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  • bozzburg

    DFS is digging itself into the ground.

    They need to decrease the amount of entries permitted in these contests. I have been finding myself NOT in paying structures because someone has 50 of the same L/U taking all the pay spots. Its ridiculous!

    They also need to break up the pay slots a bit more as well too.

  • Nookx

    Rake is the biggest problem. Rake should be cut by 50% immediately. After that if the sites wanted they should make sport specific rake structures. As the games become harder and harder this will become more evident as more people will be loosers overall. The ratio of winners to losers is already way to low.

  • Epignosis

    • 703

      RG Overall Ranking

    What about us poor buggers who, on the odd occasion, enter a big lineup train because we are unable to edit our entries before lock?

  • cheezpizza

    @yountingly said...

    When did you start playing? NBA scoring is way up from a few seasons ago. FD also increased scoring for blocks and steals this year. There are factors as to why cash lines are up.

    It was 2014, I believe.

  • TnRiddles

    • Blogger of the Month

    @Nookx said...

    Rake is the biggest problem. Rake should be cut by 50% immediately. After that if the sites wanted they should make sport specific rake structures. As the games become harder and harder this will become more evident as more people will be loosers overall. The ratio of winners to losers is already way to low.

    How in the world would you expect a site to run on 8% rake?

  • TheRyanFlaherty

    The NBA discussion here brought out the memberberries for me – I feel like an old man, “When I started playing NBA DFS. You could live with x3 value and x4 was what I was hoping for. Back then you’d see maybe 2, 3 50 pt games a week. One would be a random WTF, one a star and the other Westbrook when Durant was sitting out” lol

    Seriously though it’s changed a ton in the few years I’ve been playing, and I really don’t think the above is much of an exaggeration.
    I’d say the big reasons why are pace of play (from 101 to 106.3 in those few years). Scoring, teams are scoring an avg of 5 more pts a game than when I started playing in 13/14.
    More rest/injury days. The amount of value plays on a nightly basis has skyrocketed over the years. Inflating scores and making lineup construction easier.
    And finally – DFS players are just better either by doing the work themselves or by allowing others to do it for them. There is just so much information out there it really kills the edge, unless you want to throw your money around going full contrarian.

    (Apologize for this post going OT to the initial point, but like I said…the previous posts caused me to reflect on some things. And I did respond to the actual topic earlier already)

  • shawnzhan

    • 31

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #29

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • 2019 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    Think about it like this – if an entire contest was a lineup train except yours, you basically have a 50/50 chance of winning a gpp with just one lineup.

  • KindGuy

    Sites need to make everything single lineup only!

  • w3stcoastoff3ns3

    single entry contest have worked great for me to avoid change and I only single entry large field gpps as well so trains don’t annoy me. This industry has much bigger issues imo.

  • Njsum1

    @elementasrat said...

    Sites need to make everything single lineup only!

    They would be out of business in a week. I personally like multi entry, I don’t do 150, yet I’ll do 20. I think there’s far more skill involved in multi entry than single entry. Plus, I dont just want to make 1 lineup, where’s the fun in that?

  • bozzburg

    @sochoice said...

    Not missing the point at all. You just aren’t good if you are bitching about losing to single lineups entered multiple times. I love seeing that, because those lineups crap out way more than they cash. Sounds like you are just making up excuses for why your results are terrible. If you were truly concerned by this, you’d only enter single entry tournaments. Somehow though, I bet you don’t and even if you did, you’d find something to complain about when you consistently don’t cash.

    Helpful post from a high ranking player! Lets not help, but assume and then tear apart what my opinion is.

    I do play S/E contests, but I also play GPP’s as well. I know the difference between the 2.

    Secondly, I wasn’t bitching about anything. I was pointing out that recently I have noticed stack trains with the same L/U which wasn’t a common occurence before. My opinion is the entry limit should be decreased. I’m sorry if you don’t agree with that. I would expect more from someone who is badged as contributor.

  • madmanjayWV

    @elementasrat said...

    Sites need to make everything single lineup only!

    Good gawd that would be horrible. Atrocious idea.
    FD is out there running a MLB 25c GPP with a $5K prize pool tonight — it’s horrid…and was filled prolly 6-7 hours b4 lock.

    I long for the days of the $1 150-max ENTRY sac fly with 75K + peeps entering it.

  • DSofM

    • 84

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #7

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • Blogger of the Month

    @bozzburg said...

    Helpful post from a high ranking player! Lets not help, but assume and then tear apart what my opinion is.

    I do play S/E contests, but I also play GPP’s as well. I know the difference between the 2.

    Secondly, I wasn’t bitching about anything. I was pointing out that recently I have noticed stack trains with the same L/U which wasn’t a common occurence before. My opinion is the entry limit should be decreased. I’m sorry if you don’t agree with that. I would expect more from someone who is badged as contributor.

    By more you mean “agreeing with someone who is clearly wrong about everything and is grasping at straws because he loses long term” ? Nothing sochoice said was wrong so…

  • awilson45

    Absolutely no problem with lineup trains. Now if say 5 users were each running the same train, then yes that would be a problem (stay away from large double ups, FYI). I don’t even play cash any more since lineup sharing is so frequent.

  • JH822547

    I don’t really understand why it’s advantageous to play the same line up multiple times in GPP.

    The GPP prize pay outs are stacked to pay out to the top prizes, so surely if you’ve got 50 line ups to make you want the best possible chance of hitting that top spot.

    When you play 50 line ups you are limiting that chance and when you do you are only get smaller prizes with the rest.

    I can understand 50 subtly different line-ups in big field events, but not the exact same line up.

  • bozzburg

    @Njsum1 said...

    They would be out of business in a week. I personally like multi entry, I don’t do 150, yet I’ll do 20. I think there’s far more skill involved in multi entry than single entry. Plus, I dont just want to make 1 lineup, where’s the fun in that?

    I don’t think it would be if it was that way in the very beginning.

    This L/U train recently started from what I have noticed. Even last year, I would see max entering in contests, but it was a different L/U for every entry.

  • sethayates

    @2Slik said...

    Trains in my opinion are a good thing to see as a tournament player. It shows me the user doesn’t understand (or didn’t have time to make at least a small wrinkle) competing for a singular grand prize and the variance phenomena. Yes it may clog up the top (Casually looking bad and possibly effecting the ecosystem) but systematically it gives the other users more of a chance at those elite payouts which as a tournament player you have to win to be +ev. Ultimately just like the stock market perception many times is more important than facts. I’m just saying I wouldn’t get discouraged by them and hopefully they figure something out.

    I agree with the other user about the lobbies. Yesterday an hour before lock FD’s biggest tournament $5 and under was a $500 prize pool. I really don’t understand what is going on over there. The casual player (critical fanbase for dfs) has nothing to play when they get home from work after 6 which is a major oversight…

    DK can fill a 5k/$1 lobby in 10 minutes. Of all things it was a day without NBA. Who’s running the show over there? What’s going to happen in June, filled tournaments at 4 with 3 hours of ticket game lobbies???

    This kind of depends. I’m one of the a-holes who will enter my lineup as a train on Yahoo (but not on DK). The reason I’m setting a train is because it allows me to drop down in buyin (to somewhat avoid other good players) while still getting enough money in play.

    With 10 entry max, lower rake and consistent overlay it is a lot easier to win over there. I’ve had a Yahoo account for a while but never really played there until the first NBA slate after the all star break. I deposited $50 and took 3rd place in a GPP for $1,000 on my very first night playing there. I pulled off $800 and left $200.

    Last Thursday I took 3rd place again in the $10 GPP. This time I had the lineup in twice so each hit for $750.00 ($1,000 + $500). That sucks for the person who took fifth because they only got paid $300 instead of $500. That’s their problem not mine.

    If the GPPs on Yahoo were bigger I probably wouldn’t duplicate my lineup but for right now I would be crazy not to when I’m absolutely crushing over there. A $50 deposit has already won me $3,684 and that’s just since the NBA All-Star break.

    In short, I’m going to get as much money down as I can at the low levels because for me, right now, it is +EV.

  • MrFantasy

    I was going to fire the $555 PGA Contest for fun tomorrow on Fanduel but $100,000 of the $300,000 prizepool goes to 1st place. Top 2% only gets 4x the buy in. What’s the point? If you don’t get 1st or 2nd your fighting for only half the prizepool after that. Forget that.

  • divusjulius

    • Blogger of the Month

    yes, the prize structure is an actual problem for dfs ecosystem

  • mike291md

    Guys agree that the prize structures need changing but I don’t understand why most think lineup trains aren’t an issue because when they place they directly destroy the payout structures for other players.

    Like Seth’s post stated, the one guy who took 5th won $200 less. So 5th place is essentially turned into like 10th place or whatever. It destroys the value of the rankings and the payouts. And is it really -EV when guys are killing it like Seth? Is it really -EV if said train lineup is a bought lineup? We all know the bought lineups are a problem but now you have bought lineups being trained into contests? And you just know that is going to be the reality of the situation if the sites don’t act.

    Trains and lineup buying need to be eliminated. They both destroy the payout/prize money structure. Just as with bought lineups, if you have multiple trains placing it’s pushing everything back and dicing up the payouts. So for instance, a 5k guaranteed tournament then gets shrunk to a 2k tournament but people are okay with that? I don’t see how they are good for prize structures even if you think they are -EV (which is debatable because you don’t know the player behind the train).

  • tomac

    deleted

  • tomac

    @shawnzhan said...

    Think about it like this – if an entire contest was a lineup train except yours, you basically have a 50/50 chance of winning a gpp with just one lineup.

    This assumes the two players entering lineups are of similar skill. Otherwise its not a 50/50 proposition.

  • CUTiger81

    To me trains aren’t an issue. I love when I see a lineup around mine that’s a train because I know if I can get ahead of it then I’m moving up significantly. The biggest issue with DFS right now IMO is the rake has gotten way too high and the GPP structures are atrocious. I don’t care about the 150 max entries although I prefer to play 3, 5 and 20 max when I can but understand 150’s are needed to boost prize pools. The big issue is the payout structures. It’s fine to run a Milly Maker occasionally but every damn day these tournaments are absurdly top heavy. It’s better for 90% of the field to pay out less spots and spread out the money more evenly.

  • TnRiddles

    • Blogger of the Month

    @CUTiger81 said...

    To me trains aren’t an issue. I love when I see a lineup around mine that’s a train because I know if I can get ahead of it then I’m moving up significantly. The biggest issue with DFS right now IMO is the rake has gotten way too high and the GPP structures are atrocious. I don’t care about the 150 max entries although I prefer to play 3, 5 and 20 max when I can but understand 150’s are needed to boost prize pools. The big issue is the payout structures. It’s fine to run a Milly Maker occasionally but every damn day these tournaments are absurdly top heavy. It’s better for 90% of the field to pay out less spots and spread out the money more evenly.

    Except the very FIRST thing I look a t for a GPP is the top prize, I dont really care if I min cash with a crappy lineup

  • KindGuy

    @mike291md said...

    Guys agree that the prize structures need changing but I don’t understand why most think lineup trains aren’t an issue because when they place they directly destroy the payout structures for other players.

    Like Seth’s post stated, the one guy who took 5th won $200 less. So 5th place is essentially turned into like 10th place or whatever. It destroys the value of the rankings and the payouts. And is it really -EV when guys are killing it like Seth? Is it really -EV if said train lineup is a bought lineup? We all know the bought lineups are a problem but now you have bought lineups being trained into contests? And you just know that is going to be the reality of the situation if the sites don’t act.

    Trains and lineup buying need to be eliminated. They both destroy the payout/prize money structure. Just as with bought lineups, if you have multiple trains placing it’s pushing everything back and dicing up the payouts. So for instance, a 5k guaranteed tournament then gets shrunk to a 2k tournament but people are okay with that? I don’t see how they are good for prize structures even if you think they are -EV (which is debatable because you don’t know the player behind the train).

    So what do you want to happen? You want the sites to make it mandatory that each lineup a user enters is unique? Lol.

  • mike291md

    @elementasrat said...

    So what do you want to happen? You want the sites to make it mandatory that each lineup a user enters is unique? Lol.

    Yes. Get rid of them. That was pretty much the point of my entire post. You think the way it works now is ideal? You have just 1 train in the money and it chops the entire pay structure up.

    I know, I know…“Make Better Lineups” and stuff. The sites clearly aren’t thriving with all the silly stuff (trains/bought lineups) going on. Again, rake has gone up and the prize pools have declined. So obviously, things DO NEED TO CHANGE. OP isn’t wrong and he speaks for the average DFS consumer more than the guys who want things to stay this way. This isn’t going to work long-term allowing people to buy lineups and dice up prize pools with trains. You can’t even offer the attractive prize pools for much longer if enough people aren’t sticking around to play.

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