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  • HoneyBadgerDFS

    Starting to see StakeKings getting a lot of push and while we are all adults and its your money to do with you please, It might be helpful if it was clarified what the website does because StakeKings doesn’t really provide a clear outline of what type of service is is providing.

    Some Touts/Pros on twitter are using the logic that “StakeKings is an entertainment service” however its not being marketed as such. The average Joe sees “successful pros” posting about StakeKings and think “oh wow this is a way I can get a piece of the winnings but this person who wins a lot of money! Great investment.” Well ive got some bad news.

    On StakeKings, users are offered the opportunity to pay for a % of a DFS pro’s POTENTIAL winnings from a contest at a certain percent markup.

    This benefits both parties because the DFS pro is allowed to essential crowd source entry fees for contests they want to enter, and below average DFS players are able to purchase a stake in a DFS Pros winnings without worrying about researching/making their own lineup.

    However, it is important to note that this is an entertainment purchase not an investment,

    Even the best of DFS Pros, in GPPs, are barely beating the game to be profitable. They stay afloat or get into the green via H2H contests.

    A majority of DFS pro players are either even or in the red in DFS GPPs by 10s of thousands of dollars which makes sense because DFS GPPs are inherently hard to be profitable in year as on average a DFS GPP only pays out 22-25% of entrants, and min cashing rarely now a days pays out 2x.

    I say all that to say this:
    -1 understand that stakekings is a form of entertainment. No matter how many screen shots a Tout/Pro has of them winning GPPs, odds are they are barely even.
    -2 do your research on the Tout/Pro you are putting money on. What sport are they best at? Are they selling action on a sport they do well in or a sport they struggle in.
    -3 if you cannot accurately find info on the Tout/Pro’s success in a sport or they aren’t providing it before asking u to buy shares of their play, ask yourself why?

    - Badger Out

  • Pbasniper

    Biggest issue I have. A) No historical reporting on past packages If someone has sold 20+ packages on their site I want to know their historical ROI. I don’t care about a big bink they had, I want to know their ROI. B) On Twitter when asked how SK would verify wins a DFS player who is selling action (sorry can’t find tweet think it was Justin?) said he just screen shots and sends to them. That was absolutely crazy to me…especially when all these contests have links to sweat them live I feel like those should be provided to SK to post on their site etc.

    As currently built this seems like it’s for a casual fan who wants a sweat, I don’t think anyone is using it as an investment tool and making money. That being said charging mark up to games you can’t beat or just manage to beat when factoring in DK crowns and your achievement level etc. is crazy to me.

  • bigez952

    I don’t know why anyone would put money into this type of service. With the rake as high as it is in DFS, combined with stakekings fees + additional mark ups there is no way anyone should expect to be profitable through stakekings long term.

    It is probably just me but I don’t like the fact sites who provide content like Rotogrinders partner with this type of site. It seems like a conflict of interest for touts to be providing content at the same time as trying to recruit investors in the form of staking. If I really wanted to invest in a pro I sure as hell wouldn’t want him to be giving out advice/ lineups at the same time.

    These two types of business just seem to clash so much where the lines get blurred over what is a conflict of interest and what isn’t. Just my opinion and I very well could be in the minority on that one.

  • HoneyBadgerDFS

    @Pbasniper said...

    Biggest issue I have. A) No historical reporting on past packages If someone has sold 20+ packages on their site I want to know their historical ROI. I don’t care about a big bink they had, I want to know their ROI. B) On Twitter when asked how SK would verify wins a DFS player who is selling action (sorry can’t find tweet think it was Justin?) said he just screen shots and sends to them. That was absolutely crazy to me…especially when all these contests have links to sweat them live I feel like those should be provided to SK to post on their site etc.

    As currently built this seems like it’s for a casual fan who wants a sweat, I don’t think anyone is using it as an investment tool and making money. That being said charging mark up to games you can’t beat or just manage to beat when factoring in DK crowns and your achievement level etc. is crazy to me.

    I agree 100%.

    It def is something built for the casual fan. These types of threads and discussions are necessary so hopefully the newbie who thinks its anything more than that, will stop and make an informed decision rather than believe the propaganda.

  • HoneyBadgerDFS

    @bigez952 said...

    I don’t know why anyone would put money into this type of service. With the rake as high as it is in DFS, combined with stakekings fees + additional mark ups there is no way anyone should expect to be profitable through stakekings long term.

    It is probably just me but I don’t like the fact sites who provide content like Rotogrinders partner with this type of site. It seems like a conflict of interest for touts to be providing content at the same time as trying to recruit investors in the form of staking. If I really wanted to invest in a pro I sure as hell wouldn’t want him to be giving out advice/ lineups at the same time.

    This here as well!

    I think its pretty obvious this is great for RG and a way to reload their touts. However its terrible for the newbie or misinformed user who comes to RG and see the StakeKings propaganda all over the site and from their owners/touts on twitter.

    I feel like thats who their preying on and i dont know why

  • PigskinaBlanket

    • 216

      RG Overall Ranking

    • x2

      2016 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    Actually, I enjoy the sweat. I dont think of it as an investment tool, but if I want some gambool and dont have time to build my lineups…..I like having a piece of someone else. I have no issue with people selling their action and would like to see it more commonly acceptable. It ties in with, id be much happier to see us all rooting for one another than looking for ways to shat on other people and any success they have.

  • DFSx42

    @Pbasniper said...

    Biggest issue I have. A) No historical reporting on past packages If someone has sold 20+ packages on their site I want to know their historical ROI. I don’t care about a big bink they had, I want to know their ROI. B) On Twitter when asked how SK would verify wins a DFS player who is selling action (sorry can’t find tweet think it was Justin?) said he just screen shots and sends to them. That was absolutely crazy to me…especially when all these contests have links to sweat them live I feel like those should be provided to SK to post on their site etc.

    As currently built this seems like it’s for a casual fan who wants a sweat, I don’t think anyone is using it as an investment tool and making money. That being said charging mark up to games you can’t beat or just manage to beat when factoring in DK crowns and your achievement level etc. is crazy to me.

    that’s insane they don’t do links to rail your horses

    i get the no ROI thing though, they should disclose the ROI of stakeking backed contests but i don’t think someone should be forced to disclose career roi and what have you

  • Zieg30

    It’s more of an entertainment product than anything. I believe that if you staked 100% of the offerings by almost any of the pros you would lose money over time due to the mark up.

    That said, historical performance of any of the pros is publicly available on various poker sites, so it’s all out there for anyone to see.

    As I indicated above, I use it for entertainment, not expecting to be profitable longterm (though that would certainly make it more entertaining). I don’t have time in my life to play any tournament for the 5-9 hours it would take to win it, and by staking I get to follow someone else’s action and tune in at any point to the site to follow it (or their twitch if they’re streaming it, which is more fun).

  • DSofM

    • 63

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #3

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • Blogger of the Month

    @HoneyBadgerDFS said...

    Even the best of DFS Pros, in GPPs, are barely beating the game to be profitable. They stay afloat or get into the green via H2H contests.

    As someone who’s played cash games maybe a handful of times in the last 2 years while also maintaing a pretty high ROI in my main sports, I can say this is very incorrect possibly to the point of the opposite being true. People are so, so bad at GPPs ((yes this extends to many of the old “pros” that lots of people look(ed?) up to)) these days meanwhile all the info has somewhat dried up the cash games. I’d recommend anyone trying to be profitable in DFS to dump high rake/pro/same lineup infested games where you need a ridiculous amount of entries at a small ROI AND to be very good to even have a decent chance at making money, and instead start playing GPPs. Yeah, you’re gonna lose a lot of days but if you can ride it out the long term payoff is much better for you. Even casual players, playing a single lineup in some 50/50s and h2hs. Yeah you get the placebo effect of “winning” more often, but in reality you are just slowly bleeding your money and aren’t even giving yourself a chance at a huge payout. Anyone playing for fun would be much, much better off not playing cash games AND avoiding as much chalk as possible, especially in sports like MLB.

  • yisman

    @Zieg30 said...

    It’s more of an entertainment product than anything. I believe that if you staked 100% of the offerings by almost any of the pros you would lose money over time due to the mark up.

    That said, historical performance of any of the pros is publicly available on various poker sites, so it’s all out there for anyone to see.

    As I indicated above, I use it for entertainment, not expecting to be profitable longterm (though that would certainly make it more entertaining). I don’t have time in my life to play any tournament for the 5-9 hours it would take to win it, and by staking I get to follow someone else’s action and tune in at any point to the site to follow it (or their twitch if they’re streaming it, which is more fun).

    this thread is more about the DFS aspect of it than the poker aspect, since RG is trying to get people to stake others in DFS

  • 2Slik

    Kicked this topic around a year ago when it first came out. My statements on this being a losing proposition for investors and the general community still stands. I also still feel this goes against both RG and Draftkings core mission statements, not to mention gameplay rules. An interesting solution would be to restrict staking to $100 minimum entry and up tournaments, then let the sharks eat each other. If it’s about entertainment then watch the pro’s go against pro’s, Thunderdome style…

    https://rotogrinders.com/threads/stake-kings-2543043?page=1#reply-2543043

  • DFSx42

    I wouldn’t worry about it, I’ve contacted them numerous times, even when they were actively soliciting, I have a very impressive win rate that can be easily verified, not once have they responded…

  • PigskinaBlanket

    • 216

      RG Overall Ranking

    • x2

      2016 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @DFSx42 said...

    I wouldn’t worry about it, I’ve contacted them numerous times, even when they were actively soliciting, I have a very impressive win rate that can be easily verified, not once have they responded…

    I dont follow the point

  • DFSx42

    my point is it’s not really very growth focused, when you look at it, it’s just a very select few options and all at very rapey markup levels that only an idiot would accept – it appears to be a side project of sorts kept to a select few hoping their exclusivity allows them to charge absurd rates, otherwise you figure they’d at least send a response to the people trying to get listed given that more listings = more commissions for them

  • Pats7914

    • 80

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #57

      RG Tiered Ranking

    There is nothing wrong with the concept, but It is basically a tax on idiots at the common markup levels.

    The core problem is more the disgusting 10% markup charged but the site than the actual “pros” (in quotes because to be a pro you have to win money, and most of these guys ain’t doing that) offering packages, but the marketing of the product by RG (and a number of the “pros”) is sort of scummy. The “pros” should still be mocked and shamed as they are acting like the boiler room grifters of the DFS industry, but charging 10% for escrow is really the key problem

    Stakekings isnt a scam site or anything, but just because RG and a few hustlers and grifters can loot an ignorant player base to squeeze a few more bucks out a a stagnant industry doesn’t mean they should do so or that players should support it.

    EDIT: one other thing, if the poster above is saying he acquired about joining but never received a response that’s not great either.

  • spx333

    • x2

      2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    if somebody wants to pay the rake twice, and the marketplace supports such an idea, then let it happen…

  • PigskinaBlanket

    • 216

      RG Overall Ranking

    • x2

      2016 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    I guess Im surprised they dont have more players posting action as well, but its probably supply and demand driven. I think the concept has potential. My only change would be that the 10% markup adder should be charged to the seller (orr a flat fee to list) rather than to the investor.

  • DFSx42

    @Pats7914 said...

    There is nothing wrong with the concept, but It is basically a tax on idiots at the common markup levels.

    The core problem is more the disgusting 10% markup charged but the site than the actual “pros” (in quotes because to be a pro you have to win money, and most of these guys ain’t doing that) offering packages, but the marketing of the product by RG (and a number of the “pros”) is sort of scummy. The “pros” should still be mocked and shamed as they are acting like the boiler room grifters of the DFS industry, but charging 10% for escrow is really the key problem

    Stakekings isnt a scam site or anything, but just because RG and a few hustlers and grifters can loot an ignorant player base to squeeze a few more bucks out a a stagnant industry doesn’t mean they should do so or that players should support it.

    EDIT: one other thing, if the poster above is saying he acquired about joining but never received a response that’s not great either.

    lol at 10% markup… you should look again, right now the lowest on offer is 1.2 and one guy is charging 1.92 and he’s actually sold most of that package already…

    i have checked from time to time, average is 1.4ish and quite a few are known losing players

    again, when someone who is a very strong player, played as a high stakes pro both online and in Macau for poker and has an ROI above 10% in cash games in DFS and can provide documentation on all of this is rejected but they let losing players get listed at 1.4 markup… it’s very clearly an insiders club

    not even responding to someone like me when I apply (3 times now) is because if I charged my 1.05-1.09 markup it’d expose the utter ridiculousness that is stakekings

    stick to youtstake… stakekings is a suckers bet… they sucked me in with their DFS offerings but it’s pretty obvious that it’s a borderline scam site by this point

  • Pats7914

    • 80

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #57

      RG Tiered Ranking

    The 10 percent I’m referencing is the stakekings take. You would lose money at 1.08.

  • DFSx42

    that’s not markup, that’s a site fee and it’s understandable given the site needs to make money and it’s actually good, a lot of scams are done in staking between strangers (you’d be surprised, a lot of very famous poker players have scammed people this way), paying a fee to a middle man site like this is good insurance against that

    charging 1.08 markup means if you staked me for $100, you’d be paying me $8 to do it, any site fees would be on your end because they’d be handling your payments in and paying you out

    say someone charges that 1.92 markup, you want to buy $10 of his action, you’re paying $19.20 for that, $10 goes into his buyin, $9.2 is the fee he charges you to stake him

    so any fee stakekings adds would be on top of that, meaning even if he min cashes and doubles the money, you’re still only breaking even. maybe stakekings bakes everything all into one single number for simplication (thus why markups are so high) but it’s still paying an absurd premium are you’re investing in a far worse player and paying far more fees than if you went to youstake or 2+2

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    I thought I saw that StakeKings does charge the 10% to the seller? So a 1.10 markup would essentially mean the seller is just passing that fee on to the buyer and charging no markup.

    To me, this is mostly entertainment for the buyer. A chance to sweat/follow bigger contests they would not normally play or have a small piece of a max entry player (which they would not normally have). I do not believe a seller should have to show their ROI or prove they are a profitable player. Hell they could be a break-even or even a losing player yet it could still be a better investment for some buyers than playing lineups themselves. As long as the sellers are not being fraudulent or claiming to be something they are not, then I do not see the problem with this.

  • Pats7914

    • 80

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #57

      RG Tiered Ranking

    I know how markup works. On stakekings the 10% fee is built into the number, so you would be charging 1.15-1.19. This service doesn’t really work for DFS with a 10% fee for escrow because of the excessive rake charged by the DFS sites. In the not so distant future this will be handled with blockchain contracts and a staking service for DFS should be a more reasonable option

  • DFSx42

    @Stewburtx8 said...

    I thought I saw that StakeKings does charge the 10% to the seller? So a 1.10 markup would essentially mean the seller is just passing that fee on to the buyer and charging no markup.

    To me, this is mostly entertainment for the buyer. A chance to sweat/follow bigger contests they would not normally play or have a small piece of a max entry player (which they would not normally have). I do not believe a seller should have to show their ROI or prove they are a profitable player. Hell they could be a break-even or even a losing player yet it could still be a better investment for some buyers than playing lineups themselves. As long as the sellers are not being fraudulent or claiming to be something they are not, then I do not see the problem with this.

    thing is though that industry standard markup is usually 1.1, sometimes it’s a little more but then it’s usually a world beater who attracts quite the following

    the people charging 1.3-1.8 (after the site’s .1) aren’t anywhere near that class. The guys listed right now are profitable but all have less than 10k in profit from poker tournies… they are skilled amateurs charging a much higher markup than if you went and staked some of the best in the world… that’s just absurd

    you can very reliably track all poker tourney win and loss rates online, very easy to do homework on those guys. I just bought some of Chance Kornuth’s WSOP package on Youstake and I believe he charged a 1.04 markup and Youtstake charged a few bucks – argue all you want about him being elite or not, but he’s certainly miles better than the people currently charging 10x the markup of him at stakekings

    timex also has a very high markup private listing site as well – i really think the end goal here isn’t getting staked, it’s finding people who have basically no understanding of it to pay them to play

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @DFSx42 said...

    thing is though that industry standard markup is usually 1.1, sometimes it’s a little more but then it’s usually a world beater who attracts quite the following

    the people charging 1.3-1.8 (after the site’s .1) aren’t anywhere near that class. The guys listed right now are profitable but all have less than 10k in profit from poker tournies… they are skilled amateurs charging a much higher markup than if you went and staked some of the best in the world… that’s just absurd

    you can very reliably track all poker tourney win and loss rates online, very easy to do homework on those guys. I just bought some of Chance Kornuth’s WSOP package on Youstake and I believe he charged a 1.04 markup and Youtstake charged a few bucks – argue all you want about him being elite or not, but he’s certainly miles better than the people currently charging 10x the markup of him at stakekings

    timex also has a very high markup private listing site as well – i really think the end goal here isn’t getting staked, it’s finding people who have basically no understanding of it to pay them to play

    I was speaking more to DFS where ROI and profitability is not available. It seems the highest markup on the DFS packages is 1.25. Many are 1.15 or 1.20. These players may not all be worth that markup long term but it still is worth it to many people for the entertainment. They also likely are getting better value on a BigT or Squirrelpatrol for example than if they spent the same dollar value on their own lineups. They get good upside in top heavy tournaments for a relatively small investment. If buyers view it as the cost of entertainment, I see nothing wrong with that.

    To me, someone is worth whatever markup someone is willing to pay for them. I’ve never used StakeKings but I am not sure why anyone feels the need to bash the site or those offering packages at markup. It seems many packages are selling out so obviously people are interested.

  • RikkiDee

    • 12

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #9

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • x3

      2018 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • x2

      2017 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    neither

  • DFSx42

    this person is there currently charging 1.23 markup… i’m speechless… https://www.sharkscope.com/#Player-Statistics//networks/PartyPoker/players/courtiebee

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