INDUSTRY FORUM

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  • 2Slik

    Can we get it out of the way and discuss the elephant in the room, Stake Kings?

    Is there a difference between lineup selling and crowdfunding?

    I get it but I’m not sure how well this is going to go over.

  • SunburntDonk

    Brandon Adams wins 217k last night on 3 stakekings packages. What an unreal night

  • jt77316

    @SunburntDonk said...

    Brandon Adams wins 217k last night on 3 stakekings packages. What an unreal night

    I signed up yesterday and put my $50 on him. Wise investment!

  • bigez952

    @dbullsfan said...

    my question and forgive me if it has been answered is. How do you choose which tournaments/lineups you are investing in. For example say for the millionaire maker for PGA at the Open Championship I want to invest in Awesomo if he post. Does a $10 investment go 50% into 1 lineup of his 150 (assuming he max enters) or is it 3% but covers winnings for all 150 lineups of $3000 entries, also what if other GPP’s or cash games are entered for that slate.

    If Awesomo posted for the millionaire makers your $10 would get you 0.33% of his winnings for all 150 lineups assuming the markup is 1.0%. A lot of these packages are posted with 20-30% markup so your $10 investment for him into the millionaire maker would actually get you around 0.23% of his total winning for all 150 lineups.

    So for an example lets say you did that wins the tournament and cashes a total of $1,100,000 you would be entitled to around $2500 and then StakeKings also charges a 10% commission so you would walk around with around $2250 or so.

    The description should be very clear as to what the package covers. Most are just for 1 specific tournament and wouldn’t cover anything else he is playing for that slate.

    EDIT : I was incorrect in stating there is an extra 10% fee as that is built in the 20-30% markup that most pros charge. So in my example above your $10 stake if Awesomo won the million and change you would get about $2500

  • Numberoneoutlaw

    @jt77316 said...

    I signed up yesterday and put my $50 on him. Wise investment!

    How much return did you get on the $50 investment?

  • FkCoolers

    • Ranked #70

      RG Tiered Ranking

    @SunburntDonk said...

    Brandon Adams wins 217k last night on 3 stakekings packages. What an unreal night

    So is this a shill account or what? No dfs activity in a while but posting an awful lot in this thread.

    There are gonna be shill accounts guaranteed so I just wanna know how early on I should expect them.

  • jt77316

    @Numberoneoutlaw said...

    How much return did you get on the $50 investment?

    Paid out at $492 and change.

  • Pats7914

    • 74

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #98

      RG Tiered Ranking

    @bigez952 said...

    If Awesomo posted for the millionaire makers your $10 would get you 0.33% of his winnings for all 150 lineups assuming the markup is 1.0%. A lot of these packages are posted with 20-30% markup so your $10 investment for him into the millionaire maker would actually get you around 0.23% of his total winning for all 150 lineups.

    So for an example lets say you did that wins the tournament and cashes a total of $1,100,000 you would be entitled to around $2500 and then StakeKings also charges a 10% commission so you would walk around with around $2250 or so.

    The description should be very clear as to what the package covers. Most are just for 1 specific tournament and wouldn’t cover anything else he is playing for that slate.

    Can someone verify that these mechanics are correct? Namely, that the 10% fee isn’t built into the markup but comes out of the payout? I had thought that was built into the markup.

  • StakeKings

    This is incorrect. Whatever percentage that you purchase is the percentage that you will receive – StakeKings does not take any additional fee from winnings that are paid out. The only fee we take is from the pro side on what sells on our platform – there are no hidden fees for buyers. If you have additional questions please feel free to contact our live chat support on the bottom right of StakeKings (blue circle on the bottom right of the site)

  • petteytheft89

    • 7

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #7

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • 2019 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2018 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    I disagree with that completely. The pros charge more to compensate for the sites fee so it does come from the buyers. BrandonAdams tweeted that he thought his real markup was 1.05 so he charged 1.15 to make up for the sites fee.

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    @FkCoolers said...

    So is this a shill account or what? No dfs activity in a while but posting an awful lot in this thread.

    There are gonna be shill accounts guaranteed so I just wanna know how early on I should expect them.

    That member has been around for a year and has 17 posts, if you click on his name you can see that.

  • Pats7914

    • 74

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #98

      RG Tiered Ranking

    @petteytheft89 said...

    I disagree with that completely. The pros charge more to compensate for the sites fee so it does come from the buyers. BrandonAdams tweeted that he thought his real markup was 1.05 so he charged 1.15 to make up for the sites fee.

    The fee is like a tax, so where the incidence lies ultimately depends on the elasticity of demand, but buyer almost certainly paying for some of it.

  • Pats7914

    • 74

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #98

      RG Tiered Ranking

    @bhdevault said...

    That member has been around for a year and has 17 posts, if you click on his name you can see that.

    I personally had clicked on his name and found his presence a bit….odd. But if rotogrinders is officially vouching that it isn’t a shill account, that’s great.

    Just to preempt a rebuttal, my opinion is pretty straightforward. Crowdfunding for DFS is interesting, but the economics of this are lol as far as being a money making venture for “investors” (10% fee just isnt aligned with the current reality of DFS economics). If this is designed to be an investment platform there should be an easy way for investors to obtain ROI data relevant for their investment as is common in the poker world.

    To date, I have not seen any ROI data posted for any of the DFS deals offered. Happy to be corrected if we have seen track records posted to validate the markup asked for, but I havent been able to find it.

    Ideally investors would want robust data about the ROI for winning players in a given sport/tournament to be able to validate realistic ROI expectations. At minimum, relevant track record for whoever is offering the package seems like a super reasonable ask for anyone wishing to invest.

    The tool to provide ROI exists, right here, on the RG site. So perhaps a good synergy opportunity for the StakeKings/RG partnership would be for RG to provide that ROI data for players who offer stakekings packages.

  • jt77316

    BrandonAdams is crushing again tonight. All his stakes were sold out when I tried to buy so I blew $40 on Hoop2410 instead.

  • rysportguy

    People can sit here and complain about stuff all they want. I went from $20 yesterday to $700 after tonights contests pay out. Obviously they aren’t going to keep playing at this high of a level but it’s fun to be able to ride the hot streak with them and make some nice cash along the way.

  • rysportguy

    The ethics behind it can be argued but in my opinion if it doesn’t increase their play (both players are normal max players) I don’t see a real issue with it. It shouldn’t have any impact on the competition if they play the same amount they have always played.

  • cjeagle3

    @rysportguy said...

    The ethics behind it can be argued but in my opinion if it doesn’t increase their play (both players are normal max players) I don’t see a real issue with it. It shouldn’t have any impact on the competition if they play the same amount they have always played.

    I don’t understand why anyone would think someone who “invests” their own money professionally for profit wouldn’t “invest” more when backed? If that scenario was to play out it means either A) They lose more than they win or B) They like to give their money away to stakers and brokers out of the goodness of their heart.

    The likely outcome is they’re splitting off entries for a guaranteed small profit and playing more in other lobbies to keep the potential ceiling.

  • tipperi

    I threw a little over 100 bucks on Brandon last night, he cleaned house. Problem was, on the package I purchased he didnt take down the tourney but finished 3rd which paid 10k.

    This morning i have 258 in my account after he won 10k in the contest. 25% of his stake was available and I purchased 9% of that 25%. I knew what I was signing up for but IMO, it wasn’t a great return on investment. He had an amazing night (which isn’t going to happen consistently) and he doubled my money plus a few bucks. So the question then becomes, would I have a better shot at cashing in 100 bucks worth of MLB double-ups? Or does Brandon have a better shot at scoring high in a large entry GPP?

    For me personally, i’ll put the money back on DK and bet on myself

  • rysportguy

    @cjeagle3 said...

    I don’t understand why anyone would think someone who “invests” their own money professionally for profit wouldn’t “invest” more when backed? If that scenario was to play out it means either A) They lose more than they win or B) They like to give their money away to stakers and brokers out of the goodness of their heart.

    The likely outcome is they’re splitting off entries for a guaranteed small profit and playing more in other lobbies to keep the potential ceiling.

    or C. They were already max entering these contests prior to being staked and being staked may limit your upside but it also helps ease the downside of long cold streaks. They only have it at a 15% premium and only sell around 25% of play so they are no where near locking in guaranteed profit.

  • rysportguy

    @tipperi said...

    I threw a little over 100 bucks on Brandon last night, he cleaned house. Problem was, on the package I purchased he didnt take down the tourney but finished 3rd which paid 10k.

    This morning i have 258 in my account after he won 10k in the contest. 25% of his stake was available and I purchased 9% of that 25%. I knew what I was signing up for but IMO, it wasn’t a great return on investment. He had an amazing night (which isn’t going to happen consistently) and he doubled my money plus a few bucks. So the question then becomes, would I have a better shot at cashing in 100 bucks worth of MLB double-ups? Or does Brandon have a better shot at scoring high in a large entry GPP?

    For me personally, i’ll put the money back on DK and bet on myself

    I put in $20 and made $700 in two nights. There is no chance you purchased 9% with $100. The contest you are likely referring to is the Monster. If you had put that $100 into either the Beast, Walkoff or FenceBuster contests you would have made $1000.

    The upside is absolutely there. You are correct that they aren’t going to win all the time. This is a gamble at the end of the day but the chance of me turning $20 into $700 would be very slim.

  • tipperi

    Yes, I did buy into the monster. Again, its “9% of 25%” as described in the package, the reality is its only roughly 2.25% because 75% of the entry wasn’t available for purchase.

    Yes, I agree the upside is there but again the fact that i bought into the wrong contest of the couple that Brandon posted last night is another piece of the variable.

    I’m also having a tough time understanding the sweat, if i cant see live results for the contest. Maybe I’m missing something there?

  • rysportguy

    @tipperi said...

    Yes, I did buy into the monster. Again, its “9% of 25%” as described in the package, the reality is its only roughly 2.25% because 75% of the entry wasn’t available for purchase.

    Yes, I agree the upside is there but again the fact that i bought into the wrong contest of the couple that Brandon posted last night is another piece of the variable.

    I’m also having a tough time understanding the sweat, if i cant see live results for the contest. Maybe I’m missing something there?

    Sorry I misunderstood the 9%. I see what you are saying. They also tell you the % of the entire winnings you would get. The site isn’t perfect but they are trying to improve it when they can. As far as the sweat goes you can see follow the contests live.

    In fact if you checkout their discord. https://discordapp.com/invite/AJRgj7K

    They are very active on there and post all the contests to follow along with and some of the members sweat it together. It is quite fun.

  • cjeagle3

    @rysportguy said...

    or C. They were already max entering these contests prior to being staked and being staked may limit your upside but it also helps ease the downside of long cold streaks.

    So you’re saying they were overextending themselves with bad bankroll management before to where this now is more in line with how much they were willing to bet before staking. Right…..

  • rysportguy

    @cjeagle3 said...

    So you’re saying they were overextending themselves with bad bankroll management before to where this now is more in line with how much they were willing to bet before staking. Right…..

    Keep in mind there is a 15% premium for these guys. I understand your argument if they are just giving away some for no markup. The 15% premium could be enough for them to think it’s worth limiting their upside. Brandon Adams won over $400k these last two days and Stakekings users got 50k of that. This is still very much a gamble. I am not trying to make it seem like it isn’t. But we have all seen guys ride hot for a while and it is nice to have the opportunity to join the ride.

  • cjeagle3

    And on such “hot streaks” these pros will up their fee and saturate the lobbies with more action. Meanwhile the main host sites are going to get the notion there is room to raise the rake if other feeders are cashing in off their market. A failed experiment if played out to the fullest.

  • rysportguy

    @cjeagle3 said...

    And on such “hot streaks” these pros will up their fee and saturate the lobbies with more action. Meanwhile the main host sites are going to get the notion there is room to raise the rake if other feeders are cashing in off their market. A failed experiment if played out to the fullest.

    If they want to continue to get staked they are going to need the stakeholders to profit and since they are only selling 25% of the contest they still need to do well in order to profit. Their interests are aligned with the stakeholders.

    As far as whether or not it hurts DFS I think it is fair to say it does. I think Sports betting hurts DFS, multi-entry hurts DFS, I think high rake hurts DFS. There are plenty of things hurting DFS. I can disagree with staking and still partake in it. I am not stubborn enough to sit on the sidelines and protest while a guy is making $200k a night and giving away 25% of it at a low markup. When he gets cold I will likely step away or look to stake someone else.

    It’s really up to the DFS sites to improve their platform. If they can’t keep DFS going that is on them not me. In my opinion staking has been going on for a long time but now the little guys (us) get to partake in it.

    EDIT: Btw the best part of all this, it’s really fun. I would never be able to participate in these high end contests so getting to follow along and watch has been an absolute blast. They are very active on discord and everyone with a stake can root alongside one another. He had a walkoff homerun on Monday to win the Monster and it was an awesome rush watching it unfold. I think through all this debating/ethics that part is lost.

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