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  • WCHprime

    Anyone check the payouts recently for the $4 20 max and the $8 ($100k to 1st) dk tournaments for NBA?
    They either have

    • 1) Top 5 pay out 31-36% of the total prize pool in the $8 100k to first. -http://imgur.com/6OJh5Tw
    • 2) 1st place get only 4.16% of the total prize pool in the $4 20 max (Usually 4-5%). Top 10 is roughly 12.75% – http://imgur.com/pLyqkR2

    I find both of these payout structures extremely frustrating for both contests because getting first in the $4 pretty much feels like I’m being cheated and anything less than a top 5 finish in the $8 tourney is nothing. Getting 9th-10th in the $8 (100k to1st) is $700, that is 0.133% of the total prize pool. Don’t get me wrong, $700 is not nothing but considering how hard it is to get even get 10th, this feels like complete bullshit.

    To put this in another perspective and show how ridiculous this payout structure is in a legit scenario. Lets apply our payout structure to the 2016 WSOP $10k main event where they had 6737 entrants – http://imgur.com/a/43aVd

    This is the result – http://imgur.com/a/l6KyQ

    • 1) In our $8 pay out structure, 9th place would only get 84k of the 63 million prize pool, less than 10% of what the the 10th place winner got in their payout. 1st place is 140x what 9th place is getting. The fall off from 3rd place to 5th place is also ridiculous
    • 2) In our $4 pay out structure, 1st place got 2.638 million, 33% of the what the 1st player winner got in their payout. 1st to 9th seems to be resonable at first glance, but when you compare it to to the total prize pool, it is complete shit.

    Both of these payouts are extremely terrible from a game design standpoint. If these were the real structures in the 2016 WSOP main event, you will see everybody in their community speak up about it. Even with the original payouts they have, they have ICM deals made all the time when the final table dwindles down to reduce variance. But in the case of DFS where we don’t have that, they make matters worst through their payout structure.

    This is the payout structure we use to have more frequently – http://imgur.com/9aHZ8Gz
    Where, top 10 is anywhere from 20-26%.
    I find this payout structure much more rewarding considering how hard it is to get top 1% finishes. It is nowhere near perfect but considering the payouts they are using now. It is far superior.

    I’m not sure why this subject isn’t getting more attention in our community. All this tells me is that DK wants to attract more players with their flashing “100k to 1st” and doesn’t care one bit about the existing player base. That or the game designers over at DK have no clue what the hell they are doing. Making the payout worst only drives up the variance, it doesn’t make it any more skill based. Notorious also has an article regarding the million makers https://rotogrinders.com/lessons/understanding-the-payout-structure-of-large-events-775341

    Happy to hear your thoughts.

  • randlan

    I’ve been very unhappy with DK contest structure lately. It’s annoying – especially the $4 contests with max 20 entries and a terribly small top prize – but it just means that I reduce my play on DK and play a bit more on FD.

    Assuming that DK likes money, eventually they will come to their senses.

  • tonytone1908

    I just can’t play DK because any tourny I ever want to enter pays out 10% or less to first place. It seems they spread the payouts a little more so it’s a little easier to cash but I agree, 100k for 1st and 2k for 10th is just crazy. I’m not using exact examples but man, if a half point took me from 100k to 2k that would really disappoint me. I play FD and once I dropped from a tie for 1st to a tie for 2nd once which dropped me from like 6700 to 3500 by literally I think .2 points. Couldn’t really complain but if I was a half point back in 10th place for 1k that’s just ridiculous. Do we really need 100k for 1st? Why not 50k and people that cash actually get a decent cash. Most people will deposit once or twice, come close to the cash line and never play again. Dropping that 100k for 1st to 50k and spreading it out will enable more people to at least min cash and have more interest in continuing to play.

  • cmbarbee226

    Did the tournament fill? If so why would DK change anything?

    Personally I like to enter the tournaments they create when the large GPP full. More balance to the structure.

  • WCHprime

    I don’t think DK will come to their senses. They have a monopoly on the market right now, the NBA contests are filling no matter what they do every night.

  • DoubleTime

    • 2016 King of Summer: August

    Agreed… I regularly email DK about it, think people should let them know if they don’t like stuff. IMO the problem in many is they are paying too much of the field, it doesn’t leave enough money for the rest of the spots.

    In the short term, they can throw out any structure they want and people will continue to play. Think that is where we are at now, they are putting out garbage and people are reluctantly playing. Over time it will cause problems. And the poker analogy is perfect, I don’t think anybody really likes these structures.

    Money talks tho, and I’m sure they have people analyzing this like crazy. I’m just worried the only thing they are analyzing is how to maximize profits today, and not considering the future.

    They really are ruining the game with these pay structures. If you don’t finish in the top few spots you are SOL. It used to be different when they paid less of the field.

  • WCHprime

    @DoubleTime said...

    I regularly email DK about it, think people should let them know if they don’t like stuff

    What do they say when you email them?

    I just feel like they’ll give you the usual customer service response and make you feel you are getting your response through when it is likely nothing is being done. This issue needs to be brought up by people with more power in the industry.

  • mccoolio

    I believe it has progressively gotten much worse on DK. Payout has been either extremely top-heavy or very small % of pool. No in-betweens it seems. I absolutely loathe the 1.5x min cash on a lot of their GPPs as well. Its just a losing proposition for most, but especially for the casuals. I’m basically retiring from DK because of the poor structures. I was strictly a GPP player but it just doesn’t allow for me to continue. I could take up cash game play but I’m too impatient.

  • futoo

    would be better for the casual player for the small entry max games to have a larger winning payout,and less on the crazy 8s, as a casual player has almost no chance against a hundred sharks who put in 150 entries each

  • XxHeisenbergxX

    Great post. Having gambled online for many years there is one thing I have learned. Nobody cares about us or what we think. Its all about the $$$.

    I have watched so many websites all go bye bye thru the years from sports betting, to the crash of online poker.

    In my opinion this will end up in the same boat. Either that or it will be the same 100 sharps competing against each other daily. The entry fees and the rake are retarded. And because I practice discipline because I love to gamble, since the price hike in the tourneys I have gone from 25.00 a day to 4.00 a day in the quarter arcades just to have something to watch.

    I agree with everything you have said but its falling on deaf ears. I tell all my friends this.. Fantasy sports will eventually end up like online poker because of greed. No one believes me but seeing so many sites come and go this to wont last and they wont have anyone to blame but themselves.

    These sites get no sympathy from me when they end up in the shitter. My advice for players with large bank rolls make sure you get your cash before the disaster takes place. Cause it will happen.

  • jdelsas

    In my opinion, they need to limit the payout structure to the top 20% of the field getting paid instead of the top 24% they use in most contests. Cash lines would obviously go up in GPPs but I don’t think by a large margin, as the scores between the top 20% and and top 24% usually don’t vary too heavily from my experience. This would at least allow people to get 2x their money on entries that min cash, instead of getting raked an additional 50% (in theory) by min cashing under the current environment.

  • ASalvaro

    i would cut down on the number of people that win….who the heck cares about winning $6 for your $4 entry

  • makeitra1n

    @ASalvaro said...

    i would cut down on the number of people that win….who the heck cares about winning $6 for your $4 entry

    That for sure won’t happen.I absolutely agree with you but according to both companies it’s much better that more people get paid than less.which business wise makes sense.it allows people to stay in longer.

    That it screws you,me,and anyone else that doesn’t like it well umm who cares?they don’t have to cater to us,contests keep filling,which means their business strategy is working.all about the benjamins lol

  • DonkeyDFS

    Do you know what draws casual players to play in these DK contests? The chance to put up $8 and walk away with $100k. If they don’t make the contest payout structure so top heavy, a lot of the casual players won’t bother to play. If the casual players stop playing, you’ll end up with nothing but sharps playing each other, which is unsustainable.

    Bottom line, the flashy big numbers to 1st place is what gets people to enter tournaments, not a better payout structure.

    And the only thing the community could do is boycott those tournaments, but then there should be huge overlay, and people would join anyway lol. So it’s highly unlikely to change, and will probably get worse.

  • WCHprime

    @DonkeyDFS said...

    Do you know what draws casual players to play in these DK contests? The chance to put up $8 and walk away with $100k. If they don’t make the contest payout structure so top heavy, a lot of the casual players won’t bother to play. If the casual players stop playing, you’ll end up with nothing but sharps playing each other, which is unsustainable.

    I agree with you that this draws the casual players from playing. However, it does not make a difference if 1st place pays 100k (19% of the prize pool of 525k) or 52-65k (10-12.5% of the prize pool). The casual will see $8 to win 52k to 65k for 1st and still enter the contest. These payouts structures don’t make any sense because they don’t have to go to such extremes to attract players which is the point I’m trying to make. Make the payout structure 20-26% to top 10 like it used to be and stop changing it every single day.

    The bottom line is the game designers over at DK have no clue what they are doing. DK has a monopoly on the market and it doesn’t matter what payout structure they make, its getting filled every night. I am just trying to make this aware so that it becomes big enough to a big part of the community.

    Just look at the $4 20max nba contest for tomorrow’s slate, 1st place pays 3.33% and 10th place pays .66%. I might as well just play cash games because these payouts are borderline unplayable.

  • tyleh

    great post! they definitely need to fix this. Poker WSOP payout structure would work out way better and way more fair. it would definitely help their business and retain more people.

  • mabrla

    I can say whole-heartedly that I wouldn’t play these degen NBA slates without 100k up top. I’m sure a lot of people are in my boat as well. That is the whole draw. Hell, I have skipped every slate that doesn’t have 100k up top. That’s a big deal to a people, and how these things fill.

    IDK what’s going on with the other NBA tournaments though…b/c again…I would have no interest in any 2 game NBA tournament without 100k up top at this point. Has to be the case for a majority of other people or they wouldn’t do it.

  • Zieg30

    • 525

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @mabrla said...

    Has to be the case for a majority of other people or they wouldn’t do it.

    The big tournaments are limited. You have a couple on DK and FD each night at that’s it.

    I am routinely disappointed by ridiculously top heavy tournament payouts, but I play those tournaments regardless because I have no other legit options for large GPPs. No tournament needs a $100,000K payout for the top when that is 10% of the tournament size. Finishing first is largely a crapshoot. The difference between first and tenth in an NBA tournament could be a rebound and a single free throw. Spread out the payout amongst the top .5%, or the top 10 at least.

  • WCHprime

    @mabrla said...

    I can say whole-heartedly that I wouldn’t play these degen NBA slates without 100k up top. I’m sure a lot of people are in my boat as well. That is the whole draw. Hell, I have skipped every slate that doesn’t have 100k up top. That’s a big deal to a people, and how these things fill.

    IDK what’s going on with the other NBA tournaments though…b/c again…I would have no interest in any 2 game NBA tournament without 100k up top at this point. Has to be the case for a majority of other people or they wouldn’t do it.

    I’m surprised there are actually people that find 100k to 1st that much different from getting say 50k to 62k when the chances you hit are pretty much nothing. You are probably 10 times or more likely to get 10th than first place but 10th place pays practically nothing. So essentially you are throwing lottery tickets into the $8 tourney for a 1st – 5th place finish in hopes of a hit which is the image they are trying to avoid. They are trying to promote that it is a skill game to the legislators.

    Also, the contests filling as a result of it being 100k up top is completely invalid. The contests are filing night in, night out, no matter what. I don’t think I’ve seen a low dollar gpp that hasn’t filled in the past month in NBA. Heck they always make a second edition of the same tournament when it fills hours before lock. When that fills, they make 3rd/4th editions an hour before lock and they still fill.

  • mccoolio

    Still bullshit payouts

  • jimmyrad

    FD has been even worse lately. Basically any big MLB GPP over $3 is 20% to 1st (with more and more 25% to 1st’s creeping in). I wouldn’t even care or bother to say anything if half were like this, hell even 2/3rds, but they’re ALL 20%+ now. I just don’t get it. I mean I guess joe six pack will continue to donate to the same hedge fund type teams, forever churning that rake. Who cares if everyone else gets ground down to a nub in these lotto fever $^#&fests.

    At this point I fully expect both sites to “coincidentally” stumble upon 20% rake for football season, and just like the move to 15% it will be for all sports moving forward and locked in permanently.

  • Nosuckoutplz

    Draftkings has made the $4 games pretty much unplayable for me. Thank God FanDuel hasn’t done the same. I’ll play some of the $8’s and whatever else they come up with that has a more traditional payout, but I religiously check the payout structure on anything and everything I consider playing, because there’s no continuity and like I’ve told them, I’ll be dammed if I’m fortunite enough to finally win a big field lulsament and have it be a baby game.

    It’s similar to entering your DON lineup in a GPP or never playing a free/freeroll game with a lineup you haven’t put in a big GPP. If I shipped a huge field free game, I just wouldn’t be able to overcome that 😂

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