us casual/lower stakes players. The sharks mass entering contests is what keeps these sites running.

    A man with his eyes open can see many things.

    This is and has always been the case. The quicker everyone realizes this, the better.

  • KillaChap

    @BmoreClutch said...

    Even the $1 cash games aren’t safe anymore. The 73rd ranked hoop2014 is in all my $1 50/50’s on FD. I’ve noticed him in a bunch of $1 50/50’s over the past few weeks. Why is a guy like that slumming it in the lowest entry cash game?

    He’s also in every 3 man $1 game I try to join too. What kills me is that don’t these guys have to enter them manually? Do they just enter every one that opens? It’s starting to keep me away. I’d also like to see how many of his recommendations he actually plays. If he isn’t playing any of them, then we have a real problem.

  • MrFantasy

    @BmoreClutch said...

    Even the $1 cash games aren’t safe anymore. The 73rd ranked hoop2014 is in all my $1 50/50’s on FD. I’ve noticed him in a bunch of $1 50/50’s over the past few weeks. Why is a guy like that slumming it in the lowest entry cash game?

    He has a family to feed. What’s so hard to understand?

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @MrFantasy said...

    He has a family to feed. What’s so hard to understand?

    I’ve changed my thoughts on this over time and I believe that asking high volume pros to leave profit on the table is just not going to happen across the board. Some choose not to play those games, but it’s never going to be an all-inclusive choice. Yes, playing a $1 game may seem like why would this high stakes shark be playing $1 to win $1.80. But for those guys, it’s all about volume. If that $1 has an $1.26 expectation (70% win rate), that’s $5200 profit over 20,000 contests. Now do the same thing with $2 games, $5 games, etc. When these guys may be swapping rake a lot at the higher stakes (and dealing with high variance in GPP’s), that can be very important to overall profitability.

    Personally I do not do this for a living (it’s a fun hobby) and play roughly $30-100 a night in NBA when I play (volume changes in other sports). I choose not to enter games below $3 but that is just because there is not enough money in them. But it’s not about volume/long term profit for me. If it was, and I had the bankroll, I would probably play as much volume as possible across all stakes.

    The onus is on the sites and only the sites in my opinion to change their rules to remove big name players from the smallest stakes contests. That being said, even if those players were removed, then the next level of players might move in and become the “sharks” of the lower stakes games. Hell, there are guys ranked in the top 200 on this site that rarely play stakes above $3-5. They found their niche and play a lot of volume at the lowest stakes. Where do we draw the line?

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