INDUSTRY FORUM

Comments

  • mambaland

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/darrenheitner/2018/02/14/former-investment-darlings-draftkings-and-fanduel-are-struggling-to-grow/#575f34b6269e

  • madmanjayWV

    #YAHOOFTW — Keep making them single entry $4,000 GPPs NIGEL

  • mike291md

    I know a lot of people are going to tell me I’m wrong but my personal theory is a variety of factors are killing the industry:

    (1) GPP’s are too tough to generate a sustainable profit
    First and foremost, it takes an absolute perfect lineup to win these days. That’s pretty demanding of the everyday player who just wants to play GPP’s and do well consistently. The payout systems continue to to be too top-heavy. Demanding top 5-10 finishes and leaving the rest with an insubstantial reward will weigh on even “the good player” over time. “The great player” may be able to overcome this if he or she can consistently get top finishes, but “the good player” outnumbers “the great player” by a lot. So catering to “the great player” is not long-term profitable. Solution? Spread the rewards out to make finishing feel like a win.

    (2) Actively pursue and prevent lineup buying (cheating)
    When you see the same exact lineups under multiple screen names finish with the exact same lineup combination, this should draw a red flag to the site. Monitor said screen names going forward to ensure this isn’t happening more than once. Heck, maybe it was a coincidence, but you can’t assume that. Also, all it takes is a quick scan of the internet to find these sites and twitter accounts that sell lineups. You need to start threatening action to prevent this from ongoing. If it’s obvious to a casual player, it should also be obvious to the website.

    (3) Constant rake increases
    How much higher is the rake going to go? The higher the rake, the more it chokes out every single player. At this rate, what happens when rake hits 20%? What incentive will drive people then? It’s already hard enough to get any profit for the average player playing DFS, yet you tack this factor on and you can essentially forget it. Find a nice rake setting that works for both the site and the player and stop raising it.

    Just my thoughts. You should of been about protecting the average player from day 1 but, in my opinion, you’ve let the sideshow stuff go on way too long. You’ve been slow to act to stop sharks from preying on low-money games. You’ve been slow to act to keep the tournament standings from looking ridiculous (lineup trains/bought lineups/etc). You’ve been slow to act to do all of the above because you’ve selfishly had only your rake in mind instead of keeping the industry fun and sustainable long-term.

    I think a lot of people are waiting for one website to come along and really do it right (aka keep the average player in mind more so than the sharks). Sadly, though, it may never happen. Rather, one site has it’s plus and minuses and another site the same.

  • mike291md

    I think that #3^ the rake has gone up so much because the sites are financially struggling. You need to go back and look what online poker did well. Online poker tournaments didn’t just reward the final table. You got a nice reward for getting close to the final table and you didn’t need to play perfect poker every single time you entered a tournament. You need to scale your tournaments to make them more profitable all around.

    As your current tournaments stand, they are way too ridiculous to make money in. You only cater to the top finishes, the perfect lineup combos. Players now know that just one mistake in your lineup means you’re not winning anything decent. And your lineup can be finished within the first half-hour or hour of contests.

    Offering of single entry tourneys were a great start. However, you don’t promote them at all because you want the multi-entry rake generators. You want the quick money instead of the slow, long-term money of the casual player who returns because he wants something fun and winnable. You love the Lion of the industry but give no love to his prey. Soon, there will be no prey. Heck, this is probably already happening right now. People are getting tired of DFS more quickly because they see how ridiculous it is to churn a profit.

    On top of that, you have situations like the Pelicans Roof incident where one site refunded its customers and another didn’t. It continues to prove that you don’t care about the average customer enough. You’re already bleeding and instead of doing some goodwill for the customer, you decided to further show them you don’t care. You provided more incentive for people to tell other people NOT TO PLAY DFS. You should be focused on the average person. You should be focused on keeping the games clean and winnable. You should be doing things that attract players instead of constantly driving them away.

    But don’t listen to me, I’m just an average player. Keep listening to the guys who say “Make Better Lineups” because that strategy is clearly working out well.

  • XxHeisenbergxX

    You won’t see me shedding any tears. Greed destroys all and it seems as if its catching up to them. Oh well.

  • TheRyanFlaherty

    Hey, who would have thought the “if it makes more money today, then it’s fine by us” business model wouldn’t lead to player retention and long term success.

    Virtually any day of the year you can come to the forum and find a thread questioning – take increases, prize structurers, pushing players to higher buy-in GPP’s – which effect everyone. Or threads on – lineup sellers, “pros” max entering quarter games or scooping every H2H even at micro price points – which really effect new players/retention, as this just fuels the “its a scam” public narrative when any first time depositor experiences these things.

    I’ve probably ranted on each of those issues separately more than once, so I’ll spare doing that here for the moment, because as I said, these things just cycle through the front page constantly, as new players stumble upon these issues and they are never addressed by the sites.

    It is sad too, because I do think (at least circumstantial to my experience) it does seem there has been a bigger player base in recent months than say a year ago (maybe due to some of the big NFL promos?) so these sites do have a chance to turn it around…it’s just that they’ve given little reason to expect that.

    The biggest change of late would seem to be adding all sorts of new game types. This is something I’m always in favor of, more choices can be a good thing and different games can appeal to different people…that said, if you want to be cynical you can also see the added games (especially stooping to offering single game slates) as a means to extract more money from the small part of the player base that they’ve gotten hooked. So I’d have to say that overall this is a TBD in regards to how it effects things long term.

    Like I said, it’s a shame…these sites have what amounts to the closest thing you can get to legal sports betting, yet so often they can’t se to get out of their own way.

  • drewcrawford03

    • 2019 FanDuel FantaSea Finalist

    • 165

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2018 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    The lack of vision by these two companies has been alarming for some time and I think we all know how this is eventually going to end.

  • txdave41

    @mike291md said...

    (2) Actively pursue and prevent lineup buying (cheating)
    When you see the same exact lineups under multiple screen names finish with the exact same lineup combination, this should draw a red flag to the site. Monitor said screen names going forward to ensure this isn’t happening more than once. Heck, maybe it was a coincidence, but you can’t assume that. Also, all it takes is a quick scan of the internet to find these sites and twitter accounts that sell lineups. You need to start threatening action to prevent this from ongoing. If it’s obvious to a casual player, it should also be obvious to the website.

    Sad thing Fanduel could make the experience worthwhile for newcomers and losing players like me with just a few changes. Like freerolls , for instance. Freerolls are designed to lure people back into playing with a no risk tournament. I’ve planned on Fanduel since 2014 and never once cashed a freeroll! Maybe it’s because I suck at this, but I think the bigger problem is every freeroll is a massive entry GPP with hundreds of thousands of lineups. When it’s free, people are to take crazy risks with players and some of those crazy combos will be the perfect lineup. Why not do a freeroll every now and then with only a 100 people? That would stop the impossibly high cash lines in freerolls.

    Or at least do a regular GPP once a week where the payout structure is a lot more spread out. It is very disheartening for a player like me to spend hours research, get a score in the high 300s and walk away only with $10 on a $2 entry. The system as it stands makes it nearly impossible for someone who can only afford $3 a night to not lose everything eventually. I have moved most of my playing to a new site, and you know what, I’m having fun again. I won $25 on a $1 entry. Sure, you won’t get rich playing there, but it would have taken a huge score on Fanduel to turn $1 into $25.

    Their stubborn greed is killing them. When I see myself hitting last place in 50/50 with a researched lineup, that tells that there are no newcomers anymore. No one who just joins and throws up a random lineup to test the waters.

  • emnj69

    the sites mostly cater to the sharks which are a few folks-the sharks depend on the little fish which are the majority to eat-it is in the sites and the sharks best interest to keep the little guy around as without them the sharks go hungry and the sites will die. I am a little fish that has taken out the sharks before but it pains me seeing my few lineups going against there thousands.

  • JimmyTango

    It doesn’t take long for new players to realize they can’t win and move on to something else to get their dopamine rush. FD and DK are in a tough spot. I suspect that’s why they keep experimenting with new formats. Trying to find a way to convince old players to return.

  • deejones49

    They have to offer a huge first place prize to get the big bankrolls to max enter.They need to lower the rake and fix the prize structures or the sites are doomed

  • d735123

    Look at horse racing. A couple of times over the years, the whales (or sharks, in DFS terms) got too big. Initially, the tracks’ response is to cater to the whales, thinking (shortsightedly) that all this extra handle is wonderful. But the whales always get too big and then the fish stop playing. No new fans (who wants to lose track take plus whale take?), no growth, and handle eventually declines.

    The tracks (some at least) slowly reacted to lessen the influence of the whales. In the early 2000s it was the rebate shops. More recently, it’s been computerized robotic wagering. Who knows what it will be next, but there will be another edge that somebody discovers, exploits to the max, and ultimately negatively affects the game — for them, for the fish, and for the tracks.

    Can’t really blame the edge exploiters (as long as what they’re doing is legal). It’s the people offering the game (tracks or DFS sites) that have to choose between short-term vs. long-term gain. And it’s always the former.

  • Srmustangs

    These guys are basically just following the failed policies of horse racing. Increasing takeout equals less churn and less winners meaning less play. They try to sugarcoat it paying out 25 percent of the field but it’s a mirage as people go broke just as fast. I never understood why cash games are raked so high at basically a -125 vig. They never differentiated themselves vs sports betting at a comparable price. Just short sighted failed policies to try to pay back shareholders in the short term. Screwing affiliates, ruining the refer a friend model which gets them no sign ups now, destroying the fpp program , and then lying to us saying certain changes would be better for the player when they never were and just used for a cash grab to expand bottom line all left a bad taste in the mouth of the core user who as the article suggested has moved on to other things. I highly doubt this leadership which amazingly has such little buzz or social media following would be able to capitalize correctly on impending sports betting legislation. Many of the big volume guys have disappeared and at this pace many more will soon to follow. Greed and poor leadership has stunted future growth. Must suck to have been so close to an ipo and cashing out to being stuck in a rut of 0 profitability and gouging your core customer.

  • tarheel66

    SINGLE entry Tournaments are the way to go. NO sharks with 150 entries and everyone gets ONE SHOT. But sites won’t do that because they lose all that Shark money.

  • wolfjb1

    From the article: That scenario projects a decrease in DFS total entry fees to $2.5 billion by 2020.

    Yeah. Right. They’re struggling.

    It’s a random weekday in February and FanDuel will fill every single large field GPP. The sites run large field GPPS just for the two-game late slate every day and they always fill. Always. When was the last time you saw any major overlay (for me, I recall major overlay in the 2017 NFL season, which was a lifetime ago)?

    The sites are doing fine. They are growing slower than they were in the past, but that’s because they grew too rapidly.

  • celtics2448

    @wolfjb1 said...

    From the article: That scenario projects a decrease in DFS total entry fees to $2.5 billion by 2020.

    Yeah. Right. They’re struggling.

    It’s a random weekday in February and FanDuel will fill every single large field GPP. The sites run large field GPPS just for the two-game late slate every day and they always fill. Always. When was the last time you saw any major overlay (for me, I recall major overlay in the 2017 NFL season, which was a lifetime ago)?

    The sites are doing fine. They are growing slower than they were in the past, but that’s because they grew too rapidly.

    Both sites took hundreds of millions of dollars in funding from investors, if we high ball the rake and say it’s 20%, that’s a combined $500 million in revenue, but that’s before paying back the investors at an undisclosed rate and paying vendors, etc. etc. The struggles all go back to the “ad-blitz”, if they had just advertised a quarter of the amount they did, which still would’ve been obnoxious, they would both almost definitely be profitable

  • pointsmuncher

    I’m just a casual player that started in 2014 and played about $25 a weekend during NFL. If I won some I would carry it over to NBA and then to MLB as each season ended. I haven’t played for about 6 months now at all. The money was irrelevant honestly, I make enough that $25 here and there just bought enough chips to play the games and not feel any stress about it. I really think I’m about as average a player as it gets. Just wanted to chip my thoughts in on this because I read the article on Yahoo and wondered what the feedback would be on this website (I used to read it religiously trying to find an edge) and how people were viewing the industry as a whole. I stopped playing because it got too frustrating to immediately count a lineup out if it wasn’t perfect for the week. Taking a loss is probably easier if you are running 100 lineups or 25 lineups but with 1 lineup it sucks. Then would come back here on Monday morning and the feedback would just be ‘make better lineups’. I get it, I really do, but I can’t make a perfect lineup. That doesn’t take skill, it just takes a ton of luck and maybe enough entries to give yourself a fighting chance. All the reasons the pros on these forums are laughing in your heads as you read ‘this idiot expected to win a million dollars with 1 lineup in the Sunday Million’ are the reasons the target audience is tapped out and isn’t coming back after watching the ads and giving it a shot. This isn’t a casual hobby anymore, just being on here proves that. Maybe in 2014 when you could still make a mistake in a lineup and manage to compete for a nice prize anyway. Regardless of the emails I get from DK and FanDuel with special offers or bonuses. I can’t beat the games. And I’m fairly intelligent and love sports. Its a shark filled world and the little guy gets eaten alive. But there are no little guys out there who dream of being sharks that haven’t already given it a shot and failed. The ecosystem left will eat away at each other’s profits long-term while the sites skim high rake until about 2020-2021.

  • FantasyDraftSupport

    • FantasyDraft Representative

    @deejones49 said...

    They need to lower the rake

  • depalma13

    @tarheel66 said...

    SINGLE entry Tournaments are the way to go. NO sharks with 150 entries and everyone gets ONE SHOT. But sites won’t do that because they lose all that Shark money.

    Not until they stop the lineup sellers.

  • d735123

    The sharks are done now too. Once you see a pro, who more than anybody knows that their edge depends on knowing or doing something that everyone else doesn’t know or do, selling that edge for just $29.95 or whatever, you know the game is up.

  • Roma315

    No shark by any means but I’ve almost stopped playing completely. It’s just not fun anymore. To make any decent money you need to be in the top 10. I’ll still play some golf and baseball when it’s back but that’s it. Not the same volume as I played before. The buy ins increased and the prize pool decreased. Putting my money in crypto now (starting investing before the boom.)

  • Boooooourns

    • 2016 DraftKings FHWC Finalist

    I have nothing to back me up on this but I think that the payout structures are stretched out too much on GPPs. I think they should get rid of the whole minimum cash bracket and give out bigger prize amounts to a lesser percent. I don’t enter GPPs to win half of my entry back with a mediocre lineup. I’d rather win more with a good lineup.

  • FantasyDraft_Rep

    • FantasyDraft Representative

    Speaking of rake, keep a look out for Half the Rake GPPs coming to FantasyDraft when we return from the All-Star break!

  • jmo26

    From the article: “‘Their best bet is to reactivate the roughly 85% of customers they’ve already acquired and then lost (i.e., churned),’ is the advice for DraftKings and FanDuel provided in the report.”

    No kidding.

    Also, no chance… unless some serious house cleaning occurs, and people with actual foresight start making decisions over there.

  • damionismyname

    @txdave41 said...

    free

    Fanduel offers nothing for customers who’ve deposited hundreds or thousands of dollars to get them back. I haven’t played on FD in about a month because I’m tried of just depositing and having a late scratch or an injury immediately but at least Dk offers daily freerolls. Fanduel really has been quiet on this front and its kinda pathetic tbh. The only freerolls they have are sponsored ones where you have to download something to get into a 50k person gpp to win $100. That’s not getting customers back, sorry.

  • billholler

    FD has lost about 2 years (at least last 2 NFL seasons) to Texas residents for no reason whatsoever. How many tens of millions of free money did they lose?

  • X Unread Thread
  • X Thread with New Replies*
  • *Jumps to your first unread reply

Subforum Index

RotoGrinders.com is the home of the daily fantasy sports community. Our content, rankings, member blogs, promotions and forum discussion all cater to the players that like to create a new fantasy team every day of the week.

If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling 1-800-GAMBLER (1-800-426-2537) (IL). Gambling problem? Call 1-800-Gambler (NJ/WV/PA), 1-800-9-WITH-IT (IN), 1-800-522-4700 (CO) or 1-800-BETS OFF (IA). 21+. NJ/PA/WV/IN/IA/CO/IL only.