INDUSTRY FORUM

Comments

  • 2Slik

    • Ranked #24

      RG Tiered Ranking

    Can we get it out of the way and discuss the elephant in the room, Stake Kings?

    Is there a difference between lineup selling and crowdfunding?

    I get it but I’m not sure how well this is going to go over.

  • TheRyanFlaherty

    As someone that loathes the lineup selling thing, I don’t think this reaches that level.
    If STLCardinals84 is going to multi-enter anyway and do so within the TOS, to an individual player such as myself it doesn’t really matter who’s paying for those entries. It’s not changing the integrity of the game the same way someone buying a lineup does.

    That said, something about it (and especially being a huge advertisement) just seems awful and dirty to me. Although much of that might just be the way it makes DFS just look like gambling and my brain is still hardwired to be opposed to such things and hasn’t yet compensated for the fact that gambling is (or can be) legal and these sites are jumping right on board, so that gut feeling may be a vestige if the former climate, and there’s actually not much to be critical of.

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @2Slik said...

    Can we get it out of the way and discuss the elephant in the room, Stake Kings?

    Is there a difference between lineup selling and crowdfunding?

    I get it but I’m not sure how well this is going to go over.

    Personally I do not see an issue with selling shares of yourself. Assuming you are building the lineups all on your own and not circumventing entry limits and other people are just investing in you. I suspect StLCards is just doing it to give smaller stakes people the opportunity to sweat a higher buy-in tournament with him (he can certainly afford the entries on his own considering his recent winnings). But others do it to allow them to put more entries into certain contests (usually higher buy-in than they typically play) and lower their total risk/investment.

    I even personally have sold shares of myself on these forums back when College Football was around. I’ve also bought shares of a few other people on these forums over the years. For me it was because I had won several tickets to the bigger bowl contests. I wanted to lock in some return on investment immediately by selling a portion of my entries as I typically would not have over $3k in play on one slate. I am sure people do it for live finals all the time.

    Lineup selling is much different in my opinion due to the effect it can have on other people playing, thinking they are playing one person but really playing against the same lineup that someone else produced.

  • Mcdonacr

    One thing that no one has mentioned is that the MAX buy in $50. That negates anyone from lowering their risk who also might be a max entry person. I see no issue with it at all

  • gvn2fly1421

    I guess I am confused, how does he make money in this? And how do I make money in this? I cannot find anything in the description.

    I am considering doing it just for the hell of it, but I would like to know what I am getting myself into.

  • bigez952

    @gvn2fly1421 said...

    I guess I am confused, how does he make money in this? And how do I make money in this? I cannot find anything in the description.

    I am considering doing it just for the hell of it, but I would like to know what I am getting myself into.

    You can add markup so if the contests costs $100 you can set it up to take in $110.

  • 2Slik

    • Ranked #24

      RG Tiered Ranking

    @TheRyanFlaherty said...

    If STLCardinals84 is going to multi-enter anyway and do so within the TOS, to an individual player such as myself it doesn’t really matter who’s paying for those entries.

    If you spent the hard earned time in research and had been making a nice income from it and I say here I’ll pay you to play those 100 entries and I get all of the risk/reward would you not still want to play your own? And if you’re on the opposite side competing with the knowledge that every lobby you play in now is full of the same crowdfunded users maxing out would you still want to play? Buying a lineup whether you use it or get reimbursed for someone else playing it themselves, is a fine line.

    I know tonight it’s a little harmless but I sure don’t want this to be normalized. Yes it happens to a degree but blatantly letting this run wild will not be popular and morale is important to DFS popularity.

    Maybe this where we are headed but I liken it to a sports team which at any time can be sold and moved to another city but there’s an innocence (some may say ignorance) that makes our fan experience 100x more enjoyable.

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @gvn2fly1421 said...

    I guess I am confused, how does he make money in this? And how do I make money in this? I cannot find anything in the description.

    I am considering doing it just for the hell of it, but I would like to know what I am getting myself into.

    So if you invest $50 (the maximum he is allowing per person), you have a 0.5862% stake in his 100 entries tonight ($50/$8800). So you will get back 0.5862% of whatever he cashes for in total. If he would bink the $50k, you would have the upside to win $293 (plus anything additional from other teams he cashes).

    From his perspective, he is not “making” any money in this case as he did not add any markup. Like I said, I think he is just doing this to give some others a small piece of his action and the chance to sweat 100 teams in a bigger GPP. But in most cases, someone would sell shares of themselves to lower their overall risk. So it costs $8800 total for 100 entries at $88 a pop. Say you typically only play $4k per night (just random example). You could sell shares of yourself up to $4800. You now own 45.4545% of your 100 entries and everyone else has a combined 54+%.

  • gvn2fly1421

    @Stewburtx8 said...

    So if you invest $50 (the maximum he is allowing per person), you have a 0.5862% stake in his 100 entries tonight ($50/$8800). So you will get back 0.5862% of whatever he cashes for in total. If he would bink the $50k, you would have the upside to win $293 (plus anything additional from other teams he cashes).

    From his perspective, he is not “making” any money in this case as he did not add any markup. Like I said, I think he is just doing this to give some others a small piece of his action and the chance to sweat 100 teams in a bigger GPP. But in most cases, someone would sell shares of themselves to lower their overall risk. So it costs $8800 total for 100 entries at $88 a pop. Say you typically only play $4k per night (just random example). You could sell shares of yourself up to $4800. You now own 45.4545% of your 100 entries and everyone else has a combined 54+%.

    Thanks Stew! You are one of the better posters here and I always like your soccer talk!

    I think I might roll the dice tonight… I wonder why he advertises himself as “so far in 2018 with five $100,000 wins to my name this year. “ and he does this for a GPP where the top prize is $50K?

  • bigez952

    @gvn2fly1421 said...

    Thanks Stew! You are one of the better posters here and I always like your soccer talk!

    I think I might roll the dice tonight… I wonder why he advertises himself as “so far in 2018 with five $100,000 wins to my name this year. “ and he does this for a GPP where the top prize is $50K?

    Just because 1st place is 50K you can still cash out 100K+ with 100 entries if you can get the win and multiple other high finishes. I am pretty sure a few of his 100K+ wins were in similar tournaments where the single top prize wasn’t 100K but with the $8000-$10000 worth of total entries he had in for the slate he came away with $100K+

  • gvn2fly1421

    I see.

    Well, I am in for $50… Come on dude, my family depends on this… Don’t let us down!!!

  • SmartWater

    Marketing and Social Media Manager

    Hey Guys! I wanted to hop in and just say a few things. First off, thanks for the responses Stewburtx8. Secondly, our goal with this is to simply provide people a fun experience that they might not be able to create on their own. This is something to do for fun, not with the expectation of profit. We are trying it out and appreciate the interested and questions!

  • rysportguy

    Is he selling all of the ownership or keeping some for himself? I personally would prefer he keep at least 50% so he has skin in the game also and would get to benefit from his own lineups. Seems weird to completely sell all shares of the contest.

    EDIT: Just found the answer. He only sold 40% stake which to me is perfect. I bought in for $40.

  • gvn2fly1421

    How will we get paid? Is his account linked through StakeKings and when the contest pays out, we get paid?

  • lpdev

    I view the ups and downs and risk and reward as an important part of DFS. I don’t like the concept of the top few players mitigating their risk in a way that won’t be available to others climbing the DFS ladder. If I enter the $888 contest with single a bullet, I don’t want to face 20 lineups from stlcardinals84 because all of a sudden he’s comfortable max entering at that buyin because he no longer has to feel the risk of having that kind of money on the line. It’s also important to note that the people buying a stake in stlcardinals84 are most likely lesser competitors that have moved their money from a lineup I might beat a large percentage of the time to a share in a top player’s lineup. This results in less actual lineups in my contests overall because now multiple people are sharing in an individual lineup rather than playing themselves. Do we really want a DFS ecosystem where the casual player doesn’t exist at all. Instead it’s just a handful of top performers that sell stakes of themselves and duke it out on a nightly basis. I know that’s going a bit extreme, but this does have an impact on things and these types of scenarios should be considered.

  • tippycat

    I have no problem with it. Selling shares for a racehorse is common. Sometimes it works, Funny Cide had a lot of people that had shares. He won the Derby and the Preakness. Sometimes it doesn’t work out. Thus selling shares from a person’s knowledge and skill are the same, it might work like taking down a HUGE GGP or it might not work

  • 2Slik

    • Ranked #24

      RG Tiered Ranking

    It’s only meant to be a talking point moving forward. I see the fun of it, I like STLCards and am looking forward to the LineupHQ walkthrough. At the same time if any other site was doing the same I have no doubt the pitchforks would be raised. Throw a markup fee in there the next go around and things will not be so simple. There’s a Pandora’s Box in play here.

    I’d leave it up to poker players to tell the end story in how this plays out.

  • BobbyTheBrain

    @lpdev said...

    I view the ups and downs and risk and reward as an important part of DFS. I don’t like the concept of the top few players mitigating their risk in a way that won’t be available to others climbing the DFS ladder. If I enter the $888 contest with single a bullet, I don’t want to face 20 lineups from stlcardinals84 because all of a sudden he’s comfortable max entering at that buyin because he no longer has to feel the risk of having that kind of money on the line. It’s also important to note that the people buying a stake in stlcardinals84 are most likely lesser competitors that have moved their money from a lineup I might beat a large percentage of the time to a share in a top player’s lineup. This results in less actual lineups in my contests overall because now multiple people are sharing in an individual lineup rather than playing themselves. Do we really want a DFS ecosystem where the casual player doesn’t exist at all. Instead it’s just a handful of top performers that sell stakes of themselves and duke it out on a nightly basis. I know that’s going a bit extreme, but this does have an impact on things and these types of scenarios should be considered.

    This guy just hit hit right on the head, this is not a good thing for dfs. Greed is ruining dfs

  • BobbyTheBrain

    Online poker did crowdfunding and we all know what happen to online poker now don’t we

  • celtics2448

    This is a great idea that if taken to a further level could actually deter people from buying lineups straight up. It’s a win for everybody (even if it’s a financial loss). The person running the lineups wins since a percentage of his/her entry fees are crowdfunded so if the “pro” has a shitty night, it’s not nearly as shitty. The “shareholder” or to prove my point, the person who is now buying shares instead of lineups wins since they get to just sit back and sweat out a “pros” lineup for what is definitely less of a risk, although not as high of a reward of paying for lineups that could not cash (loss of GPP entry + cost of paying for lineup). Users like me who aren’t interested in putting a stake in also win since the total number of entries that are duplicated and purchased will plummet if this idea takes off. DK & FanDuel might have a problem with it, but i really don’t at all.

  • windchimesrrude

    2013 PFBC Qualifer

    • 2013 StarStreet MLB Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @lpdev said...

    If I enter the $888 contest with single a bullet, I don’t want to face 20 lineups from stlcardinals84 because all of a sudden he’s comfortable max entering at that buyin because he no longer has to feel the risk of having that kind of money on the line. It’s also important to note that the people buying a stake in stlcardinals84 are most likely lesser competitors that have moved their money from a lineup I might beat a large percentage of the time to a share in a top player’s lineup. This results in less actual lineups in my contests overall because now multiple people are sharing in an individual lineup rather than playing themselves

    .

  • gvn2fly1421

    Anyone else do this? I did and when I go in now it says package is sold out and I did not buy any shares. However, my $50 is gone from account.

    Looks like under transaction history it says I am in. Confusing and this will probably be the last time I do this, if I am even actually in.

  • rysportguy

    @gvn2fly1421 said...

    Anyone else do this? I did and when I go in now it says package is sold out and I did not buy any shares. However, my $50 is gone from account.

    Looks like under transaction history it says I am in. Confusing and this will probably be the last time I do this, if I am even actually in.

    Yeah I contacted them and they said I am good to go even though it doesn’t show it. They definitely need to fix up the site. Those are pretty bad glitches to have happen.

  • gvn2fly1421

    @rysportguy said...

    Yeah I contacted them and they said I am good to go even though it doesn’t show it. They definitely need to fix up the site. Those are pretty bad glitches to have happen.

    Good luck tonight! I really hope you win bigly!!!

  • hendog

    • 993

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    I don’t see a problem with it in the abstract. In theory staking can be an equalizer rather than exacerbating existing inequalities. Grinding takes a while; staking can be a way for a small bankroll player to take shots at big wins without making a poor financial decision. The variance of playing GPPs is ridiculously high, and staking can be a boon for the small and medium-time player. It can also be a fun way to get friends and family in on the sweat. Ideally there would be a platform for smaller stakers instead of this “buy into one pro” thing—that is off-putting for sure but to me not a reason to want to ban staking.

    I don’t agree with lpdev; If you enter a high-buyin GPP with a single entry you have to expect to be facing people with bigger bankrolls than you. You could just as easily argue that it would make the staked player play more conservatively because they don’t want to lose other people’s money. Bankroll is an inherently unequal proposition as some people bring lots of disposable income to the table and others are playing with scraps. Staking is not making any appreciable difference in this dynamic.

    Also, staking is not currently prohibited by DraftKing’s Community Guidelines. I think you could reasonably argue that the last entry under “Acceptable Behaviors” implicitly prohibits staking a player in a contest where you are also playing. But there’s nothing about the case where you’re not playing the same contest.

    Finally, I’ll say that we could probably learn a lot from the dynamics of staking in poker, where there is a mature marketplace for staking. And to pre-empt “dur, look what happened to online poker”: that had nothing to do with staking.

  • BobbyTheBrain

    yes i hope you win too, and i hope you enjoy donating to help these guys mass enter contests more than they already are

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